|
On June 01 2011 16:03 hocash wrote:
Hope no one thinks this is a flame - but isn't successfully getting down the pylon block and cannon(s) basically game over if you're close to equal skill level? Assuming, of course, you scout for a hidden expo and keep a proxy hatch out of your base.
Seems like Zerg is so far behind when this happens that there's really nothing to do but make a bunch of stuff and go kill them.
You're basically correct.
Once the contain is up Zerg is so far behind* he can only try some kind of onebase all-in with Protoss can counter with a variety of builds. Blink Stalker is a very good counter but Voidray/Phoenix also works or Expo and mass gateway or ....
*Yes the Protoss delays his core/gateway alot, but its about the larva, not the minerals. On one base it is completely impossible for Z to build an economy and an army so if you chose to drone, Protoss gets so far ahead it's gg. A macro hatch is also bad since it puts you 300 mins behind and you don't receive the income boost from spreading your drones on two mineral lines (Sheth's post explains the importance of this).
|
Dear Protoss Players planning on using this,
Please gain vision around your base.
Sincerely, Mr. Nydus Worm
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-212400.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-212401.jpg)
|
Pylonblocks are always gay tho. Playing random, I only ever do it as punishing hat first since zergs shouldn't do it currently in zvp. It's just against my morale to do such freewin strategies. It doesn't really matter what you transition to from it, eventhough I used to do 3-4gate blink also. It doesn't feel like a fair win, similar as any other proxies really don't.
One minor advantage from playing random - tosses cant start forge first as often when playing zerg. A bit less bullshit to be seen.
|
At 1300 I haven't had amazing success. They can usually break your wall fairly quickly with a spine or 3 roaches, then rush to hydras which rape your blink stalkers no matter how amazing your micro is. I only win if they try anything else but hydra, which is a common response. I did win against hydra a few times but it's really not optimal. If they have good macro it's unwinnable.
|
Sometimes when I look at strats like these and just get sad and think back to the day when I thought playing Zerg was fun...
User was warned for this post
|
hmm. ive been playing this build with varying success. against the lower tier grandmaster pool on SEA and midmasters players on NA 1k-1.4k i have had relative success with this build. However against some of the stronger players ive faced (GMs), they tend to break down the wall with roaches very quickly and expand immediately after. then they throw down 5 spines or so when im gonna move out stuff the ramp full of roaches so i cant blink into the main past spines. after which he just masses lings for awhile and well it goes downhill from there. i was thinking maybe i should have chucked down maybe 2 cannons and another pylon further away when the roaches start hitting my pylon wall so roaches will need to come down the ramp and destroy all the cannons for him to get out. during which i go chuck sentries there, expand and contain rather than go blink. that way it would force him to stay 1 base but of course that would require greater investment. what do u guys think?
|
On June 03 2011 07:04 ForDarkness wrote:
hmm. ive been playing this build with varying success. against the lower tier grandmaster pool on SEA and midmasters players on NA 1k-1.4k i have had relative success with this build. However against some of the stronger players ive faced (GMs), they tend to break down the wall with roaches very quickly and expand immediately after. then they throw down 5 spines or so when im gonna move out stuff the ramp full of roaches so i cant blink into the main past spines. after which he just masses lings for awhile and well it goes downhill from there. i was thinking maybe i should have chucked down maybe 2 cannons and another pylon further away when the roaches start hitting my pylon wall so roaches will need to come down the ramp and destroy all the cannons for him to get out. during which i go chuck sentries there, expand and contain rather than go blink. that way it would force him to stay 1 base but of course that would require greater investment. what do u guys think?
But you don't know that he's doing that until he does it -- for all you know he's going one-base mutas or nydus, in which case you'd be defeated.
If your opponent breaks out with roaches early enough to establish an expansion then maybe you should take your own expansion and play a normal macro game.
|
Interesting interesting... time to refine a new build for ladder. 
|
|
|
After playing this some more, it can be an extremely strong strategy. It is however pretty easily countered if they can figure out what you're up too.
A macro hatch is also bad since it puts you 300 mins behind and you don't receive the income boost from spreading your drones on two mineral lines
I think this is a bit out of context, as in if you get Pylon caged, adding that Hatchery will allow you to actually spend your money. Protoss spends 300 on Pylons and 150+ on Cannons, I think you're ok to put a Hatch down in your main.
Which leads back to what I was saying, is that the correct response to this is-in base Hatch, then Nydus Hydra/Ling out and go kill him. You don't even need to land in his base with the Nydus.
Hydras dominate Blink Stalkers unless the ratio is 2/1 for the Stalkers (or so it feels sometimes)
|
On June 03 2011 22:18 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 07:04 ForDarkness wrote:
hmm. ive been playing this build with varying success. against the lower tier grandmaster pool on SEA and midmasters players on NA 1k-1.4k i have had relative success with this build. However against some of the stronger players ive faced (GMs), they tend to break down the wall with roaches very quickly and expand immediately after. then they throw down 5 spines or so when im gonna move out stuff the ramp full of roaches so i cant blink into the main past spines. after which he just masses lings for awhile and well it goes downhill from there. i was thinking maybe i should have chucked down maybe 2 cannons and another pylon further away when the roaches start hitting my pylon wall so roaches will need to come down the ramp and destroy all the cannons for him to get out. during which i go chuck sentries there, expand and contain rather than go blink. that way it would force him to stay 1 base but of course that would require greater investment. what do u guys think? But you don't know that he's doing that until he does it -- for all you know he's going one-base mutas or nydus, in which case you'd be defeated. If your opponent breaks out with roaches early enough to establish an expansion then maybe you should take your own expansion and play a normal macro game.
Anyway what happened on what of the games was something like this. we cross spawned on metalopolis, so i put a forge at 12 and walled him off later on not letting him expand. in response to my wall off he just went for a build similar to a roach rush once he broke 1 pylon he just streamed the roaches out to destroy the cannon and headed straight for my base. i put 1 cannon down in front of my base while he was moving across the map and he didnt bother pushing in, he did however scout the forge being chrono boosted. he mentioned later that when he saw the forge being chrono-ed he figured it would likely be blink stalkers. he expanded as soon as he broke my cannon and started droning hard while his roaches were on the move. once he had something like 38 drones he just started massing lings and he also got himself an additional macro hatch. he had 32 on mins 6 on gas if i remembered correctly. he left some lings all around the map to see when i moved out. the moment i left my base he chucked down 5 spines. so when i got to his base. he had 5 spines + mass speedling and like maybe 7-8 roaches plus a queen all stuffed on the ramp. from there i found it really hard to do anything. i could try and out micro and snipe units but his production was simple insane. and soon it was difficult to engage once he had a shit ton of lings and his roach speed kicked in. and im sure as you can all guess the game just went down hill from there.
i should probably post the rep of the game and get your opinions. i'll try to put it up after i finish my paper on monday. till then. Back to study!!!! damned university exams. =(
|
why didnt you put the replay up where you tried it on me and i built a hatchery with my scouting drone randomly on the map and destroyed you ?
this strat is great against awful players or if you catch someone off guard... not to mention im fine staying 1 base v 1 base against a protoss with a macro hatch... that means little to no tech... which means you will get wrecked.
|
Kiwi, I'm curious what you do if you show up to scout and there's a drone patrolling the ramp, do you wait to make forge until you've seen that there is no patrol and do a different build? or is there some way to deal with this drone?
|
On June 04 2011 02:29 EZmark wrote:
why didnt you put the replay up where you tried it on me and i built a hatchery with my scouting drone randomly on the map and destroyed you ?
this strat is great against awful players or if you catch someone off guard... not to mention im fine staying 1 base v 1 base against a protoss with a macro hatch... that means little to no tech... which means you will get wrecked.
O: Rep please!
|
I don't know how many of the people suggesting hydras have actually played zerg. It costs a lot to tech up to hydra off one base and on top of that hydras are also costly themselves. I've officially unbound hydralisk den in my game out of sheer disappointment and rage, because they used to be my favorites in sc1  .
Try playing zerg a few games in custom against terrible people and see how many hydras one can support off one base. It isn't many. They have such poor mobility that the toss player can actually opt to back up then engage later with a defender's advantage. It's hard to transition out to other tier two tech units once you get hydras.
|
just ran up against this and got stomped because I expected an expand, and went nearly all-in roach-ling aggression, to simply see a cannoned+walled ramp.
Now knowing about this strat, what I would go to counter it would be to get roaches off the 1-base to clear the wall-in, then switch to hydra to defend until he expands. The timnig comes late enough i think that even with the wall-in delaying the expand by a large amount, hydras should be out in time+numbers to defend alongside some spines.
I could be wrong though, and obviously the idea situation would be to stop the wall-in, but sometimes that can be missed.
|
Ultimately there is some simple math.
Zerg and Protoss will both be on one base as far as resource gathering is concerned. A roach costs half what a blink stalker costs. Blink stalkers are better than vanilla roaches, but not [i]twice[i] as good. Zerg's tech is delayed if he was going hatch first; protoss's is delayed as well if went for the wall-in. Conclusion: Zerg just lays down a macro hatch in-base to produce a roach army that costs as much as Protoss's blink stalker army. From there it's a standard game since neither player will have a clear advantage.
|
On June 04 2011 05:21 galivet wrote:
Ultimately there is some simple math.
Zerg and Protoss will both be on one base as far as resource gathering is concerned. A roach costs half what a blink stalker costs. Blink stalkers are better than vanilla roaches, but not [i]twice[i] as good. Zerg's tech is delayed if he was going hatch first; protoss's is delayed as well if went for the wall-in. Conclusion: Zerg just lays down a macro hatch in-base to produce a roach army that costs as much as Protoss's blink stalker army. From there it's a standard game since neither player will have a clear advantage.
I'd hazard blink stalkers microed well are worth over 2x roaches
Just blink back the front ones once their shields go, and kite back from the roaches if he tries to move up among the stalkers.
|
On June 03 2011 22:28 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 08:07 CheesyCheese wrote:Dear Protoss Players planning on using this, Please gain vision around your base. Sincerely, Mr. Nydus Worm That's true for any strategy. These players probably don't do a good job of getting vision around their base regardless of whether they're using this strategy or not. This is exactly why Zergs should use Nydus worms more often in "normal" play, not just as a game-ender or an all-in strategy.
While it is true that players should always maintain vision around the base, it's simply the fact that in the situation where they're trying to do this build, they won't be expecting a nydus into their base clean and simple. They will be thinking they are ahead, and since they cannot scout your base, that is all they can really assume. 90% of toss players going this build will expand, which will put them back significantly in army value, so if the nydus is successful, it will nearly always be an instant win.
The above reason being why I now laugh when protoss players block off my expo.
|
As a Zerg, I find this very difficut to deal with and wonder why more Protoss players don't do this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
