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You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-)
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Russian Federation676 Posts
looks like a million years old build
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If you get a zerg walled into 1 base youve easentially won the game anyway wwhat happens after 99% of the time is a roach all in with no were near the amount required to win, speaking from a high diamond zerg point of view
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Looks interesting, will give it a try because of all the trouble I am having PvZ.
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Tried it and what warrick says seems to be true for gold league. The zerg seems to have insufficient roaches but is it possible for zerg to mass enough hydras + ling to win @@" sorry if this seems quite a noob question, gold leaguer here.
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On May 27 2011 12:30 EatThePath wrote:
What do you mean the middle pylon? I always wall in an L shape, not an arc.
What is an L-shaped wall? That shouldn't change the fact that you can get three drones on the middle pylon... or 2 middle pylons in your case?
On May 27 2011 14:35 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Well you can only have two drones attacking any pylon.
No, 3 can attack the middle pylon in a ramp block.
On May 27 2011 16:28 IIIOmegaIII wrote:i dont think its that easy tbh, still gonna take some time to get the pylon down. but give it a shot, might work out  )
Like I said you have to immediately respond with drones.
Edit: Just did a quick search-up on reddit, and this thread details what I'm trying to say a lot better.
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On May 27 2011 17:10 Pamposek wrote:
You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-)
Yep and this happens in just about every game I play where it throws them off and tbh it doesn't matter when they start speed as it won't effect the battle in the end.
I recommend you try hydras vs 1/1 stalkers, they are so incredible bad it's funny. The best unit comp you can go for I guarantee are speed roaches with speedling off one base.
For the haters saying once a wall is made any build beats them, tell me a build and I will show you how the Zerg can blindy counter it while this build has none of it.
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Drone patrol at the ramp shuts this down, and if he scouts your twilight council (which is at your ramp) he should get a fast lair for detection and/or hydras depending on what you do. This shouldn't win in high-level games.
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On May 27 2011 23:13 FreezerJumps wrote:
Drone patrol at the ramp shuts this down, and if he scouts your twilight council (which is at your ramp) he should get a fast lair for detection and/or hydras depending on what you do. This shouldn't win in high-level games.
the problem is that it works, that makes me thinking about fairness.
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Idra is still banned on TL, isn't he? Would be way more fun if he had a saying in this thread...
I recommend you try hydras vs 1/1 stalkers, they are so incredible bad it's funny. The best unit comp you can go for I guarantee are speed roaches with speedling off one base.
funny how people still consider hydras an antigatewayunit (there is only 1player in the world that can win even though he built hydras), as FFs and blink both just crush them and for any usual gateway composition you need shittons of zerglings as a buffer, so actually it is the zergling+rangeunit composition that is OK...
on the build:
I have encountered something similar, and I have to say... blink is soooo fucking strong, it just denies you to play reactive, because you have to have an overwhelming force before the combat to beat blink stalkers, which you don't get without a second hatch, so this build is extremly potent imo.
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To those who say that hydra is the answer: it's not because by the time you tech to hydras the 'toss has a much more superior army (unless he goes strictly air). Also, you can't really break his front wall with it without giving him tons of time to respond/beat you. I've tried to nydus hydras in but it takes so much gas that by the time you get 10 hydras in his base he's got 25 stalkers to greet you.
So better is to just go straight for lair when he boxes you in, drone up and when you are saturated start pumping roaches. If you have two gas going early you will have the 200 for a nydus as well as decent amounts of roaches (it's usually the placement nydus 100 gas I have to save up for/pump lings). I go as quick as I can so I actually forego the metabolic boost usually since time is more important than fast lings. This is an all-in obviously and there are two caveats:
a) He has to kinda suck and not detect your nydus although occasionally my roach production is high enough that I can nydus out front of the main (if his whole base is covered with pylons/scouts) and still take out the front door/win.
b) You gotta hit him early because if he gets out more than one void ray you are pretty screwed.
I've got about 75% success against crappy diamond cheesers (I'm top 5 diamond) trying to pull this off on me. Usually they are trying to get their second base up and I can snipe the production pylons and bring in my queens for whatever air he has. Once you set up shop in his main you are pretty set. If he has 15 stalkers waiting you are screwed since you are trying an all-in.
(please note that this relies on a crappy opponent so chew with caution, it's meant for the lower guys like myself).
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On May 27 2011 17:10 Pamposek wrote:
You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-)
Sorry but this is a very ignorant and arrogant post.
Please, DO NOT post if you don`t have evidence or solid line of reasoning behind your discrediting claims, especially when you are trying to discredit strategy devised by a player of this caliber.
1.You think dude devised such a strategy, played over 50 games and forgot about the existence of hydras ?
2. You didn`t include any aspects of the situation. Your line of thinking: "he has gateway units only and hydras > gw units so this build is bad ! Just get hydras and win !"
3. You think players Kiwi played were bad and the build worked only because opponents lacked skill. This is a poor argument because :
a) the opposing player and his strategy has significant influence on how the other player`s performance looks like
b) it doesn`t mean that if the players were very good the build wouldn`t work - it very well could (and I won`t even mention the fact that Kiwi used many extraordinary builds like that to beat top-level players).
But good player will just steamroll you ...
You need a really solid line of reasoning to back up such a statement. Unfortunately, your post doesn`t include anything that could be termed as "solid", maybe except arrogance.
Please understand - I`m not picking on you, I`m not saying you are an idiot or that you are stupid. However, it looks like it was just your ego trying to look like a smartass and I`m merely stating a fact.
Sorry if it appears judgemental, it isn`t - but arrogant posts like that are detrimental to this forum and scare great players away from posting there.
People need to stop doing this. Please, have some humility/sober self-assessment.
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On May 27 2011 23:42 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 17:10 Pamposek wrote:
You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-) Sorry but this is a very ignorant and arrogant post. Please, DO NOT post if you don`t have evidence or solid line of reasoning behind your discrediting claims, especially when you are trying to discredit strategy devised by a player of this caliber. 1.You think dude devised such a strategy, played over 50 games and forgot about the existence of hydras ? 2. You didn`t include any aspects of the situation. Your line of thinking: "he has gateway units only and hydras > gw units so this build is bad ! Just get hydras and win !" 3. You think players Kiwi played were bad and the build worked only because opponents lacked skill. This is a poor argument because : a) the opposing player and his strategy has significant influence on how the other player`s performance looks like b) it doesn`t mean that if the players were very good the build wouldn`t work - it very well could (and I won`t even mention the fact that Kiwi used many extraordinary builds like that to beat top-level players). You need a really solid line of reasoning to back up such a statement. Unfortunately, your post doesn`t include anything that could be termed as "solid", maybe except arrogance. Please understand - I`m not picking on you, I`m not saying you are an idiot or that you are stupid. However, it looks like it was just your ego trying to look like a smartass and I`m merely stating a fact. Sorry if it appears judgemental, it isn`t - but arrogant posts like that are detrimental to this forum and scare great players away from posting there. People need to stop doing this. Please, have some humility/sober self-assessment.
Too much of a flame. Tho I agree with your points. That reply was very igornant. Tho, lets try not to make a fight from a guy that has his own opinion, but say our opinion about kiwi's build. I like this because it is disadvantage for zerg players to pull out their drones from the mineral line where you can simply cancel out the cannons when you see drones running down to save his hatchery.
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On May 27 2011 23:42 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 17:10 Pamposek wrote:
You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-) Sorry but this is a very ignorant and arrogant post. Please, DO NOT post if you don`t have evidence or solid line of reasoning behind your discrediting claims, especially when you are trying to discredit strategy devised by a player of this caliber.
You seem to think this is ROOTKiWiKaKi, but it is not. This is a Master-league player who uses the same handle on Battle.net.
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On May 27 2011 23:23 Big J wrote:Idra is still banned on TL, isn't he? Would be way more fun if he had a saying in this thread... Show nested quote +
I recommend you try hydras vs 1/1 stalkers, they are so incredible bad it's funny. The best unit comp you can go for I guarantee are speed roaches with speedling off one base.
funny how people still consider hydras an antigatewayunit (there is only 1player in the world that can win even though he built hydras), as FFs and blink both just crush them and for any usual gateway composition you need shittons of zerglings as a buffer, so actually it is the zergling+rangeunit composition that is OK... on the build: I have encountered something similar, and I have to say... blink is soooo fucking strong, it just denies you to play reactive, because you have to have an overwhelming force before the combat to beat blink stalkers, which you don't get without a second hatch, so this build is extremly potent imo.
I can second this. I have done tons of testing in games and with the unit tester map and hydra vs blink stalker will get straight up smashed. Hydra are just 2 squishy vs anyone with ANY kind of micro that can just blink the damaged stalkers back. Hydra's just suck all together and the ONLY time they are good is for extream timing pushes or if you have roach or ling to buffer the damage while you let the hydra do the DPS. They are sadly a poor investment cost in most cases and a sad disapointment from thier gloary days of sc1 
Roaches / lings are still a better investment vs blink stalker and you need to micro accordingly so evreytime a stalker push happens you snipe 1 or 2 stalkers with roach / lings instead of just A moving the stalker blob. Either way if you are truely walled in your best bet is a very fast nydus worm in the toss's base or just outside it with OL vision to help smash the gate.
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tons of transitions off the 3pylon+cannon opening...
1) Get nexus and get 6 gate warp gates
2) Blink stalker as you wrote
3) MC originally used the three pylon opening on TAL and got stargate (phoenix then VR, basically GG killing overlords and queens)
4) any sort of templar tech
really, its just an opening you can transition any way you like.
try the "bisu" build from BW after pylon blocking:
phoenix into DT's (kill overlords, then kill drones with dts)
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On May 27 2011 23:42 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 17:10 Pamposek wrote:
You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-) Sorry but this is a very ignorant and arrogant post. Please, DO NOT post if you don`t have evidence or solid line of reasoning behind your discrediting claims, especially when you are trying to discredit strategy devised by a player of this caliber.
He does have evidence: He's watching the bloody replays. Only his first paragraph was speculating about hydras, the rest of his post was not about that.
Also what makes you think this player is of any particularly noteworthy caliber?
3. You think players Kiwi played were bad and the build worked only because opponents lacked skill. This is a poor argument because :
Pamposek newer called Fiwi (hint: not Kiwi) bad. He also didn't say it'd work only because the opponents lacked skill, he merely pointed out that they were actually bad in those replays.
b) it doesn`t mean that if the players were very good the build wouldn`t work - it very well could (and I won`t even mention the fact that Kiwi used many extraordinary builds like that to beat top-level players).
Now you're the one arguing without evidence. The consensus on the strategy forum is that the burden of proof is on the OP to provide high-quality replays.
Also, where is *your* evidence that KiwiKaki (who is not the OP) has used builds like this one to beat top-level players?
You need a really solid line of reasoning to back up such a statement. Unfortunately, your post doesn`t include anything that could be termed as "solid", maybe except arrogance. Please understand - I`m not picking on you, I`m not saying you are an idiot or that you are stupid. However, it looks like it was just your ego trying to look like a smartass and I`m merely stating a fact.
TBH, it is your post that comes across as arrogant, not Pamposek's (IMO).
Sorry if it appears judgemental, it isn`t - but arrogant posts like that are detrimental to this forum and scare great players away from posting there.
It is judgemental. You're saying his post only includes arrogance and that it looks like his ego is trying to look like a smartass -- and that that is a fact. Proclaiming that your opinion is a fact doesn't make this any less judgemental. (If anything, it comes across as arrogant from your side.)
Also, I don't think any great players have even replied to this thread.
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Just posting to tell you I love your ID 
Haven't tried the build yet, but it sounds great, I'll have to give it a try soon as I'm having lots of troubles vs Zergs lately, I'll use this spot to post my comments later.
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Disappointed that you didn't properly credit CombatEx for the only PvZ opening that he knows
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As far as responses to this why not macro 2nd hatch? I sadly do not have any replays recent enough (don't save cheese replays generally), but the few times this has happened and I was unable to prevent the block I simply went with a roach/speedling all in. Roaches can bust the front taking no numbers losses. You also don't need 2 hatches worth of income, just two hatches worth of production. Of course you also would need to sac an overlord to ensure its a gateway follow up and not something that requires a different response or special defense.
This is only Diamond level though, so I'm unsure about higher skill levels. Do you really "have" to nydus once people are better?
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EPT
