EPT[G] PvZ Pylon Block into 3 Gate Blink - Page 3
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Azide
Canada566 Posts
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
On May 28 2011 01:28 Lansky wrote: As far as responses to this why not macro 2nd hatch? I sadly do not have any replays recent enough (don't save cheese replays generally), but the few times this has happened and I was unable to prevent the block I simply went with a roach/speedling all in. Roaches can bust the front taking no numbers losses. You also don't need 2 hatches worth of income, just two hatches worth of production. Of course you also would need to sac an overlord to ensure its a gateway follow up and not something that requires a different response or special defense. This is only Diamond level though, so I'm unsure about higher skill levels. Do you really "have" to nydus once people are better? Nydus DOESNT work. Mass roach w/ speed + sling is the best response I have seen so far IF I choose to go for my 3 gate blink. If you do scout the twilight you are in great shape and Ill be editing my post for the perfect way to counter... The main thing is you need the roach speed. I'm working on finding the ideal way to deal with it too. | ||
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ondik
Czech Republic2908 Posts
edit: to be clear I meant 3 cannons outside of high ground range, yea, he can try to run by but will lose a lot of units (+you have wallin at home) | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
On May 28 2011 01:43 ondik wrote: OP: how about 1 pylon and 3 cannons? Yes, it's 100 minerals more but stops your opponent for much longer + if he really want to break the contain, he will lose units. edit: to be clear I meant 3 cannons outside of high ground range, yea, he can try to run by but will lose a lot of units (+you have wallin at home) The problem I have with that is you need to wait for your pylon to finish so you won't have a wall. I mean that's the main reason. Next reasons, you need to make pylons at your base and that adds up, sure you need them later when your opponent breaks the wall but the extra 200 minerals for the pylons early is a big investment. Additionally they can take down the wall with one spine crawler if you make a wall, if you don't make a wall they can pull drones and destroy your buildings as they're warping in. Because of that it's not feasable at all. | ||
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tdynasty
Canada220 Posts
Team Liquid needs a "Cheese" Forum. Where all the cheesy, rush builds with discussions can be assembled together. By the way this type of strat is nothing new. More or less fell out of style because Zerg players learned how to counter this type of stuff. Just like Zerg learned to fight the 4 gate. And now you rarely 4 gate a zerg. Now people are complaining about zerg beating the 3 gate xpand. Just go back to OP strat number 1. Wall them in  .When they start Patroling a drone at the ramp. Go back to 4 gate! Then when they make 3 spine crawlers. GO BACK TO 3 GATE EXPAND! Protoss initiative for the win! It's actually funny how Lately on the ladder, I 4 gated quite a few zerg and outright won with ease seeing 2 spine crawlers still being made when I get to their base. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On May 27 2011 22:53 FiWiFaKi wrote: Yep and this happens in just about every game I play where it throws them off and tbh it doesn't matter when they start speed as it won't effect the battle in the end. I recommend you try hydras vs 1/1 stalkers, they are so incredible bad it's funny. The best unit comp you can go for I guarantee are speed roaches with speedling off one base. For the haters saying once a wall is made any build beats them, tell me a build and I will show you how the Zerg can blindy counter it while this build has none of it. No, even blink stalkers is not a sure win, there are blind counters to that too. There is no unbeatable build. What people are trying to say is that cannon contain vs hatch first puts protoss ahead by a significant amount such that whatever follow up/transition you do is not as important as the first 3 minutes of the game in and of itself. So I believe a guide should focus on those 3 minutes of the game. I can imagine something like sending two probes, and double teaming the drone at the ramp. But yeah, versus any good player they will have a drone patrolling and then your build is very behind since you walled in your main. So it's like 6 pooling against Terran in a way, you are putting the ball in the opponent's court. | ||
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nonethewiser
United States53 Posts
It works incredibly well, even against 7RR and the like. I usually follow it up with 3 gate zealots into dark templar or voidrays, but the game is usually over before my cyber finishes. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
I have not yet lost against a zerg that I managed to block, but every zerg I blocked reacted poorly... (Nydus/roachling allin) | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
Cancel hatch @ natural, take that drone and go scout his base forever (since he wont have a core for a long time) If he tries to nexus try to block + proxy hatch/cancel into evo chamber? Place hatch in main where creep will reach ramp. Pool/queendrone until hatch finishes.. Take two gas, Go lair first over ling speed. WIth only one cannon i don't think its worth it to invest in a crawler. Probably better just to make roaches and bust with those. Nydus is gimmicky, i don't trust it that early... I think i'd favor OL speed/drop. Same gas cost. Comes a bit later, doesn't require a drone, and can't be killed just by having a zealot on patrol. I'm trying not to assume that I know exactly what the protoss is doing. Twilight to me means i need to get detection. If I get pylon blocked I don't know if he's expanding or 4gate'ing. OL/drone scout should be able to tell me. Does protoss build stalker before killing scouting drone? Or does drone not get in because front door is completely walled ( which is plausible, since he's going blink) I'd like to try this later. maybe i can find a willing protoss. | ||
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stink123
United States241 Posts
The great thing about being blocked in by a protoss is that afterwards, protoss has 0 methods of scouting, so you can do anything you want since the protoss build order will be more delayed than yours. If he blindly counters you, it just becomes a normal game and you macro up. The hardest is when protoss FE's with multiple cannons, in that case you have to drone super hard and hope you find out what he's doing in time. I've tried this build many times, both executing as protoss and defending as zerg. I've never seen protoss win unless the zerg makes big mistakes. | ||
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Iggnite
Canada288 Posts
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terence158
Australia64 Posts
Do you have any replays where the opponent was more competent at breaking the contain. They both seemed to panic, the second one floated like 1k mins / 500 gas before putting down any building past the spawn pool. and it was quite obvious he didn't have a plan to deal with cannon contains. the first guy didn't even drone scout. I would like to see a replay where the opponent 13 scouts and you still manage to cannon contain; he then breaks the contain in short order and the blink stalkers are how you win. Otherwise, this strategy is resting on the laurels of a simple cannon contain, and the 3gate blink section is just useless. p.s. not a flame on your strat; just need better replays to demonstrate that this is a valid strategy. | ||
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Quochobao
United States350 Posts
Doesn't that shut this build down? | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
On May 28 2011 04:06 Quochobao wrote: Uhm, when the zerg scouts your forge, can't he just patrol a drone at ramp? From the 14 supply point to the 300 mineral point (to put down 3 pylons), there is ample time for the zerg to do so. Doesn't that shut this build down? It's only a three-page thread. Couldn't you read at least through the second page before posting? | ||
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nonethewiser
United States53 Posts
Uhm, when the zerg scouts your forge, can't he just patrol a drone at ramp? I don't understand why no one has mentioned baneling bust. Curious if macro hatch would work better. The point you guys are missing is that the build causes so much disruption in the Zerg's play (namely, it basically prevents developing the second hatch at all) that, even if the Zerg does break the contain, it is worth it economically, meaning that the Zerg player now has to both break the contain and counter (likely against a cannoned natural) in order to even the playing field. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
In general, I think the appropriate response to this is to just plant an inbase hatchery because you NEED that second hatch regardless of your game plan. My personal plan would be to tech up fast while droning hardcore. I have a massive tech advantage, research drop, get a hydra den, and pump speedlings on 2 inbase hatcheries, toss as many hydras in as you can manage, and go for a doomdrop. Hydra ling will murder smaller numbers of blink stalkers, and the timing hits with you quite a bit in the hole. What are you gonna do, put your tech behind even more to drop cannons in your base? I prefer drop to nydus because you can't just spot it and kill it with workers or 1 unit, and it costs the same gas to access. Also note that this ONLY works on ladder maps, and not most tournament maps. (they pretty much all have some kind of obstruction at the bottom of the ramp to prevent this kind of play - usually more applicable to bunker-blocking ramps.) | ||
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Mcawesome
11 Posts
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
Experiment with it please, if you lose to an all-in you will see where you can fix your mistakes. If you got VR or DT there is potential to lose to roach drops, hydra drops, banrling busts. 3 gate blink is perfect against any build. | ||
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terence158
Australia64 Posts
On May 28 2011 04:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: To those questioning the 3 gate blink, you have to realise how fine and what kind of work of art that build is. Perfect time for any roach pressure bling plays, mutas, nyduses, drops. Experiment with it please, if you lose to an all-in you will see where you can fix your mistakes. If you got VR or DT there is potential to lose to roach drops, hydra drops, banrling busts. It's perfect against any build. Replays demonstrating this? I don't want to experiment with it, I play zerg; I want to see it in action to know if I need to worry about the blink follow-up or just the contain. | ||
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