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PLEASE LETS KEEP THIS TOPIC ABOUT THIS BUILD, NOT FLAMING/BALANCE TALK/VALIDITY OF CHEESE! Thank you!
PvZ Pylon Block into 3 Gate Blink
Hello again TL, I enjoy doing whacky builds, cheesy or not, I do things out of the ordinary that players don't know how to react to, so I have many very successful builds like that. Today I would like to share the cannon block into 3 gate blink strategy. This build has a 75% ish winrate at 1k masters or approx Top 10 masters at time of writing.
The idea behind the build is simple, play a 1 base vs 1 base against your opponent and be safe against any all-in and deny any possible expansions.
Build Overview
First of all I want to discuss what maps this will work on. It needs to be a longer 4 player map. Taldarim and backwater gultch are the ideal maps, I get away with it on maps like Shattered and Metal too but it's stoppable there. So onto what you want to do.
- 9 pylon
- 13 forge
- 14 3 pylons at the ramp
- 15 cannon
Send your scouting probe at 9 supply, place your forge on the ramp as if you were doing a standard gateway + core wall off. On a map like metal after I scout close positions and scout my base for a overlord I just automatically assume it will be cross so I don't bother sending out another probe. It is very important to make sure your don't place down your forge until you scout they aren't close positions as then they can easily scout your forge, so on maps like taldarim you'll need to delay your forge until 14 supply, but that's fine, it will rarely make a difference.
So now let's go over the possibilities.
14 gas 14 pool - there should be no problems here, wall them off and place one cannon and you are absolutely fine. Spanishiwa style can be defended the same way.
Hatch first- proceed as standard, however after placing one cannon you need to place a second when the hatchery is at 85-90%. If you stick with one cannon they could potentially bust you. Therefore you start a second cannon, if they cancel their hatchery, cancel the cannon yourself and proceed normally.
6-10 pool- After you scout it start a cannon right beside the forge and place a gateway to finish the wall. In this manner only one zergling will be able to attack the cannon at the same time. If you feel unsafe with it you can wall with a forge + gateway + a pylon and place the cannon in the back, but that's wasting unnecessary resources early. Practically a free win, you can go 1 gate VR chronoing out them as fast as you can and attack with three, at that point there is no possible way they can hold after their investment.
Things to keep in mind, when placing the pylons don't wait there beforehand to place the pylons, keep doing that mineral trick and running around and go to the ramp once you reach 220-240 minerals.
Follow up
I will do this as if they went for the most standard 14 gas 14 pool, pretty much anything but cheese (lol)... Now it is SUPER important to keep scouting. Number one way I lost the first few times is getting proxy hatched in my base. It's not a big thing to do, so just scout your base. Problem is you only have one pylon in your base so all your structures are around your ramp because you are at a max of 42 supply while the wall is still up and more arent necessary yet. Also keep scouting EVERY SINGLE BASE on the map for any hidden expoes, if you scout one place a pylon outside of range and start a cannon just as the hatchery is finishing up. Force them to stay on one base until they break your contain.
Now onto the build order after the wall:
- 17 gateway
- 19 double gas
- 23 cyber
- 23 forge +1 (spend all chrono on it)
- 24 2 gateways
- Stop probe production at 26
- When cyber finishes start WG + twilight
- You will be pretty gas starved, make pylons when they are breaking your wall
- Blink asap and + 1 armor (chrono as well)
Have a proxy pylon ready from the probe you hopefully didn't lose, if you did, warping from you base isn't the biggest deal. Before WG finishes you will have money for 5 stalkers. Make sure you have the entire base scouted for any nyduses, stalkers can kill them just fine if they pop up. Move out about 20 seconds before +1 armor finishes at about 56 supply (15 stalkers). To keep up with macro with 3 gates is rather difficult and sometimes impossible if you engage during a warp in cycle so I like to add a 4th if your micro isn't perfect, it is also a pretty good decision because after you lose a few stalkers you don't have to make as many pylons and you'll have enough minerals for a few zealots too.
Blink stalkers with 1/1 are good vs anything. You have a pretty much automatic win vs any muta play, blink stalkers are surpisingly nice against slings and with 2 or 3 zealots in the mix theres no chance for them, and they absolutely each roaches alive. Against a good play I don't think theres much of a chance of holding this build once you get the wall off complete.
Alternative Situations
Extremely early break with roaches + sling all-in - You should see roaches breaking your wall very early. If that's the case just place down two cannons, make sure to wall off, and there isn't much hope for them to make it up your ramp. You also have a few stalkers and time to prepare.
Tbh there really isn't much else, there alternative ways to break the wall but generally that's the only all-in thats viable as drop hits too late and nydus can be scouted, just make sure to scout for the proxy hatch or you will lose.
Replays
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-211105.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-211107.jpg)
As much as I know you guys would want to see 1 base 3 gate blink 10 times over every build goes the same, and so if you would like replays against certain situations I can see if I have them or I can describe from previous experience.
I will be adding a "how to counter" section but right now I am out of time so I will do it another day most likely. Hopefully you guys appreciate the thread, even if you don't like rushes you more people will be able to stop this now.
If you have any questions do ask as I have played maybe 50 games with this build (It is extremely fun and you might not be able to stop, so be warned)
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Sounds like a pretty nice different build thanks 
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Well written and I look forward to trying this build out on the ladder!
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ugh i really hope people dont start doing this on the ladder . . . whenever i see a probe near my ramp i already freak out and try to pull drones but at times i forget to try to stop the wall . . .
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i 100% agree with the build, i like to proxy stargate too after i canond the zerg
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+ Show Spoiler +Lol kiwi I remember playing you !
I could see this working the best on xel naga due to the terrain abuse from the natural to the third
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On May 27 2011 11:30 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I will be adding a "how to counter" section but right now I am out of time so I will do it another day most likely. Hopefully you guys appreciate the thread, even if you don't like rushes you more people will be able to stop this now.
)
Can't people just instantly pull 3 drones to attack the middle pylon so that it dies right before the cannon finishes, then kill your cannon with drones and lings to secure a solid advantage as you spent 450 minerals? Or do you have a good counter for that?
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If you pull 3 drones immediately after the pylons go down, you will 100% be able to kill the middle pylon with lings coming down soon thereafter.
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On May 27 2011 12:02 Exley wrote:
If you pull 3 drones immediately after the pylons go down, you will 100% be able to kill the middle pylon with lings coming down soon thereafter.
What do you mean the middle pylon? I always wall in an L shape, not an arc. You can only attack with at most 2 drones on the outer pylons of an L. Also if they don't pull guys you don't have to place the "keystone" pylon in the corner, saving you 100 mins and just put the cannon there.
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@EatThePath can you please show a picture of the L wallin ? I cant imagine how it should look like.
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Well you can only have two drones attacking any pylon. If you time it right with a 13 forge they can take down the cannon if they pull two drones instantly however the cannon will finish as the wall goes down. And often you can manage to sneak another pylon if they manage to get it down. If done perfectly, yes you can stop it that way. But I promise you it's not the safest way. What I can do is if you try taking my pylon down I can use a gateway and pylon to block off the access and then cancel them after you realise the push is futile. (depending on what pylon you're going for.)
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In counters, isn't building a hatch some place else than the natural a counter? That can then be used to break the wall in conjunction with the main or just building workers, making it almost 2 base vs 1 even if you don't all in as zerg.
450 in cost for the wall sets you back pretty far, as long as one worker is out then it has most likely failed. If you build yet another pylon and canon it is even slower to transition out of.
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I stopped having a patrol drone back when they "fixed ramps". I guess it's time to return to the age old patrol drone.
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cute build... though if you get a ramp block off like this you can pretty much follow-up with anything and win
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On May 27 2011 14:35 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Well you can only have two drones attacking any pylon. If you time it right with a 13 forge they can take down the cannon if they pull two drones instantly however the cannon will finish as the wall goes down. And often you can manage to sneak another pylon if they manage to get it down. If done perfectly, yes you can stop it that way. But I promise you it's not the safest way. What I can do is if you try taking my pylon down I can use a gateway and pylon to block off the access and then cancel them after you realise the push is futile. (depending on what pylon you're going for.)
From the test I just did, I was able to have 3 drones hitting the side pylon in the "L" formation by using move command on the middle pylon so they squeeze in nicely. That allowed for the pylon to die well in time to kill the cannon. You can also have 3 drones attacking in the cup formation of the wall.
Also, 2 drones definately does not kill the wall in time as the pylon has 30 health left when the cannon completes when the drones start beside the pylon ready to attack.
I have no clue how you can manage to "sneak in another pylon" when zergs can attack click then shift click into the pylon area. I'm pretty sure it's not possible against a zerg that knows what he's doing.
I don't think its economically viable to wall off the hole after the pylon even if you cancel as you still need to replace the 3rd pylon in the wall after the cancel or your remaining 350 investment can be easily cleaned up/ran by with just lings. 60 minerals lost cancelling + 550 on a cannon wall (because 1 pylon dies for sure) + not having the 250 minerals from the gateway/pylon needed to wall off the dead pylon's space when you need that money for a gate at home definately puts the zerg ahead.
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Can you please include screenshots of the ramp blocks? aside from that this is a pretty nice and complete guide.
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So in a nutshell... "Since Z is f****d whenever they get cannon contained in their main, whenever I can block them i can do whatever and kill them"?
It's a valid strategy which is hardcountered by a probe patroling the ramp, but with the current metagame no Z still does that, so I assume it would work extremely well.
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cool guide, will def try it out. does it work against terrans aswell?
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In counters, isn't building a hatch some place else than the natural a counter? That can then be used to break the wall in conjunction with the main or just building workers, making it almost 2 base vs 1 even if you don't all in as zerg.
450 in cost for the wall sets you back pretty far, as long as one worker is out then it has most likely failed. If you build yet another pylon and canon it is even slower to transition out of.
The main problem with this is that if you try to expand somewhere else vs a good protoss he will most likely scout it and cannon rush the new hatch - and since you have all your production trapped in your main you have no way of stopping him, and no way of even knowing if it is happening if you do not have an overlord over the base you are trying to expand to.
It can work but more and more as you get higher up the ladder you will find a cannon finishing at your new hatch right as the hatch does.
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On May 27 2011 12:02 Exley wrote:
If you pull 3 drones immediately after the pylons go down, you will 100% be able to kill the middle pylon with lings coming down soon thereafter.
i dont think its that easy tbh, still gonna take some time to get the pylon down. but give it a shot, might work out )
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You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-)
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Russian Federation676 Posts
looks like a million years old build
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If you get a zerg walled into 1 base youve easentially won the game anyway wwhat happens after 99% of the time is a roach all in with no were near the amount required to win, speaking from a high diamond zerg point of view
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Looks interesting, will give it a try because of all the trouble I am having PvZ.
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Tried it and what warrick says seems to be true for gold league. The zerg seems to have insufficient roaches but is it possible for zerg to mass enough hydras + ling to win @@" sorry if this seems quite a noob question, gold leaguer here.
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On May 27 2011 12:30 EatThePath wrote:
What do you mean the middle pylon? I always wall in an L shape, not an arc.
What is an L-shaped wall? That shouldn't change the fact that you can get three drones on the middle pylon... or 2 middle pylons in your case?
On May 27 2011 14:35 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Well you can only have two drones attacking any pylon.
No, 3 can attack the middle pylon in a ramp block.
On May 27 2011 16:28 IIIOmegaIII wrote:i dont think its that easy tbh, still gonna take some time to get the pylon down. but give it a shot, might work out )
Like I said you have to immediately respond with drones.
Edit: Just did a quick search-up on reddit, and this thread details what I'm trying to say a lot better.
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On May 27 2011 17:10 Pamposek wrote:
You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-)
Yep and this happens in just about every game I play where it throws them off and tbh it doesn't matter when they start speed as it won't effect the battle in the end.
I recommend you try hydras vs 1/1 stalkers, they are so incredible bad it's funny. The best unit comp you can go for I guarantee are speed roaches with speedling off one base.
For the haters saying once a wall is made any build beats them, tell me a build and I will show you how the Zerg can blindy counter it while this build has none of it.
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Drone patrol at the ramp shuts this down, and if he scouts your twilight council (which is at your ramp) he should get a fast lair for detection and/or hydras depending on what you do. This shouldn't win in high-level games.
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On May 27 2011 23:13 FreezerJumps wrote:
Drone patrol at the ramp shuts this down, and if he scouts your twilight council (which is at your ramp) he should get a fast lair for detection and/or hydras depending on what you do. This shouldn't win in high-level games.
the problem is that it works, that makes me thinking about fairness.
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Idra is still banned on TL, isn't he? Would be way more fun if he had a saying in this thread...
I recommend you try hydras vs 1/1 stalkers, they are so incredible bad it's funny. The best unit comp you can go for I guarantee are speed roaches with speedling off one base.
funny how people still consider hydras an antigatewayunit (there is only 1player in the world that can win even though he built hydras), as FFs and blink both just crush them and for any usual gateway composition you need shittons of zerglings as a buffer, so actually it is the zergling+rangeunit composition that is OK...
on the build:
I have encountered something similar, and I have to say... blink is soooo fucking strong, it just denies you to play reactive, because you have to have an overwhelming force before the combat to beat blink stalkers, which you don't get without a second hatch, so this build is extremly potent imo.
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To those who say that hydra is the answer: it's not because by the time you tech to hydras the 'toss has a much more superior army (unless he goes strictly air). Also, you can't really break his front wall with it without giving him tons of time to respond/beat you. I've tried to nydus hydras in but it takes so much gas that by the time you get 10 hydras in his base he's got 25 stalkers to greet you.
So better is to just go straight for lair when he boxes you in, drone up and when you are saturated start pumping roaches. If you have two gas going early you will have the 200 for a nydus as well as decent amounts of roaches (it's usually the placement nydus 100 gas I have to save up for/pump lings). I go as quick as I can so I actually forego the metabolic boost usually since time is more important than fast lings. This is an all-in obviously and there are two caveats:
a) He has to kinda suck and not detect your nydus although occasionally my roach production is high enough that I can nydus out front of the main (if his whole base is covered with pylons/scouts) and still take out the front door/win.
b) You gotta hit him early because if he gets out more than one void ray you are pretty screwed.
I've got about 75% success against crappy diamond cheesers (I'm top 5 diamond) trying to pull this off on me. Usually they are trying to get their second base up and I can snipe the production pylons and bring in my queens for whatever air he has. Once you set up shop in his main you are pretty set. If he has 15 stalkers waiting you are screwed since you are trying an all-in.
(please note that this relies on a crappy opponent so chew with caution, it's meant for the lower guys like myself).
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On May 27 2011 17:10 Pamposek wrote:
You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-)
Sorry but this is a very ignorant and arrogant post.
Please, DO NOT post if you don`t have evidence or solid line of reasoning behind your discrediting claims, especially when you are trying to discredit strategy devised by a player of this caliber.
1.You think dude devised such a strategy, played over 50 games and forgot about the existence of hydras ?
2. You didn`t include any aspects of the situation. Your line of thinking: "he has gateway units only and hydras > gw units so this build is bad ! Just get hydras and win !"
3. You think players Kiwi played were bad and the build worked only because opponents lacked skill. This is a poor argument because :
a) the opposing player and his strategy has significant influence on how the other player`s performance looks like
b) it doesn`t mean that if the players were very good the build wouldn`t work - it very well could (and I won`t even mention the fact that Kiwi used many extraordinary builds like that to beat top-level players).
But good player will just steamroll you ...
You need a really solid line of reasoning to back up such a statement. Unfortunately, your post doesn`t include anything that could be termed as "solid", maybe except arrogance.
Please understand - I`m not picking on you, I`m not saying you are an idiot or that you are stupid. However, it looks like it was just your ego trying to look like a smartass and I`m merely stating a fact.
Sorry if it appears judgemental, it isn`t - but arrogant posts like that are detrimental to this forum and scare great players away from posting there.
People need to stop doing this. Please, have some humility/sober self-assessment.
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On May 27 2011 23:42 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 17:10 Pamposek wrote:
You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-) Sorry but this is a very ignorant and arrogant post. Please, DO NOT post if you don`t have evidence or solid line of reasoning behind your discrediting claims, especially when you are trying to discredit strategy devised by a player of this caliber. 1.You think dude devised such a strategy, played over 50 games and forgot about the existence of hydras ? 2. You didn`t include any aspects of the situation. Your line of thinking: "he has gateway units only and hydras > gw units so this build is bad ! Just get hydras and win !" 3. You think players Kiwi played were bad and the build worked only because opponents lacked skill. This is a poor argument because : a) the opposing player and his strategy has significant influence on how the other player`s performance looks like b) it doesn`t mean that if the players were very good the build wouldn`t work - it very well could (and I won`t even mention the fact that Kiwi used many extraordinary builds like that to beat top-level players). You need a really solid line of reasoning to back up such a statement. Unfortunately, your post doesn`t include anything that could be termed as "solid", maybe except arrogance. Please understand - I`m not picking on you, I`m not saying you are an idiot or that you are stupid. However, it looks like it was just your ego trying to look like a smartass and I`m merely stating a fact. Sorry if it appears judgemental, it isn`t - but arrogant posts like that are detrimental to this forum and scare great players away from posting there. People need to stop doing this. Please, have some humility/sober self-assessment.
Too much of a flame. Tho I agree with your points. That reply was very igornant. Tho, lets try not to make a fight from a guy that has his own opinion, but say our opinion about kiwi's build. I like this because it is disadvantage for zerg players to pull out their drones from the mineral line where you can simply cancel out the cannons when you see drones running down to save his hatchery.
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On May 27 2011 23:42 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 17:10 Pamposek wrote:
You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-) Sorry but this is a very ignorant and arrogant post. Please, DO NOT post if you don`t have evidence or solid line of reasoning behind your discrediting claims, especially when you are trying to discredit strategy devised by a player of this caliber.
You seem to think this is ROOTKiWiKaKi, but it is not. This is a Master-league player who uses the same handle on Battle.net.
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On May 27 2011 23:23 Big J wrote:Idra is still banned on TL, isn't he? Would be way more fun if he had a saying in this thread... Show nested quote +
I recommend you try hydras vs 1/1 stalkers, they are so incredible bad it's funny. The best unit comp you can go for I guarantee are speed roaches with speedling off one base.
funny how people still consider hydras an antigatewayunit (there is only 1player in the world that can win even though he built hydras), as FFs and blink both just crush them and for any usual gateway composition you need shittons of zerglings as a buffer, so actually it is the zergling+rangeunit composition that is OK... on the build: I have encountered something similar, and I have to say... blink is soooo fucking strong, it just denies you to play reactive, because you have to have an overwhelming force before the combat to beat blink stalkers, which you don't get without a second hatch, so this build is extremly potent imo.
I can second this. I have done tons of testing in games and with the unit tester map and hydra vs blink stalker will get straight up smashed. Hydra are just 2 squishy vs anyone with ANY kind of micro that can just blink the damaged stalkers back. Hydra's just suck all together and the ONLY time they are good is for extream timing pushes or if you have roach or ling to buffer the damage while you let the hydra do the DPS. They are sadly a poor investment cost in most cases and a sad disapointment from thier gloary days of sc1 
Roaches / lings are still a better investment vs blink stalker and you need to micro accordingly so evreytime a stalker push happens you snipe 1 or 2 stalkers with roach / lings instead of just A moving the stalker blob. Either way if you are truely walled in your best bet is a very fast nydus worm in the toss's base or just outside it with OL vision to help smash the gate.
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tons of transitions off the 3pylon+cannon opening...
1) Get nexus and get 6 gate warp gates
2) Blink stalker as you wrote
3) MC originally used the three pylon opening on TAL and got stargate (phoenix then VR, basically GG killing overlords and queens)
4) any sort of templar tech
really, its just an opening you can transition any way you like.
try the "bisu" build from BW after pylon blocking:
phoenix into DT's (kill overlords, then kill drones with dts)
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On May 27 2011 23:42 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 17:10 Pamposek wrote:
You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-) Sorry but this is a very ignorant and arrogant post. Please, DO NOT post if you don`t have evidence or solid line of reasoning behind your discrediting claims, especially when you are trying to discredit strategy devised by a player of this caliber.
He does have evidence: He's watching the bloody replays. Only his first paragraph was speculating about hydras, the rest of his post was not about that.
Also what makes you think this player is of any particularly noteworthy caliber?
3. You think players Kiwi played were bad and the build worked only because opponents lacked skill. This is a poor argument because :
Pamposek newer called Fiwi (hint: not Kiwi) bad. He also didn't say it'd work only because the opponents lacked skill, he merely pointed out that they were actually bad in those replays.
b) it doesn`t mean that if the players were very good the build wouldn`t work - it very well could (and I won`t even mention the fact that Kiwi used many extraordinary builds like that to beat top-level players).
Now you're the one arguing without evidence. The consensus on the strategy forum is that the burden of proof is on the OP to provide high-quality replays.
Also, where is *your* evidence that KiwiKaki (who is not the OP) has used builds like this one to beat top-level players?
You need a really solid line of reasoning to back up such a statement. Unfortunately, your post doesn`t include anything that could be termed as "solid", maybe except arrogance. Please understand - I`m not picking on you, I`m not saying you are an idiot or that you are stupid. However, it looks like it was just your ego trying to look like a smartass and I`m merely stating a fact.
TBH, it is your post that comes across as arrogant, not Pamposek's (IMO).
Sorry if it appears judgemental, it isn`t - but arrogant posts like that are detrimental to this forum and scare great players away from posting there.
It is judgemental. You're saying his post only includes arrogance and that it looks like his ego is trying to look like a smartass -- and that that is a fact. Proclaiming that your opinion is a fact doesn't make this any less judgemental. (If anything, it comes across as arrogant from your side.)
Also, I don't think any great players have even replied to this thread.
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Just posting to tell you I love your ID 
Haven't tried the build yet, but it sounds great, I'll have to give it a try soon as I'm having lots of troubles vs Zergs lately, I'll use this spot to post my comments later.
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Disappointed that you didn't properly credit CombatEx for the only PvZ opening that he knows
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As far as responses to this why not macro 2nd hatch? I sadly do not have any replays recent enough (don't save cheese replays generally), but the few times this has happened and I was unable to prevent the block I simply went with a roach/speedling all in. Roaches can bust the front taking no numbers losses. You also don't need 2 hatches worth of income, just two hatches worth of production. Of course you also would need to sac an overlord to ensure its a gateway follow up and not something that requires a different response or special defense.
This is only Diamond level though, so I'm unsure about higher skill levels. Do you really "have" to nydus once people are better?
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ive tried this before and failed (i would do things a little differently now but) all they have to do is get 3-4 crawlers at the top of their ramp with speedlings and tech infestors off 1 base. you cant get up their ramp. even if you send in 1 stalker to get vision and blink the rest past, the 1 stalker will die before you can blink fast enough. if you manage to get up you get fungaled and surrounded by lings. gg u lose unless you expand (if you expand without cannons or an obs bye bye probes, 2 infestors unburrowand kill all your probes
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On May 28 2011 01:28 Lansky wrote:
As far as responses to this why not macro 2nd hatch? I sadly do not have any replays recent enough (don't save cheese replays generally), but the few times this has happened and I was unable to prevent the block I simply went with a roach/speedling all in. Roaches can bust the front taking no numbers losses. You also don't need 2 hatches worth of income, just two hatches worth of production. Of course you also would need to sac an overlord to ensure its a gateway follow up and not something that requires a different response or special defense.
This is only Diamond level though, so I'm unsure about higher skill levels. Do you really "have" to nydus once people are better?
Nydus DOESNT work. Mass roach w/ speed + sling is the best response I have seen so far IF I choose to go for my 3 gate blink. If you do scout the twilight you are in great shape and Ill be editing my post for the perfect way to counter... The main thing is you need the roach speed.
I'm working on finding the ideal way to deal with it too.
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OP: how about 1 pylon and 3 cannons? Yes, it's 100 minerals more but stops your opponent for much longer + if he really want to break the contain, he will lose units.
edit: to be clear I meant 3 cannons outside of high ground range, yea, he can try to run by but will lose a lot of units (+you have wallin at home)
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On May 28 2011 01:43 ondik wrote:
OP: how about 1 pylon and 3 cannons? Yes, it's 100 minerals more but stops your opponent for much longer + if he really want to break the contain, he will lose units.
edit: to be clear I meant 3 cannons outside of high ground range, yea, he can try to run by but will lose a lot of units (+you have wallin at home)
The problem I have with that is you need to wait for your pylon to finish so you won't have a wall. I mean that's the main reason.
Next reasons, you need to make pylons at your base and that adds up, sure you need them later when your opponent breaks the wall but the extra 200 minerals for the pylons early is a big investment.
Additionally they can take down the wall with one spine crawler if you make a wall, if you don't make a wall they can pull drones and destroy your buildings as they're warping in. Because of that it's not feasable at all.
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LoL.
Team Liquid needs a "Cheese" Forum. Where all the cheesy, rush builds with discussions can be assembled together.
By the way this type of strat is nothing new. More or less fell out of style because Zerg players learned how to counter this type of stuff.
Just like Zerg learned to fight the 4 gate. And now you rarely 4 gate a zerg. Now people are complaining about zerg beating the 3 gate xpand.
Just go back to OP strat number 1. Wall them in .
When they start Patroling a drone at the ramp. Go back to 4 gate!
Then when they make 3 spine crawlers. GO BACK TO 3 GATE EXPAND!
Protoss initiative for the win!
It's actually funny how Lately on the ladder, I 4 gated quite a few zerg and outright won with ease seeing 2 spine crawlers still being made when I get to their base.
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I liked this thread until it got all flamey
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On May 27 2011 22:53 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 17:10 Pamposek wrote:
You have some missing points ... you are speaking about speedlings or roaches, but you atually forget one unit, which eats gateway alive - hydras! Why not do fast tech to hydras and just break through? Hydras are just amazing against gateway play.
On the other note i watched replays and in first one zerg was bad. He was not tailchasing probe to naural and what worse, second ovie was not going to natural! This you must do always to protect yourself from any cheese. Then i stopped watching it.
In second replay zerg was bad too. He spotted it, was trying to kill it in time, but when he failed, he ... had nearly 500 gas before starting even ling speed (when doing nydus ling?) and it was 6:42! He didn't even tried to get rid of the wall (queen could just kill some pylons for free, creep spread with ovies and spine just chew throught etc ...)
So it's a cheese and if it throws you off, it can kill you. But good player will just steamroll you ...
But throwing off the build can do wonders ;-) Yep and this happens in just about every game I play where it throws them off and tbh it doesn't matter when they start speed as it won't effect the battle in the end. I recommend you try hydras vs 1/1 stalkers, they are so incredible bad it's funny. The best unit comp you can go for I guarantee are speed roaches with speedling off one base. For the haters saying once a wall is made any build beats them, tell me a build and I will show you how the Zerg can blindy counter it while this build has none of it.
No, even blink stalkers is not a sure win, there are blind counters to that too. There is no unbeatable build. What people are trying to say is that cannon contain vs hatch first puts protoss ahead by a significant amount such that whatever follow up/transition you do is not as important as the first 3 minutes of the game in and of itself.
So I believe a guide should focus on those 3 minutes of the game. I can imagine something like sending two probes, and double teaming the drone at the ramp.
But yeah, versus any good player they will have a drone patrolling and then your build is very behind since you walled in your main. So it's like 6 pooling against Terran in a way, you are putting the ball in the opponent's court.
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I've done this a few times, after it was posted on /r/starcraft/ by another high-level player.
It works incredibly well, even against 7RR and the like. I usually follow it up with 3 gate zealots into dark templar or voidrays, but the game is usually over before my cyber finishes.
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does anyone else call this the Supply Block build?
I have not yet lost against a zerg that I managed to block, but every zerg I blocked reacted poorly... (Nydus/roachling allin)
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Curious if macro hatch would work better.
Cancel hatch @ natural, take that drone and go scout his base forever (since he wont have a core for a long time) If he tries to nexus try to block + proxy hatch/cancel into evo chamber?
Place hatch in main where creep will reach ramp. Pool/queendrone until hatch finishes..
Take two gas, Go lair first over ling speed. WIth only one cannon i don't think its worth it to invest in a crawler. Probably better just to make roaches and bust with those.
Nydus is gimmicky, i don't trust it that early... I think i'd favor OL speed/drop. Same gas cost. Comes a bit later, doesn't require a drone, and can't be killed just by having a zealot on patrol.
I'm trying not to assume that I know exactly what the protoss is doing. Twilight to me means i need to get detection. If I get pylon blocked I don't know if he's expanding or 4gate'ing. OL/drone scout should be able to tell me. Does protoss build stalker before killing scouting drone? Or does drone not get in because front door is completely walled ( which is plausible, since he's going blink)
I'd like to try this later. maybe i can find a willing protoss.
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I don't understand why no one has mentioned baneling bust. It comes a lot faster than roach den and breaks out a LOT faster. (Roaches suck vs cannon btw) There is no time to react or scout it unless protoss walls himself off inside. You only need 5 banelings to break down the pylon and then you can rush speedlings to the protoss. (Cannon at wall dies immediately to 12+speedlings) If the protoss doesn't wall with gateway+cyber, you can baneling bust again, winning the game. Else, if he has units (or massed cannons) and you don't think you can bust in, just expand and play a normal game (with an advantage in tech and eco).
The great thing about being blocked in by a protoss is that afterwards, protoss has 0 methods of scouting, so you can do anything you want since the protoss build order will be more delayed than yours. If he blindly counters you, it just becomes a normal game and you macro up. The hardest is when protoss FE's with multiple cannons, in that case you have to drone super hard and hope you find out what he's doing in time.
I've tried this build many times, both executing as protoss and defending as zerg. I've never seen protoss win unless the zerg makes big mistakes.
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sounds like a big playasaurous rex build gonna try it out pull off some big plays 2n on the ladder tune into stream
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Just watched the replays. I feel like any follow up would have won both games, the blink stalker part is just a finishing move for an already won game. Not to say the build isn't good, maybe it is a great follow up. but these replays don't demonstrate that. all they demonstrate is that the cannon contain is still viable.
Do you have any replays where the opponent was more competent at breaking the contain. They both seemed to panic, the second one floated like 1k mins / 500 gas before putting down any building past the spawn pool. and it was quite obvious he didn't have a plan to deal with cannon contains. the first guy didn't even drone scout. I would like to see a replay where the opponent 13 scouts and you still manage to cannon contain; he then breaks the contain in short order and the blink stalkers are how you win.
Otherwise, this strategy is resting on the laurels of a simple cannon contain, and the 3gate blink section is just useless.
p.s. not a flame on your strat; just need better replays to demonstrate that this is a valid strategy.
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Uhm, when the zerg scouts your forge, can't he just patrol a drone at ramp? From the 14 supply point to the 300 mineral point (to put down 3 pylons), there is ample time for the zerg to do so.
Doesn't that shut this build down?
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On May 28 2011 04:06 Quochobao wrote:
Uhm, when the zerg scouts your forge, can't he just patrol a drone at ramp? From the 14 supply point to the 300 mineral point (to put down 3 pylons), there is ample time for the zerg to do so.
Doesn't that shut this build down?
It's only a three-page thread. Couldn't you read at least through the second page before posting?
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Uhm, when the zerg scouts your forge, can't he just patrol a drone at ramp?
I don't understand why no one has mentioned baneling bust.
Curious if macro hatch would work better.
The point you guys are missing is that the build causes so much disruption in the Zerg's play (namely, it basically prevents developing the second hatch at all) that, even if the Zerg does break the contain, it is worth it economically, meaning that the Zerg player now has to both break the contain and counter (likely against a cannoned natural) in order to even the playing field.
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I'm pretty sure that because you're delaying your gateway-core-blink tech by 600 minerals (forge, 3 pylons, cannon) the zerg player can hydra-speedling drop you just as you get warpgate finished researching (and blink still not done). I'm not 100% sure, this would require some more in depth testing.
In general, I think the appropriate response to this is to just plant an inbase hatchery because you NEED that second hatch regardless of your game plan. My personal plan would be to tech up fast while droning hardcore. I have a massive tech advantage, research drop, get a hydra den, and pump speedlings on 2 inbase hatcheries, toss as many hydras in as you can manage, and go for a doomdrop. Hydra ling will murder smaller numbers of blink stalkers, and the timing hits with you quite a bit in the hole. What are you gonna do, put your tech behind even more to drop cannons in your base?
I prefer drop to nydus because you can't just spot it and kill it with workers or 1 unit, and it costs the same gas to access.
Also note that this ONLY works on ladder maps, and not most tournament maps. (they pretty much all have some kind of obstruction at the bottom of the ramp to prevent this kind of play - usually more applicable to bunker-blocking ramps.)
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I have been doing a similar build actually and have had a ton of success the only times I really get beat is when they manage to nydus into your base or are able to bust the gate down sooner than you are ready for. I use colossi vrays but maybe gateway units are faster to get incase of early pressure.
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To those questioning the 3 gate blink, you have to realise how fine and what kind of work of art that build is. Perfect time for any roach pressure bling plays, mutas, nyduses, drops.
Experiment with it please, if you lose to an all-in you will see where you can fix your mistakes. If you got VR or DT there is potential to lose to roach drops, hydra drops, banrling busts. 3 gate blink is perfect against any build.
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On May 28 2011 04:50 FiWiFaKi wrote:
To those questioning the 3 gate blink, you have to realise how fine and what kind of work of art that build is. Perfect time for any roach pressure bling plays, mutas, nyduses, drops.
Experiment with it please, if you lose to an all-in you will see where you can fix your mistakes. If you got VR or DT there is potential to lose to roach drops, hydra drops, banrling busts. It's perfect against any build.
Replays demonstrating this? I don't want to experiment with it, I play zerg; I want to see it in action to know if I need to worry about the blink follow-up or just the contain.
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To those questioning the 3 gate blink, you have to realise how fine and what kind of work of art that build is.
Not questioning it, but it's not a preference. I'd rather spend my early gas on other, more robust tech, since I'm getting zealots early anyway to hold the contain longer.
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On May 28 2011 04:50 FiWiFaKi wrote:
To those questioning the 3 gate blink, you have to realise how fine and what kind of work of art that build is. Perfect time for any roach pressure bling plays, mutas, nyduses, drops.
Experiment with it please, if you lose to an all-in you will see where you can fix your mistakes. If you got VR or DT there is potential to lose to roach drops, hydra drops, banrling busts. 3 gate blink is perfect against any build.
Ok, just out of curiosity:
do you think Zerg has a real chance of coming back once you get the block up? (assuming P doesn't screw up)
even if you go roach/ling with roachspeed (which looks like an extreme investment for a 1basing zerg), you say you're working on countering it, so: is there a build that is at least decent (and maybe not all-in) for a zerg, to break this?
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On May 28 2011 04:19 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 04:06 Quochobao wrote:
Uhm, when the zerg scouts your forge, can't he just patrol a drone at ramp? From the 14 supply point to the 300 mineral point (to put down 3 pylons), there is ample time for the zerg to do so.
Doesn't that shut this build down? It's only a three-page thread. Couldn't you read at least through the second page before posting?
You need to chill a bit man. Yes patrolling drone has been mentioned--but what is the final verdict? Theoretically this will stop the build, but practically it's still working at the highest level.
Now can you explain that to me please?
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On May 28 2011 04:25 nonethewiser wrote:The point you guys are missing is that the build causes so much disruption in the Zerg's play (namely, it basically prevents developing the second hatch at all) that, even if the Zerg does break the contain, it is worth it economically, meaning that the Zerg player now has to both break the contain and counter (likely against a cannoned natural) in order to even the playing field.
The protoss is 600 minerals (3x pylon, 1 forge, 1 cannon)behind. In the worst case zerg cancels a hatchery losing 75 minerals, and maybe a drone. Then the zerg proceeds to drone 100% safe to whatever drone number he needs, and then busts down. For a baneling bust, he can do 22 drones and be fine. The second hatch is late, yes, but so is protoss gateway/cyber core timing. Zerg has various 1 base timing attacks that he can exploit, not to mention his overlords can scout whether protoss is expanding or not. After he destroys the pylon + cannon, it becomes a normal game, with the zerg performing a timing attack while expanding behind it. protoss is on 1 base, behind in tech and minerals. If the zerg doesn't commit and just pressures the protoss, the zerg will be safe barring any map features (like Kulas Ravine)
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Why are people comiting so much time and energy to create cheese builds? Why cant they create 1 normal, refined, macro strategy? I just dont get it. Cheeses will give you some fast wins until ppl will get better and know how to react. In that case, they can just block their ramp with a patroling drone. Its not that hard and after that you will be far behind.
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On May 28 2011 06:37 gejfsyd wrote:
Why are people comiting so much time and energy to create cheese builds? Why cant they create 1 normal, refined, macro strategy? I just dont get it. Cheeses will give you some fast wins until ppl will get better and know how to react. In that case, they can just block their ramp with a patroling drone. Its not that hard and after that you will be far behind.
because it's a nice wrinkle you can throw into your play from time to time?
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On May 28 2011 07:21 zeehar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 06:37 gejfsyd wrote:
Why are people comiting so much time and energy to create cheese builds? Why cant they create 1 normal, refined, macro strategy? I just dont get it. Cheeses will give you some fast wins until ppl will get better and know how to react. In that case, they can just block their ramp with a patroling drone. Its not that hard and after that you will be far behind. because it's a nice wrinkle you can throw into your play from time to time?
also because they have to be fleshed out so that the macro builds can work around them
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On May 28 2011 06:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 04:50 FiWiFaKi wrote:
To those questioning the 3 gate blink, you have to realise how fine and what kind of work of art that build is. Perfect time for any roach pressure bling plays, mutas, nyduses, drops.
Experiment with it please, if you lose to an all-in you will see where you can fix your mistakes. If you got VR or DT there is potential to lose to roach drops, hydra drops, banrling busts. 3 gate blink is perfect against any build. Ok, just out of curiosity: do you think Zerg has a real chance of coming back once you get the block up? (assuming P doesn't screw up) even if you go roach/ling with roachspeed (which looks like an extreme investment for a 1basing zerg), you say you're working on countering it, so: is there a build that is at least decent (and maybe not all-in) for a zerg, to break this?
The builds I feel that work against this are:
Go for 14 gas 14 pool into 19 roach warden, make 3-4 roaches to break the wall and just expand to your natural at approx 24 drones. Keeping droning and getting your upgrades, and in my opinion something like 32-35 drones is ideal, then make a good balance of roach + ling, I'm not exactly sure what the right number would be but I feel roach heavy does the best with a 1 to 1 ratio. Just make sure you have the speed for both units.
As for the other build I haven't played vs very much, I think just two games actually, was a ling + infestor with lots of spine crawlers and a late base. A good fungal gives your lings ample time to surround and prevent me from retreating. And if you get a fungal even on a quarter of my units I need to commit or else Ill lose a quarter of my army for free. Getting 5-6 spine crawlers is really good to as placing them on your ramp when youre one base makes it pretty hard to attack into, especially consideringif I move up and you fungal my units my stalkers will die very quickly to such crazy DPS. But like I said I don't have too much experience against this build but it seems extremely powerful.
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I lost using this build because he just made like 50 speedlings and surprised my stalkers when they got out.
So that makes me like 6-1 with this build haha.
Thanks for the great post
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Hey kiwi, CCalms here, back to shoot down another build of yours
I played a lot of cheese games through with a GM zerg (some tQ guy that I can't remember lol...) and his standard response is nydus with ling hydra. He doesnt even try to go for an inbase nydus but rather outside the natural, so there isn't any stopping it. The push is extremely strong and would absolutely gank a no-sentry composition a second nydus is made in base while attacking, which only makes things worse, and removes the viability of cannons unless you are able to defend the front while taking out the inbase nydus.
The only 100% safe follow up to a cannon contain is to scout a lot using the probe trick to get past your pylon block to see his lair timing to deduce how he plans to bust out of his wall. If he has no lair then just build a bunch more cannons outside his main to keep him in longer, since he is obv trying a baneling or roach bust. Otherwise, do a gas heavy gateway expand like normal.
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IMO this only works if Zerg does not scout, my master league Zerg friend always drones scout pretty early, sees my Forge, and patrols a Drone at the bottom of his ramp.
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On May 28 2011 09:58 CCalms wrote: Hey kiwi, CCalms here, back to shoot down another build of yours I played a lot of cheese games through with a GM zerg (some tQ guy that I can't remember lol...) and his standard response is nydus with ling hydra. He doesnt even try to go for an inbase nydus but rather outside the natural, so there isn't any stopping it. The push is extremely strong and would absolutely gank a no-sentry composition a second nydus is made in base while attacking, which only makes things worse, and removes the viability of cannons unless you are able to defend the front while taking out the inbase nydus. The only 100% safe follow up to a cannon contain is to scout a lot using the probe trick to get past your pylon block to see his lair timing to deduce how he plans to bust out of his wall. If he has no lair then just build a bunch more cannons outside his main to keep him in longer, since he is obv trying a baneling or roach bust. Otherwise, do a gas heavy gateway expand like normal.
Kid thinks he's gosu or something
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On May 28 2011 11:17 Iggnite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 09:58 CCalms wrote: Hey kiwi, CCalms here, back to shoot down another build of yours I played a lot of cheese games through with a GM zerg (some tQ guy that I can't remember lol...) and his standard response is nydus with ling hydra. He doesnt even try to go for an inbase nydus but rather outside the natural, so there isn't any stopping it. The push is extremely strong and would absolutely gank a no-sentry composition a second nydus is made in base while attacking, which only makes things worse, and removes the viability of cannons unless you are able to defend the front while taking out the inbase nydus. The only 100% safe follow up to a cannon contain is to scout a lot using the probe trick to get past your pylon block to see his lair timing to deduce how he plans to bust out of his wall. If he has no lair then just build a bunch more cannons outside his main to keep him in longer, since he is obv trying a baneling or roach bust. Otherwise, do a gas heavy gateway expand like normal. Kid thinks he's gosu or something
I've played CCalms several times and he's a VERY good player so please don't act like that towards him.
And to answer his post, I have faced this before, well just a hydra nydus, and personally I didn't feel it was that strong, it however it was a right near my ramp nydus of roach + hydra not the ling version and I won that game quite easily.
I don't want to make any conclusions, as obviously if he's losing to it that hard then there is some weakness. Uhm I'd prefer to see a replay because I'm not sure if you're timing was perfect etc, but I can see it be potentially powerful, keeping that in mind, hydras do take a while to get, and I'm pretty sure Ill have WG out and ready.
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Wow tried this build two times in ~900 Masters, works great! Especially on Tal Darim because they think you are about to fast expand (yes I get greedy with it and build it in my natural, in the main looks too obvious). If you spread out your pylons you can easily stop all Nyduses, and if you delay the one in your main, just throw down 3 cannons and 2 sentries on top of your ramp. Unfortunately it does not work in tournament MLG maps =(
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nice build, gonna try it out
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On May 28 2011 06:30 stink123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 04:25 nonethewiser wrote:Uhm, when the zerg scouts your forge, can't he just patrol a drone at ramp? I don't understand why no one has mentioned baneling bust. Curious if macro hatch would work better. The point you guys are missing is that the build causes so much disruption in the Zerg's play (namely, it basically prevents developing the second hatch at all) that, even if the Zerg does break the contain, it is worth it economically, meaning that the Zerg player now has to both break the contain and counter (likely against a cannoned natural) in order to even the playing field. The protoss is 600 minerals (3x pylon, 1 forge, 1 cannon)behind. In the worst case zerg cancels a hatchery losing 75 minerals, and maybe a drone. Then the zerg proceeds to drone 100% safe to whatever drone number he needs, and then busts down. For a baneling bust, he can do 22 drones and be fine. The second hatch is late, yes, but so is protoss gateway/cyber core timing. Zerg has various 1 base timing attacks that he can exploit, not to mention his overlords can scout whether protoss is expanding or not. After he destroys the pylon + cannon, it becomes a normal game, with the zerg performing a timing attack while expanding behind it. protoss is on 1 base, behind in tech and minerals. If the zerg doesn't commit and just pressures the protoss, the zerg will be safe barring any map features (like Kulas Ravine)
hmm...Upon reading, I wonder...What happens if the Zerg player is more persistent with trying to expand to other parts of the map? I do a 15 hatch 15 pool so my drone is already out. Yes, I do know that the Protoss player should be very persistent on scouting and denying my hatch. However, the goal is exactly to have the player waste minerals on a pylon+canceling a cannon (around 140 minerals wasted each time) so it can delay the eventual blink push while I can tech a bit farther. I mean, if I have my hatch down safely and the creep blocks his cannon placement, that's cool but is a side aim compared to what I am truly going for. Cancel the hatch (75 mins wasted) and go again somewhere else as I might buy time for upgrades for my unit of choice. iono...just a thought. I know for sure my opponent can't attack with units so just having the Protoss player waste minerals is the least I could do.
If I do get my hatch down for some odd reason, haha macro. Break down pylon wall. Mass transfer my excess drones from my main. Spines, spores, queen(s) for defense. Then again, I am a 900 Diamond Zerg and I have personally faced this type of wall-off only once or twice a long time ago.
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On May 28 2011 16:07 Tendou wrote:
hmm...Upon reading, I wonder...What happens if the Zerg player is more persistent with trying to expand to other parts of the map? I do a 15 hatch 15 pool so my drone is already out. Yes, I do know that the Protoss player should be very persistent on scouting and denying my hatch. However, the goal is exactly to have the player waste minerals on a pylon+canceling a cannon (around 140 minerals wasted each time) so it can delay the eventual blink push while I can tech a bit farther. I mean, if I have my hatch down safely and the creep blocks his cannon placement, that's cool but is a side aim compared to what I am truly going for. Cancel the hatch (75 mins wasted) and go again somewhere else as I might buy time for upgrades for my unit of choice. iono...just a thought. I know for sure my opponent can't attack with units so just having the Protoss player waste minerals is the least I could do.
If I do get my hatch down for some odd reason, haha macro. Break down pylon wall. Mass transfer my excess drones from my main. Spines, spores, queen(s) for defense. Then again, I am a 900 Diamond Zerg and I have personally faced this type of wall-off only once or twice a long time ago.
you don't have any vision around your hatch if you have no OL there, so just building somewhere else means you have no clue if P sees it and canons it, or not. (if he builds the canon/s right on time to finish with your hatch, you cannot cancel but your hatch will go down)
and even if you get it up, you are facing the most mobile Protoss army there is and you have to defend 2far apart bases, as you didn't take your natural, so static defenses are bad because he will just attack your main instead, and static D at both bases puts you behind.
Im not sure if you can have lairtech (speedroach, infestor) to deal with the blink follow up, if you go for the expansion and Im not sure if pure speedling beats blink stalkers if the Protoss is good, especially as you think about "droning" which cuts in your speedling numbers.
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all i wanna say is kiwi thanks for this so far 11-1 on ladder with it.... very strong... thanks again bro, but can you post a few more replays of this strat possibly? like when the 3 pylon fails and you have to adapt... etc?
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On May 27 2011 21:36 Exley wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 12:30 EatThePath wrote:
What do you mean the middle pylon? I always wall in an L shape, not an arc. What is an L-shaped wall? That shouldn't change the fact that you can get three drones on the middle pylon... or 2 middle pylons in your case?
I will be able to make pictures in a couple days when I have an sc2 computer again. I regret the delay. :\
The picture you linked at the reddit article is exactly what I don't do, for exactly that reason. An L-wall has a corner and two legs... not 2 middle pylons. I'm not even sure what that means. xD
People might be confused because it doesn't look like a tight wall. Imagine the way a terran walls the bottom of their ramp with a depot and rax. The ends of the wall where it meets the sides of the ramp looks passable, but it's not. And you know the part where where the rax overlaps with the depot? That's where the corner pylon goes.
Pictures soon hopefully.
On the topic of best practices for pylon/cannon walling:
I don't know why people make all 3 pylons at once. Just make one or two, and then if they bring drones you can complete the wall. This way they have less information to react to, and you can complete the wall with a cannon (in my version) if they didn't try to break it down. In the corner position, the cannon can only be hit by 1 melee unit at a time, so it saved you 100 minerals and is essentially as safe.
If they try to attack your pylons with drones, you can attack one of the drones from across the wall with your probe (over the corner of the pylon), forcing them to have 3 drones there, and to micro them, slowing their damage to your pylon.
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Hope no one thinks this is a flame - but isn't successfully getting down the pylon block and cannon(s) basically game over if you're close to equal skill level? Assuming, of course, you scout for a hidden expo and keep a proxy hatch out of your base.
Seems like Zerg is so far behind when this happens that there's really nothing to do but make a bunch of stuff and go kill them.
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On June 01 2011 16:03 hocash wrote:
Hope no one thinks this is a flame - but isn't successfully getting down the pylon block and cannon(s) basically game over if you're close to equal skill level? Assuming, of course, you scout for a hidden expo and keep a proxy hatch out of your base.
Seems like Zerg is so far behind when this happens that there's really nothing to do but make a bunch of stuff and go kill them.
You're basically correct.
Once the contain is up Zerg is so far behind* he can only try some kind of onebase all-in with Protoss can counter with a variety of builds. Blink Stalker is a very good counter but Voidray/Phoenix also works or Expo and mass gateway or ....
*Yes the Protoss delays his core/gateway alot, but its about the larva, not the minerals. On one base it is completely impossible for Z to build an economy and an army so if you chose to drone, Protoss gets so far ahead it's gg. A macro hatch is also bad since it puts you 300 mins behind and you don't receive the income boost from spreading your drones on two mineral lines (Sheth's post explains the importance of this).
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Dear Protoss Players planning on using this,
Please gain vision around your base.
Sincerely, Mr. Nydus Worm
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-212400.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-212401.jpg)
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Pylonblocks are always gay tho. Playing random, I only ever do it as punishing hat first since zergs shouldn't do it currently in zvp. It's just against my morale to do such freewin strategies. It doesn't really matter what you transition to from it, eventhough I used to do 3-4gate blink also. It doesn't feel like a fair win, similar as any other proxies really don't.
One minor advantage from playing random - tosses cant start forge first as often when playing zerg. A bit less bullshit to be seen.
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At 1300 I haven't had amazing success. They can usually break your wall fairly quickly with a spine or 3 roaches, then rush to hydras which rape your blink stalkers no matter how amazing your micro is. I only win if they try anything else but hydra, which is a common response. I did win against hydra a few times but it's really not optimal. If they have good macro it's unwinnable.
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Sometimes when I look at strats like these and just get sad and think back to the day when I thought playing Zerg was fun...
User was warned for this post
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hmm. ive been playing this build with varying success. against the lower tier grandmaster pool on SEA and midmasters players on NA 1k-1.4k i have had relative success with this build. However against some of the stronger players ive faced (GMs), they tend to break down the wall with roaches very quickly and expand immediately after. then they throw down 5 spines or so when im gonna move out stuff the ramp full of roaches so i cant blink into the main past spines. after which he just masses lings for awhile and well it goes downhill from there. i was thinking maybe i should have chucked down maybe 2 cannons and another pylon further away when the roaches start hitting my pylon wall so roaches will need to come down the ramp and destroy all the cannons for him to get out. during which i go chuck sentries there, expand and contain rather than go blink. that way it would force him to stay 1 base but of course that would require greater investment. what do u guys think?
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On June 03 2011 07:04 ForDarkness wrote:
hmm. ive been playing this build with varying success. against the lower tier grandmaster pool on SEA and midmasters players on NA 1k-1.4k i have had relative success with this build. However against some of the stronger players ive faced (GMs), they tend to break down the wall with roaches very quickly and expand immediately after. then they throw down 5 spines or so when im gonna move out stuff the ramp full of roaches so i cant blink into the main past spines. after which he just masses lings for awhile and well it goes downhill from there. i was thinking maybe i should have chucked down maybe 2 cannons and another pylon further away when the roaches start hitting my pylon wall so roaches will need to come down the ramp and destroy all the cannons for him to get out. during which i go chuck sentries there, expand and contain rather than go blink. that way it would force him to stay 1 base but of course that would require greater investment. what do u guys think?
But you don't know that he's doing that until he does it -- for all you know he's going one-base mutas or nydus, in which case you'd be defeated.
If your opponent breaks out with roaches early enough to establish an expansion then maybe you should take your own expansion and play a normal macro game.
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Interesting interesting... time to refine a new build for ladder.
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After playing this some more, it can be an extremely strong strategy. It is however pretty easily countered if they can figure out what you're up too.
A macro hatch is also bad since it puts you 300 mins behind and you don't receive the income boost from spreading your drones on two mineral lines
I think this is a bit out of context, as in if you get Pylon caged, adding that Hatchery will allow you to actually spend your money. Protoss spends 300 on Pylons and 150+ on Cannons, I think you're ok to put a Hatch down in your main.
Which leads back to what I was saying, is that the correct response to this is-in base Hatch, then Nydus Hydra/Ling out and go kill him. You don't even need to land in his base with the Nydus.
Hydras dominate Blink Stalkers unless the ratio is 2/1 for the Stalkers (or so it feels sometimes)
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On June 03 2011 22:18 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 07:04 ForDarkness wrote:
hmm. ive been playing this build with varying success. against the lower tier grandmaster pool on SEA and midmasters players on NA 1k-1.4k i have had relative success with this build. However against some of the stronger players ive faced (GMs), they tend to break down the wall with roaches very quickly and expand immediately after. then they throw down 5 spines or so when im gonna move out stuff the ramp full of roaches so i cant blink into the main past spines. after which he just masses lings for awhile and well it goes downhill from there. i was thinking maybe i should have chucked down maybe 2 cannons and another pylon further away when the roaches start hitting my pylon wall so roaches will need to come down the ramp and destroy all the cannons for him to get out. during which i go chuck sentries there, expand and contain rather than go blink. that way it would force him to stay 1 base but of course that would require greater investment. what do u guys think? But you don't know that he's doing that until he does it -- for all you know he's going one-base mutas or nydus, in which case you'd be defeated. If your opponent breaks out with roaches early enough to establish an expansion then maybe you should take your own expansion and play a normal macro game.
Anyway what happened on what of the games was something like this. we cross spawned on metalopolis, so i put a forge at 12 and walled him off later on not letting him expand. in response to my wall off he just went for a build similar to a roach rush once he broke 1 pylon he just streamed the roaches out to destroy the cannon and headed straight for my base. i put 1 cannon down in front of my base while he was moving across the map and he didnt bother pushing in, he did however scout the forge being chrono boosted. he mentioned later that when he saw the forge being chrono-ed he figured it would likely be blink stalkers. he expanded as soon as he broke my cannon and started droning hard while his roaches were on the move. once he had something like 38 drones he just started massing lings and he also got himself an additional macro hatch. he had 32 on mins 6 on gas if i remembered correctly. he left some lings all around the map to see when i moved out. the moment i left my base he chucked down 5 spines. so when i got to his base. he had 5 spines + mass speedling and like maybe 7-8 roaches plus a queen all stuffed on the ramp. from there i found it really hard to do anything. i could try and out micro and snipe units but his production was simple insane. and soon it was difficult to engage once he had a shit ton of lings and his roach speed kicked in. and im sure as you can all guess the game just went down hill from there.
i should probably post the rep of the game and get your opinions. i'll try to put it up after i finish my paper on monday. till then. Back to study!!!! damned university exams. =(
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why didnt you put the replay up where you tried it on me and i built a hatchery with my scouting drone randomly on the map and destroyed you ?
this strat is great against awful players or if you catch someone off guard... not to mention im fine staying 1 base v 1 base against a protoss with a macro hatch... that means little to no tech... which means you will get wrecked.
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Kiwi, I'm curious what you do if you show up to scout and there's a drone patrolling the ramp, do you wait to make forge until you've seen that there is no patrol and do a different build? or is there some way to deal with this drone?
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On June 04 2011 02:29 EZmark wrote:
why didnt you put the replay up where you tried it on me and i built a hatchery with my scouting drone randomly on the map and destroyed you ?
this strat is great against awful players or if you catch someone off guard... not to mention im fine staying 1 base v 1 base against a protoss with a macro hatch... that means little to no tech... which means you will get wrecked.
O: Rep please!
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I don't know how many of the people suggesting hydras have actually played zerg. It costs a lot to tech up to hydra off one base and on top of that hydras are also costly themselves. I've officially unbound hydralisk den in my game out of sheer disappointment and rage, because they used to be my favorites in sc1 .
Try playing zerg a few games in custom against terrible people and see how many hydras one can support off one base. It isn't many. They have such poor mobility that the toss player can actually opt to back up then engage later with a defender's advantage. It's hard to transition out to other tier two tech units once you get hydras.
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just ran up against this and got stomped because I expected an expand, and went nearly all-in roach-ling aggression, to simply see a cannoned+walled ramp.
Now knowing about this strat, what I would go to counter it would be to get roaches off the 1-base to clear the wall-in, then switch to hydra to defend until he expands. The timnig comes late enough i think that even with the wall-in delaying the expand by a large amount, hydras should be out in time+numbers to defend alongside some spines.
I could be wrong though, and obviously the idea situation would be to stop the wall-in, but sometimes that can be missed.
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Ultimately there is some simple math.
Zerg and Protoss will both be on one base as far as resource gathering is concerned. A roach costs half what a blink stalker costs. Blink stalkers are better than vanilla roaches, but not [i]twice[i] as good. Zerg's tech is delayed if he was going hatch first; protoss's is delayed as well if went for the wall-in. Conclusion: Zerg just lays down a macro hatch in-base to produce a roach army that costs as much as Protoss's blink stalker army. From there it's a standard game since neither player will have a clear advantage.
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On June 04 2011 05:21 galivet wrote:
Ultimately there is some simple math.
Zerg and Protoss will both be on one base as far as resource gathering is concerned. A roach costs half what a blink stalker costs. Blink stalkers are better than vanilla roaches, but not [i]twice[i] as good. Zerg's tech is delayed if he was going hatch first; protoss's is delayed as well if went for the wall-in. Conclusion: Zerg just lays down a macro hatch in-base to produce a roach army that costs as much as Protoss's blink stalker army. From there it's a standard game since neither player will have a clear advantage.
I'd hazard blink stalkers microed well are worth over 2x roaches
Just blink back the front ones once their shields go, and kite back from the roaches if he tries to move up among the stalkers.
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On June 03 2011 22:28 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 08:07 CheesyCheese wrote:Dear Protoss Players planning on using this, Please gain vision around your base. Sincerely, Mr. Nydus Worm That's true for any strategy. These players probably don't do a good job of getting vision around their base regardless of whether they're using this strategy or not. This is exactly why Zergs should use Nydus worms more often in "normal" play, not just as a game-ender or an all-in strategy.
While it is true that players should always maintain vision around the base, it's simply the fact that in the situation where they're trying to do this build, they won't be expecting a nydus into their base clean and simple. They will be thinking they are ahead, and since they cannot scout your base, that is all they can really assume. 90% of toss players going this build will expand, which will put them back significantly in army value, so if the nydus is successful, it will nearly always be an instant win.
The above reason being why I now laugh when protoss players block off my expo.
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As a Zerg, I find this very difficut to deal with and wonder why more Protoss players don't do this.
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On June 04 2011 02:47 saer wrote:
Kiwi, I'm curious what you do if you show up to scout and there's a drone patrolling the ramp, do you wait to make forge until you've seen that there is no patrol and do a different build? or is there some way to deal with this drone?
In the current meta game nobody really patrols their drone. I mean if it's in close positions I don't place a forge, therefore you will NEVER scout me in time. And if you just magically assume, which happens in maybe 2% of the games? Then I can go for a forge expand with the forge on the high ground.
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On May 28 2011 15:21 iTzAnglory wrote:
Wow tried this build two times in ~900 Masters, works great! Especially on Tal Darim because they think you are about to fast expand (yes I get greedy with it and build it in my natural, in the main looks too obvious). If you spread out your pylons you can easily stop all Nyduses, and if you delay the one in your main, just throw down 3 cannons and 2 sentries on top of your ramp. Unfortunately it does not work in tournament MLG maps =(
u are only 400 masters. I've been seeing you lie in almost every post and also see you troll with 1 liners about imbalance. I wonder if you'd stop after your tempban is over.
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On June 04 2011 05:21 galivet wrote:
Ultimately there is some simple math.
Zerg and Protoss will both be on one base as far as resource gathering is concerned. A roach costs half what a blink stalker costs. Blink stalkers are better than vanilla roaches, but not [i]twice[i] as good. Zerg's tech is delayed if he was going hatch first; protoss's is delayed as well if went for the wall-in. Conclusion: Zerg just lays down a macro hatch in-base to produce a roach army that costs as much as Protoss's blink stalker army. From there it's a standard game since neither player will have a clear advantage.
You forget the zerg also has to fight through the cannons, I usually throw down a 2nd cannon and then go 2-3 gate void cause almost every zerg responds with trying to break out with spinecrawlers/roaches and once I get the queen and have 2-3 voids + zealots/stalker it's pretty much GG.
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This is like the best strategy ever, the zerg players in silver league have no idea how to stop it
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On June 08 2011 00:38 JLew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 05:21 galivet wrote:
Ultimately there is some simple math.
Zerg and Protoss will both be on one base as far as resource gathering is concerned. A roach costs half what a blink stalker costs. Blink stalkers are better than vanilla roaches, but not [i]twice[i] as good. Zerg's tech is delayed if he was going hatch first; protoss's is delayed as well if went for the wall-in. Conclusion: Zerg just lays down a macro hatch in-base to produce a roach army that costs as much as Protoss's blink stalker army. From there it's a standard game since neither player will have a clear advantage. You forget the zerg also has to fight through the cannons, I usually throw down a 2nd cannon and then go 2-3 gate void cause almost every zerg responds with trying to break out with spinecrawlers/roaches and once I get the queen and have 2-3 voids + zealots/stalker it's pretty much GG.
Well then you aren't really doing the blink stalker follow-up that is part of *this* strategy, which is what I'm saying can sometimes be defeated by a good roach-push. v0v
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On June 08 2011 00:59 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 00:38 JLew wrote:On June 04 2011 05:21 galivet wrote:
Ultimately there is some simple math.
Zerg and Protoss will both be on one base as far as resource gathering is concerned. A roach costs half what a blink stalker costs. Blink stalkers are better than vanilla roaches, but not [i]twice[i] as good. Zerg's tech is delayed if he was going hatch first; protoss's is delayed as well if went for the wall-in. Conclusion: Zerg just lays down a macro hatch in-base to produce a roach army that costs as much as Protoss's blink stalker army. From there it's a standard game since neither player will have a clear advantage. You forget the zerg also has to fight through the cannons, I usually throw down a 2nd cannon and then go 2-3 gate void cause almost every zerg responds with trying to break out with spinecrawlers/roaches and once I get the queen and have 2-3 voids + zealots/stalker it's pretty much GG. Well then you aren't really doing the blink stalker follow-up that is part of *this* strategy, which is what I'm saying can sometimes be defeated by a good roach-push. v0v
Sorry I should have made my post a little more clear, If I do end up doing a pylon ramp block vs. Z I usually aim to go 3 gate blink like this post says ( this thread combined with Squirtle doing something similar in NASL is what got me doing it ). Keep in mind I'm posting from a low diamond level so anything I say may not be relevant for better players.
I have probably done this build or something similar to it 20 times in the last 2 weeks and I think I have only lost twice, both times when I first started doing it. Once was because I screwed up the wall ( lol ) and once because he got a Nydus down in my base and killed everything with speedlings. I usually bring 2 probes and try and hide one on the inside so I can scout later and see their response. If I see a roach warren go down then I will usually postpone getting blink ( I think in a stalker heavy army vs z blink is almost mandatory at one point in the game or another ) and get voids while still throwing in stalkers/zealots as much as possible from my 3 gates.
Usually there comes a point where the zerg kills my initial 3 blocking pylons down with spine crawlers; by this point I have already built a backup pylon further back so that my cannons don't lose power. Usually the zerg gets annoyed and just tries to bust out with roaches as a last ditch effort and and basically I find at this point it doesn't matter what my composition is ( blink stalkers or voids/gateway comp) , I usually win the game right here.
Like everyone has already stated the most important part of this build almost is scouting to make sure he doesn't get up a proxy hatch or nydus, if they have already started a hatch outside and cancel it it's very important to make sure you follow the drone with a probe just to keep tabs on it. Get pylons around the edge of your base to watch for nydus canals and you should be fine. In my opinion if you get your pylon wall up before the zergs pool is finished the game is yours to lose.
I get what you're saying that what I'm defending is a deviation from the 3 gate blink build, but what I'm saying is that that part of the build is pretty open, if you don't think 3 gate blink is going to work then you're not committed to doing it.
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well constructed post, in depth. ill be giving this a shot.. should be fun
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Thanks JLew for the tip about hiding a probe in the zerg's main inside the wall-in!
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Forgive me for the length of the following post; I just thought I'd include everything that needs to be said about playing against this build.
I've spent some time playing against this build and I am 100% comfortable playing against it, even if they get the cannon contain off. Here is a reactive build that I feel is quite solid against the variety of 1-base allins after a cannon contain. I'm not good at formatting but here are the guidelines:
14G/14P runs the risk of not getting lings out in time, so it's safer to go 14P/14G, or even 15P/14G, but 14P is the safest.
Have your second overlord hover near your ramp, when you see the pylons go down immediately bring 3 drones and attack the middle pylon. You may need to reposition the drones to get all 3 attacking.
If you had gone hatch first, cancel the hatchery and use that drone to attack the middle pylon along with the three on the inside, then pull an additional 4 drones to attack the cannon (total of 8 drones), 3 more drones are needed per additional cannon.
Assuming you went 14P... Overlord at 14, save 3 larvae for lings.
As soon as pool finishes build a queen, a spine crawler, and 3 lings. Do not research speed just yet and make sure your drones are off gas.
The lings should come down as the middle pylon is destroyed. Creep tumor with the first 25 energy of your queen, start building a second queen and research speed when you have no larvae for drones. If your lings manage to kill the cannon contain you will be at a significant advantage. Cancel the spine crawler and throw down the hatchery at your natural and resume playing standard, delaying builds and tech by as much as 1 minute.
If your opponent threw down an additional gateway and pylon to make sure your lings can't reach the cannon (you can prevent this from happening if you by chance have a drone outside of the pylon block), then you need to wait for your spine crawler to kill the pylons. Don't worry, this delays any push they were planning by a few seconds and means they were saving minerals instead of building infrastructure. Also, save energy on your second queen for a transfuse when you decide to bust down the ramp.
If your opponent throws down an additional pylon behind the cannon or more cannons, start building another spine crawler. When it finishes you are going to run both spine crawlers, both queens, and any lings necessary to kill the cannon(s). As such, you need creep to be growing beyond your ramp, so make sure you extend the tumor to the edge of the cliff.
After clearing the contain, throw down a hatchery at your natural and keep droning. You are going to need a spore at your natural and at your ramp, since DT's are beginning to be a possibility. Throw them down at around 8:00.
Throw down a macro hatch by 5:30 and put drones back on gas. Throw down an evo chamber at 6:30, and a roach warren around 7:00. Start researching +1 melee as soon as evo chamber finishes.
Resume droning, you can safely get to 34 drones. I safely got to 35 having thrown down a roach warren way too soon, so you can probably get a couple more. Make sure you are spending all queen energy, since you can always spend an extra inject on the macro hatch. If you scout blink research with an overlord, you can opt to throw down some additional spines since you know he is all-in.
The +1+1 blink push hits between 9:30-10:00, which is when +1 melee finishes. You will have ~34 drones, 2 spine crawlers, 1 or 2 spore crawlers, 2 queens, ~10 roaches, and ~20 lings with +1 melee.
Important timings:
5:30 - Macro hatch
6:30 - Evo chamber
7:15 - roach warren and +1 melee
8:00 - spore(s)
8:45 - optional additional spines
Here is a replay against someone who almost note-for-note copied fake KiwiKaki's build order. There are two notable mistakes I made: one is pulling an extra three drones since I wasn't expecting him to gateway/pylon block me. The second is my roach warren timing, which could have been delayed an extra minute. His blink micro isn't perfect or anything but it clearly would not have mattered anyway since my ling production was about to get silly.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-213791.jpg)
Like I said in the beginning of this long and labored post (phew), I am now 100% comfortable playing against this build. Fake KiwiKaki was playing against Zergs who either did not know to properly manage their economy in this situation or resorted to nydus all-inning, so I invite anyone to try it or any pylon-block variants against me --- Exley.293.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 09 2011 05:12 Exley wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Forgive me for the length of the following post; I just thought I'd include everything that needs to be said about playing against this build. I've spent some time playing against this build and I am 100% comfortable playing against it, even if they get the cannon contain off. Here is a reactive build that I feel is quite solid against the variety of 1-base allins after a cannon contain. I'm not good at formatting but here are the guidelines: 14G/14P runs the risk of not getting lings out in time, so it's safer to go 14P/14G, or even 15P/14G. Have your second overlord hover near your ramp, when you see the pylons go down immediately bring 3 drones and attack the middle pylon. You may need to reposition the drones to get all 3 attacking. Overlord at 14, save 3 larvae for lings. As soon as pool finishes build a queen, a spine crawler, and 3 lings. Do not research speed just yet and make sure your drones are off gas. The lings should come down as the middle pylon is destroyed. Creep tumor with the first 25 energy of your queen, start building a second queen and research speed when you have no larvae for drones. If your lings manage to kill the cannon contain, then you will be at a significant advantage. Just throw down the hatchery at your natural and resume playing standard, delaying builds and tech by as much as 1 minute. If your opponent threw down an additional gateway and pylon to make sure your lings can't reach the cannon (you can prevent this from happening if you by chance have a drone outside of the pylon block), then you need to wait for your spine crawler to kill the pylons. Don't worry, this delays any push they were planning by a few seconds and means they were saving minerals instead of building infrastructure. Also, save energy on your second queen for a transfuse when you decide to bust down the ramp. If your opponent throws down an additional pylon behind the cannon or more cannons, start building another spine crawler. When it finishes you are going to run both spine crawlers, both queens, and any lings necessary to kill the cannon(s). As such, you need creep to be growing beyond your ramp, so make sure you extend the tumor to the edge of the cliff. Throw down a hatchery at your natural and keep droning. You are going to need a spore at your natural and at your ramp, since DT's are beginning to be a possibility. Throw them down at around 8:00. Throw down a macro hatch at 5:30 and put drones back on gas. Throw down an evo chamber at 6:30, and a roach warren around 7:00. Start researching +1 melee as soon as evo chamber finishes. Resume droning, you can safely get to 34 drones. I safely got to 35 having thrown down a roach warren way too soon, so you can probably get a couple more. Make sure you are spending all queen energy, since you can always spend an extra inject on the macro hatch. If you scout blink research with an overlord, you can opt to throw down some additional spines since you know he is all-in. The +1+1 blink push hits between 9:30-10:00, which is when +1 melee finishes. You will have ~34 drones, 2 spine crawlers, 1 or 2 spore crawlers, 2 queens, ~10 roaches, and ~20 lings with +1 melee. Important timings:5:30 - Macro hatch 6:30 - Evo chamber 7:15 - roach warren and +1 melee 8:00 - spore(s) 8:45 - optional additional spines Here is a replay against someone who almost note-for-note copied fake KiwiKaki's build order. There are two mistakes: one is pulling an extra three drones since I wasn't expecting him to gateway/pylon block me. The second is my roach warren timing, which could have been delayed an extra minute. His blink micro isn't perfect or anything but it clearly would not have mattered anyway since my ling production was about to get silly. Like I said in the beginning of this long and labored post (phew), I am now 100% comfortable playing against this build. Fake KiwiKaki was playing against Zergs who either did not know to properly manage their economy in this situation or resorted to nydus all-inning, so I invite anyone to try it or any pylon-block variants against me --- Exley.293.
Okay, i'm not sure if anyone's tried this out, but I was wondering if it was possible to reduce the surface area on the pylons...
Currently, people wall off the ramp like this:
+ Show Spoiler +
This gives room for three drones to attack the center pylon, or 2 drones to attack a side pylon.
What if you walled off like this?
+ Show Spoiler +
Walling like this still creates a total walloff (on the low ground) and only lets one drone attack the center pylon. I'm not sure how many drones can attack the side pylons, though-- if it turns out that it's still only 2, this would be a better way.
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On June 09 2011 05:43 Blazinghand wrote:What if you walled off like this? + Show Spoiler +Walling like this still creates a total walloff (on the low ground) and only lets one drone attack the center pylon. I'm not sure how many drones can attack the side pylons, though-- if it turns out that it's still only 2, this would be a better way.
Edit: I'm totally wrong
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
EDIT: Trusty corrected his post above. I'm leaving my original post here to show the rationale for the alternative wall-in, though (I'll spoiler his original reply).
+ Show Spoiler +On June 09 2011 06:05 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 05:43 Blazinghand wrote:What if you walled off like this? + Show Spoiler +Walling like this still creates a total walloff (on the low ground) and only lets one drone attack the center pylon. I'm not sure how many drones can attack the side pylons, though-- if it turns out that it's still only 2, this would be a better way. Your second image doesn't look like a wall off, are you 100% sure? (Can't test - at work). I have seen ace use a similar wall off in your second image, but he built 2 cannons and was using the gaps to micro his probe up & down the ramp for high ground vision - (units could still get past his wall off)
Yeah, I'm sure it walls in. The bottom of a ramp has only 5 "access squares", so 3 2x2 buildings can wall it in like that, or a single 3x3 coupled with a 2x2 building can do so as well. Using pylons this way, you still need 3, and it's still a total wall-in-- I just don't know what the surface area is on the 2 side pylons, how many drones can attack it. It might be superior to the standard wallin, and it might not.
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6-10 pool- After you scout it start a cannon right beside the forge and place a gateway to finish the wall. In this manner only one zergling will be able to attack the cannon at the same time. If you feel unsafe with it you can wall with a forge + gateway + a pylon and place the cannon in the back, but that's wasting unnecessary resources early. Practically a free win, you can go 1 gate VR chronoing out them as fast as you can and attack with three, at that point there is no possible way they can hold after their investment.
I am not bashing it, but I would say a 10p would easily defend against 1 base voidray. All you need to do is not attack with 6 lings =/. Typically if a toss goes forge first against a 10 the zerg has a very easy time getting a second base up. Generally when I see forge first I expect voidrays, so I throw down a hydra den when lair is finished (queens + spores first), if they are going gateway units hydras still wreck gateway units. With the tosses expo delayed you've played their own game against them.
I see a 10p non-aggression being very effective against your build. Do you have any games of a zerg 10p you? I am just curious.
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On June 09 2011 05:43 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 05:12 Exley wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Forgive me for the length of the following post; I just thought I'd include everything that needs to be said about playing against this build. I've spent some time playing against this build and I am 100% comfortable playing against it, even if they get the cannon contain off. Here is a reactive build that I feel is quite solid against the variety of 1-base allins after a cannon contain. I'm not good at formatting but here are the guidelines: 14G/14P runs the risk of not getting lings out in time, so it's safer to go 14P/14G, or even 15P/14G. Have your second overlord hover near your ramp, when you see the pylons go down immediately bring 3 drones and attack the middle pylon. You may need to reposition the drones to get all 3 attacking. Overlord at 14, save 3 larvae for lings. As soon as pool finishes build a queen, a spine crawler, and 3 lings. Do not research speed just yet and make sure your drones are off gas. The lings should come down as the middle pylon is destroyed. Creep tumor with the first 25 energy of your queen, start building a second queen and research speed when you have no larvae for drones. If your lings manage to kill the cannon contain, then you will be at a significant advantage. Just throw down the hatchery at your natural and resume playing standard, delaying builds and tech by as much as 1 minute. If your opponent threw down an additional gateway and pylon to make sure your lings can't reach the cannon (you can prevent this from happening if you by chance have a drone outside of the pylon block), then you need to wait for your spine crawler to kill the pylons. Don't worry, this delays any push they were planning by a few seconds and means they were saving minerals instead of building infrastructure. Also, save energy on your second queen for a transfuse when you decide to bust down the ramp. If your opponent throws down an additional pylon behind the cannon or more cannons, start building another spine crawler. When it finishes you are going to run both spine crawlers, both queens, and any lings necessary to kill the cannon(s). As such, you need creep to be growing beyond your ramp, so make sure you extend the tumor to the edge of the cliff. Throw down a hatchery at your natural and keep droning. You are going to need a spore at your natural and at your ramp, since DT's are beginning to be a possibility. Throw them down at around 8:00. Throw down a macro hatch at 5:30 and put drones back on gas. Throw down an evo chamber at 6:30, and a roach warren around 7:00. Start researching +1 melee as soon as evo chamber finishes. Resume droning, you can safely get to 34 drones. I safely got to 35 having thrown down a roach warren way too soon, so you can probably get a couple more. Make sure you are spending all queen energy, since you can always spend an extra inject on the macro hatch. If you scout blink research with an overlord, you can opt to throw down some additional spines since you know he is all-in. The +1+1 blink push hits between 9:30-10:00, which is when +1 melee finishes. You will have ~34 drones, 2 spine crawlers, 1 or 2 spore crawlers, 2 queens, ~10 roaches, and ~20 lings with +1 melee. Important timings:5:30 - Macro hatch 6:30 - Evo chamber 7:15 - roach warren and +1 melee 8:00 - spore(s) 8:45 - optional additional spines Here is a replay against someone who almost note-for-note copied fake KiwiKaki's build order. There are two mistakes: one is pulling an extra three drones since I wasn't expecting him to gateway/pylon block me. The second is my roach warren timing, which could have been delayed an extra minute. His blink micro isn't perfect or anything but it clearly would not have mattered anyway since my ling production was about to get silly. Like I said in the beginning of this long and labored post (phew), I am now 100% comfortable playing against this build. Fake KiwiKaki was playing against Zergs who either did not know to properly manage their economy in this situation or resorted to nydus all-inning, so I invite anyone to try it or any pylon-block variants against me --- Exley.293. Okay, i'm not sure if anyone's tried this out, but I was wondering if it was possible to reduce the surface area on the pylons... Currently, people wall off the ramp like this: + Show Spoiler +This gives room for three drones to attack the center pylon, or 2 drones to attack a side pylon. What if you walled off like this? + Show Spoiler +Walling like this still creates a total walloff (on the low ground) and only lets one drone attack the center pylon. I'm not sure how many drones can attack the side pylons, though-- if it turns out that it's still only 2, this would be a better way.
With that walloff you can actually get 4 drones to attack each pylon on either end, so this is much worse than the standard walloff.+ Show Spoiler +
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 09 2011 07:10 Exley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 05:43 Blazinghand wrote:On June 09 2011 05:12 Exley wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Forgive me for the length of the following post; I just thought I'd include everything that needs to be said about playing against this build. I've spent some time playing against this build and I am 100% comfortable playing against it, even if they get the cannon contain off. Here is a reactive build that I feel is quite solid against the variety of 1-base allins after a cannon contain. I'm not good at formatting but here are the guidelines: 14G/14P runs the risk of not getting lings out in time, so it's safer to go 14P/14G, or even 15P/14G. Have your second overlord hover near your ramp, when you see the pylons go down immediately bring 3 drones and attack the middle pylon. You may need to reposition the drones to get all 3 attacking. Overlord at 14, save 3 larvae for lings. As soon as pool finishes build a queen, a spine crawler, and 3 lings. Do not research speed just yet and make sure your drones are off gas. The lings should come down as the middle pylon is destroyed. Creep tumor with the first 25 energy of your queen, start building a second queen and research speed when you have no larvae for drones. If your lings manage to kill the cannon contain, then you will be at a significant advantage. Just throw down the hatchery at your natural and resume playing standard, delaying builds and tech by as much as 1 minute. If your opponent threw down an additional gateway and pylon to make sure your lings can't reach the cannon (you can prevent this from happening if you by chance have a drone outside of the pylon block), then you need to wait for your spine crawler to kill the pylons. Don't worry, this delays any push they were planning by a few seconds and means they were saving minerals instead of building infrastructure. Also, save energy on your second queen for a transfuse when you decide to bust down the ramp. If your opponent throws down an additional pylon behind the cannon or more cannons, start building another spine crawler. When it finishes you are going to run both spine crawlers, both queens, and any lings necessary to kill the cannon(s). As such, you need creep to be growing beyond your ramp, so make sure you extend the tumor to the edge of the cliff. Throw down a hatchery at your natural and keep droning. You are going to need a spore at your natural and at your ramp, since DT's are beginning to be a possibility. Throw them down at around 8:00. Throw down a macro hatch at 5:30 and put drones back on gas. Throw down an evo chamber at 6:30, and a roach warren around 7:00. Start researching +1 melee as soon as evo chamber finishes. Resume droning, you can safely get to 34 drones. I safely got to 35 having thrown down a roach warren way too soon, so you can probably get a couple more. Make sure you are spending all queen energy, since you can always spend an extra inject on the macro hatch. If you scout blink research with an overlord, you can opt to throw down some additional spines since you know he is all-in. The +1+1 blink push hits between 9:30-10:00, which is when +1 melee finishes. You will have ~34 drones, 2 spine crawlers, 1 or 2 spore crawlers, 2 queens, ~10 roaches, and ~20 lings with +1 melee. Important timings:5:30 - Macro hatch 6:30 - Evo chamber 7:15 - roach warren and +1 melee 8:00 - spore(s) 8:45 - optional additional spines Here is a replay against someone who almost note-for-note copied fake KiwiKaki's build order. There are two mistakes: one is pulling an extra three drones since I wasn't expecting him to gateway/pylon block me. The second is my roach warren timing, which could have been delayed an extra minute. His blink micro isn't perfect or anything but it clearly would not have mattered anyway since my ling production was about to get silly. Like I said in the beginning of this long and labored post (phew), I am now 100% comfortable playing against this build. Fake KiwiKaki was playing against Zergs who either did not know to properly manage their economy in this situation or resorted to nydus all-inning, so I invite anyone to try it or any pylon-block variants against me --- Exley.293. Okay, i'm not sure if anyone's tried this out, but I was wondering if it was possible to reduce the surface area on the pylons... Currently, people wall off the ramp like this: + Show Spoiler +This gives room for three drones to attack the center pylon, or 2 drones to attack a side pylon. What if you walled off like this? + Show Spoiler +Walling like this still creates a total walloff (on the low ground) and only lets one drone attack the center pylon. I'm not sure how many drones can attack the side pylons, though-- if it turns out that it's still only 2, this would be a better way. With that walloff you can actually get 4 drones to attack each pylon on either end, so this is much worse than the standard walloff. + Show Spoiler +
Aww, turds. well, it was worth a shot
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On June 09 2011 07:20 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 07:10 Exley wrote:On June 09 2011 05:43 Blazinghand wrote:On June 09 2011 05:12 Exley wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Forgive me for the length of the following post; I just thought I'd include everything that needs to be said about playing against this build. I've spent some time playing against this build and I am 100% comfortable playing against it, even if they get the cannon contain off. Here is a reactive build that I feel is quite solid against the variety of 1-base allins after a cannon contain. I'm not good at formatting but here are the guidelines: 14G/14P runs the risk of not getting lings out in time, so it's safer to go 14P/14G, or even 15P/14G. Have your second overlord hover near your ramp, when you see the pylons go down immediately bring 3 drones and attack the middle pylon. You may need to reposition the drones to get all 3 attacking. Overlord at 14, save 3 larvae for lings. As soon as pool finishes build a queen, a spine crawler, and 3 lings. Do not research speed just yet and make sure your drones are off gas. The lings should come down as the middle pylon is destroyed. Creep tumor with the first 25 energy of your queen, start building a second queen and research speed when you have no larvae for drones. If your lings manage to kill the cannon contain, then you will be at a significant advantage. Just throw down the hatchery at your natural and resume playing standard, delaying builds and tech by as much as 1 minute. If your opponent threw down an additional gateway and pylon to make sure your lings can't reach the cannon (you can prevent this from happening if you by chance have a drone outside of the pylon block), then you need to wait for your spine crawler to kill the pylons. Don't worry, this delays any push they were planning by a few seconds and means they were saving minerals instead of building infrastructure. Also, save energy on your second queen for a transfuse when you decide to bust down the ramp. If your opponent throws down an additional pylon behind the cannon or more cannons, start building another spine crawler. When it finishes you are going to run both spine crawlers, both queens, and any lings necessary to kill the cannon(s). As such, you need creep to be growing beyond your ramp, so make sure you extend the tumor to the edge of the cliff. Throw down a hatchery at your natural and keep droning. You are going to need a spore at your natural and at your ramp, since DT's are beginning to be a possibility. Throw them down at around 8:00. Throw down a macro hatch at 5:30 and put drones back on gas. Throw down an evo chamber at 6:30, and a roach warren around 7:00. Start researching +1 melee as soon as evo chamber finishes. Resume droning, you can safely get to 34 drones. I safely got to 35 having thrown down a roach warren way too soon, so you can probably get a couple more. Make sure you are spending all queen energy, since you can always spend an extra inject on the macro hatch. If you scout blink research with an overlord, you can opt to throw down some additional spines since you know he is all-in. The +1+1 blink push hits between 9:30-10:00, which is when +1 melee finishes. You will have ~34 drones, 2 spine crawlers, 1 or 2 spore crawlers, 2 queens, ~10 roaches, and ~20 lings with +1 melee. Important timings:5:30 - Macro hatch 6:30 - Evo chamber 7:15 - roach warren and +1 melee 8:00 - spore(s) 8:45 - optional additional spines Here is a replay against someone who almost note-for-note copied fake KiwiKaki's build order. There are two mistakes: one is pulling an extra three drones since I wasn't expecting him to gateway/pylon block me. The second is my roach warren timing, which could have been delayed an extra minute. His blink micro isn't perfect or anything but it clearly would not have mattered anyway since my ling production was about to get silly. Like I said in the beginning of this long and labored post (phew), I am now 100% comfortable playing against this build. Fake KiwiKaki was playing against Zergs who either did not know to properly manage their economy in this situation or resorted to nydus all-inning, so I invite anyone to try it or any pylon-block variants against me --- Exley.293. Okay, i'm not sure if anyone's tried this out, but I was wondering if it was possible to reduce the surface area on the pylons... Currently, people wall off the ramp like this: + Show Spoiler +This gives room for three drones to attack the center pylon, or 2 drones to attack a side pylon. What if you walled off like this? + Show Spoiler +Walling like this still creates a total walloff (on the low ground) and only lets one drone attack the center pylon. I'm not sure how many drones can attack the side pylons, though-- if it turns out that it's still only 2, this would be a better way. With that walloff you can actually get 4 drones to attack each pylon on either end, so this is much worse than the standard walloff. + Show Spoiler + Aww, turds. well, it was worth a shot
It takes a lot of clicking to set your workers up like that. Additionally, you can attack the one on the edge through the gap, requiring them to move their guys around again. The point of the L wall is that if they don't pull workers, you don't have to place the 3rd pylon, which is pretty huge for jumpstarting your gateway a little later.
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L wall looks dumb because 4 drones can hit the side pylon. If the drones aren't pulled quick enough. the protoss can place 3 cannons as a reinforcement wall, but that's not that great in of itself and a waste of resources.
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On June 09 2011 08:09 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 07:20 Blazinghand wrote:On June 09 2011 07:10 Exley wrote:On June 09 2011 05:43 Blazinghand wrote:On June 09 2011 05:12 Exley wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Forgive me for the length of the following post; I just thought I'd include everything that needs to be said about playing against this build. I've spent some time playing against this build and I am 100% comfortable playing against it, even if they get the cannon contain off. Here is a reactive build that I feel is quite solid against the variety of 1-base allins after a cannon contain. I'm not good at formatting but here are the guidelines: 14G/14P runs the risk of not getting lings out in time, so it's safer to go 14P/14G, or even 15P/14G. Have your second overlord hover near your ramp, when you see the pylons go down immediately bring 3 drones and attack the middle pylon. You may need to reposition the drones to get all 3 attacking. Overlord at 14, save 3 larvae for lings. As soon as pool finishes build a queen, a spine crawler, and 3 lings. Do not research speed just yet and make sure your drones are off gas. The lings should come down as the middle pylon is destroyed. Creep tumor with the first 25 energy of your queen, start building a second queen and research speed when you have no larvae for drones. If your lings manage to kill the cannon contain, then you will be at a significant advantage. Just throw down the hatchery at your natural and resume playing standard, delaying builds and tech by as much as 1 minute. If your opponent threw down an additional gateway and pylon to make sure your lings can't reach the cannon (you can prevent this from happening if you by chance have a drone outside of the pylon block), then you need to wait for your spine crawler to kill the pylons. Don't worry, this delays any push they were planning by a few seconds and means they were saving minerals instead of building infrastructure. Also, save energy on your second queen for a transfuse when you decide to bust down the ramp. If your opponent throws down an additional pylon behind the cannon or more cannons, start building another spine crawler. When it finishes you are going to run both spine crawlers, both queens, and any lings necessary to kill the cannon(s). As such, you need creep to be growing beyond your ramp, so make sure you extend the tumor to the edge of the cliff. Throw down a hatchery at your natural and keep droning. You are going to need a spore at your natural and at your ramp, since DT's are beginning to be a possibility. Throw them down at around 8:00. Throw down a macro hatch at 5:30 and put drones back on gas. Throw down an evo chamber at 6:30, and a roach warren around 7:00. Start researching +1 melee as soon as evo chamber finishes. Resume droning, you can safely get to 34 drones. I safely got to 35 having thrown down a roach warren way too soon, so you can probably get a couple more. Make sure you are spending all queen energy, since you can always spend an extra inject on the macro hatch. If you scout blink research with an overlord, you can opt to throw down some additional spines since you know he is all-in. The +1+1 blink push hits between 9:30-10:00, which is when +1 melee finishes. You will have ~34 drones, 2 spine crawlers, 1 or 2 spore crawlers, 2 queens, ~10 roaches, and ~20 lings with +1 melee. Important timings:5:30 - Macro hatch 6:30 - Evo chamber 7:15 - roach warren and +1 melee 8:00 - spore(s) 8:45 - optional additional spines Here is a replay against someone who almost note-for-note copied fake KiwiKaki's build order. There are two mistakes: one is pulling an extra three drones since I wasn't expecting him to gateway/pylon block me. The second is my roach warren timing, which could have been delayed an extra minute. His blink micro isn't perfect or anything but it clearly would not have mattered anyway since my ling production was about to get silly. Like I said in the beginning of this long and labored post (phew), I am now 100% comfortable playing against this build. Fake KiwiKaki was playing against Zergs who either did not know to properly manage their economy in this situation or resorted to nydus all-inning, so I invite anyone to try it or any pylon-block variants against me --- Exley.293. Okay, i'm not sure if anyone's tried this out, but I was wondering if it was possible to reduce the surface area on the pylons... Currently, people wall off the ramp like this: + Show Spoiler +This gives room for three drones to attack the center pylon, or 2 drones to attack a side pylon. What if you walled off like this? + Show Spoiler +Walling like this still creates a total walloff (on the low ground) and only lets one drone attack the center pylon. I'm not sure how many drones can attack the side pylons, though-- if it turns out that it's still only 2, this would be a better way. With that walloff you can actually get 4 drones to attack each pylon on either end, so this is much worse than the standard walloff. + Show Spoiler + Aww, turds. well, it was worth a shot It takes a lot of clicking to set your workers up like that. Additionally, you can attack the one on the edge through the gap, requiring them to move their guys around again. The point of the L wall is that if they don't pull workers, you don't have to place the 3rd pylon, which is pretty huge for jumpstarting your gateway a little later.
I still don't see any benefits to this type of wall. Lets say they don't pull a single drone and let your cannon wall complete. The cannon will be in range of a spine crawler on the high ground, which is a disadvantage compared to the standard pylon block.
Now lets say the Zerg actually knows what he is doing and pulls 4 drones, the correct number for this type of wall. He's going to have at least 3 drones attacking the pylon. Sure, you can do damage to one of the drones, but it won't change the fact that at least 3 and sometimes 4 drones will be hitting that pylon-- just keep right-clicking the pylon and eventually all 4 will lock in place attacking. What I'm trying to say is that if you L-wall me I will 100% break the pylon faster than a standard pylon block.
Here's another hypothetical. Lets say you finish the initial 2 pylons and throw down a cannon, but the Zerg sees it now and sends 4 drones. Guess what; that cannon isn't going to finish, since 3+ drones will deny a cannon if they start attacking it soon enough. You'll need to spend an additional 150 minerals on another cannon behind it and throw down additional buildings to protect against lings assuming your opponent went a standard pool opening.
Besides, a standard walloff has the same benefit that you list, being that you only need 2 pylons assuming they finish. I do not see a single benefit from the L-wall, sorry.
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What is everyone's opinion of a proxy stargate instead of the 3gate blink follow up? I've had success with the blink stalkers, but in the odd case things don't go my way, I've been finding myself facing the mass roach style that's all the rage these days and I honestly am having so much trouble against it. Just wondering if a void transition would work and maybe steer zerg away from roaches?
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On June 09 2011 07:10 Exley wrote:With that walloff you can actually get 4 drones to attack each pylon on either end, so this is much worse than the standard walloff. + Show Spoiler +
I feel like such an idiot. This is awesome, I always thought the L-wall-in was actually superior because I could only hit the middle pylon with one drone, but now I realize that the side pylons can be attacked with more than 2 drones!
Thanks. :D
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Hi guys,
I'm still having trouble with my timing on this, would those of you having success with it be willing to post some more replays of it working? Thanks!
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On June 03 2011 03:41 AustinCM wrote:
Sometimes when I look at strats like these and just get sad and think back to the day when I thought playing Zerg was fun...
this post belongs in your tear-flooded diary, not in this thread
User was warned for this post
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lol i felt lucky i read this post when i played against this XD
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I encountered this build yesterday on ladder and was not surprised to see this thread later that night. I obviously dealt with the wall off very easily with spines, but I made the mistake of thinking I had him contained on one base and could freely expand and drone (I parked roach/ling army outside his ramp but did not try to break it due to cannons).
Unfortunately I did not think about the fact that he would just make 12-15 blink stalkers and walk right up to my base, where i had been droning hard and had my army completely out of place. I would love to see that "How to Counter" section promised in the OP.
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hey, thanks for the guide OP!
I have had great success with this build on ladder versus zerg. However, the few times I DO lose, it's always to either:
- They tech to roach extremely quick, bust the wall down with queen/spines/roaches (before 6 minute mark). From there, they take their expo immediately while simultanously pressuring me with roaches
- Extremely fast drop play w/ zerglings and hydras (around 7 minute mark)
If anyone can give me tips on how to react to these situations when I am using this build, please let me know! Thanks!
Also, if there is a different/better version of PvZ builds like this, please do share ^^
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On February 08 2012 05:37 LOLZEY wrote:
hey, thanks for the guide OP!
I have had great success with this build on ladder versus zerg. However, the few times I DO lose, it's always to either:
- They tech to roach extremely quick, bust the wall down with queen/spines/roaches (before 6 minute mark). From there, they take their expo immediately while simultanously pressuring me with roaches
- Extremely fast drop play w/ zerglings and hydras (around 7 minute mark)
If anyone can give me tips on how to react to these situations when I am using this build, please let me know! Thanks!
Also, if there is a different/better version of PvZ builds like this, please do share ^^
Playing against roaches can be somewhat difficult, but with good control and good timings it can be done. If they are breaking the wall with roaches, you will see how many they have if they are breaking the pylons and cannon. Use your probe on a xel naga, or simply scout if they are pushing for your base, and just calculate if you can holds the wish with stalkers. An early push with roaches on a small map may require you to make as many as two cannons, but usually you will be safe with one cannon and just getting your stalkers with a crisp timing.
See what they are doing with their roaches, because ideally, you'll cancel the cannons, as then your push is weaker. Chances are they are going to go back, at this point I recommend chronoing blink instead of your upgrades because you want to have the mobility very early to deny creep spread - this is very important. Engaging far on creep is v ery difficult because you can't run away from roaches and speedlings which they innevitebly will have. Off creep you can kite the lings while taking minimal damage from the roaches.
If the zerg insists on going for pure roach, just keep poking in, sniping a few roaches while only taking shield damage, as you can retreat safely whenever. Keep wearing down the roach count, stay out of the range of spine crawlers while building up your stalker count. If spines are there without any roach or ling support take them out quickly.
As for a hydra drop build, it comes later than 7 minutes, and it really should not be any problem to deal with. If you see they have one base you should be expecting some nydus, drop, muta, infestor play, so spread pylons all over your base, make sure the map is well scouted (no hidden expoes), and amass your army to atleast 56~ supply until moving out. Your stalker count should be large enough to hold any hydra play, remember hydras are super slow, so move out of the range of them and then attack the zerglings. You should have more stalkers than hydras plus better upgrades. Easy win.
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On June 18 2011 00:57 talleyhooo wrote:
I encountered this build yesterday on ladder and was not surprised to see this thread later that night. I obviously dealt with the wall off very easily with spines, but I made the mistake of thinking I had him contained on one base and could freely expand and drone (I parked roach/ling army outside his ramp but did not try to break it due to cannons).
Unfortunately I did not think about the fact that he would just make 12-15 blink stalkers and walk right up to my base, where i had been droning hard and had my army completely out of place. I would love to see that "How to Counter" section promised in the OP.
Sorry about that, I've been really busy, hopefully I'll add it eventually. I'm glad the build is gathering up wins though!
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On February 08 2012 05:55 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 05:37 LOLZEY wrote:
hey, thanks for the guide OP!
I have had great success with this build on ladder versus zerg. However, the few times I DO lose, it's always to either:
- They tech to roach extremely quick, bust the wall down with queen/spines/roaches (before 6 minute mark). From there, they take their expo immediately while simultanously pressuring me with roaches
- Extremely fast drop play w/ zerglings and hydras (around 7 minute mark)
If anyone can give me tips on how to react to these situations when I am using this build, please let me know! Thanks!
Also, if there is a different/better version of PvZ builds like this, please do share ^^ Playing against roaches can be somewhat difficult, but with good control and good timings it can be done. If they are breaking the wall with roaches, you will see how many they have if they are breaking the pylons and cannon. Use your probe on a xel naga, or simply scout if they are pushing for your base, and just calculate if you can holds the wish with stalkers. An early push with roaches on a small map may require you to make as many as two cannons, but usually you will be safe with one cannon and just getting your stalkers with a crisp timing. See what they are doing with their roaches, because ideally, you'll cancel the cannons, as then your push is weaker. Chances are they are going to go back, at this point I recommend chronoing blink instead of your upgrades because you want to have the mobility very early to deny creep spread - this is very important. Engaging far on creep is v ery difficult because you can't run away from roaches and speedlings which they innevitebly will have. Off creep you can kite the lings while taking minimal damage from the roaches. If the zerg insists on going for pure roach, just keep poking in, sniping a few roaches while only taking shield damage, as you can retreat safely whenever. Keep wearing down the roach count, stay out of the range of spine crawlers while building up your stalker count. If spines are there without any roach or ling support take them out quickly. As for a hydra drop build, it comes later than 7 minutes, and it really should not be any problem to deal with. If you see they have one base you should be expecting some nydus, drop, muta, infestor play, so spread pylons all over your base, make sure the map is well scouted (no hidden expoes), and amass your army to atleast 56~ supply until moving out. Your stalker count should be large enough to hold any hydra play, remember hydras are super slow, so move out of the range of them and then attack the zerglings. You should have more stalkers than hydras plus better upgrades. Easy win.
Wow, thanks for such a detailed and quick answer!
The thing with playing against High-diamond/Masters Zergs (who I play I against on ladder), is that they push out with around 10-12 roaches before my WG finishes, which forces me to get cannons / sentry. However, they also take an expo right after they push out and contain me, so by the time I have enough stalkers to push out, they have like 3+ spine crawlers, a decent drone count and eventually outmacro me on 2-bases. I know you suggest me micro my stalkers to dwindle their forces, but oftentimes well-placed spine crawlers and good decision-making from zerg makes it extremely difficult to break the spine-crawler wall.
Also, they sometimes metagame me and only show a few roaches, but when I feel safe to push in with my blink stalkers, they come in with a swarm of slings (like 30-40) and dwindle my stalker count considerably.
What would you do in these situations? :S
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So does anyone have a good play against this? Just had a guy do this to me and I won but just got lucky that he played bad in his follow up. Was trapped in my base and used one spine to take down the 3 pylons before expoing. It seemed really late though and I would prefer something more solid
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On February 09 2012 04:02 TheMooseHeed wrote:
So does anyone have a good play against this? Just had a guy do this to me and I won but just got lucky that he played bad in his follow up. Was trapped in my base and used one spine to take down the 3 pylons before expoing. It seemed really late though and I would prefer something more solid
there is no way to deal against this. This is the reason, why on tournament maps are always neutral depots on the lower ground. When you see someone doing this against you, the best way to deal against this is to leave. It is a waste of time to play against such a bullshit. Probably you can go Nydus and pray, that the P is to silly to execute the strat well.
Btw, i cannot understand, why Blizzard is not adding neutral depots. And in addition to that, they fix the only way, how to deal with this. Sometimes, blizzard is really funny.
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On June 18 2011 00:57 talleyhooo wrote:
I encountered this build yesterday on ladder and was not surprised to see this thread later that night. I obviously dealt with the wall off very easily with spines, but I made the mistake of thinking I had him contained on one base and could freely expand and drone (I parked roach/ling army outside his ramp but did not try to break it due to cannons).
Unfortunately I did not think about the fact that he would just make 12-15 blink stalkers and walk right up to my base, where i had been droning hard and had my army completely out of place. I would love to see that "How to Counter" section promised in the OP.
No need I'll tell you how to counter. Don't get pylon blocked haha it's that simple. Don't expect to win after getting pylon blocked. If the Protoss loses after successfully containing you to 1 base forcing you to allin or play from extremely far behind. Beyond a lucky nydus your not winning the game no matter if he goes 3 gate blink or stargate or anything. Unfortunately it's true you really do need to patrol a worker even if not hatch firsting unless you like 8 pool if you want to deny the block. And with all that said, OP I appreciate you wanting to write a guide and it definitely looks like you put thought into your post. But I'm not entirely sure this guide is needed. As it's nothing more than (like I explained above) winning via pylon blocking. Everyone knows about a 3 gate blink build. So the real gist of the build is "if you succeed at pylon blocking. A 3 gate blink followup is effective". Wouldn't it be odd if right now I posted my own except replaced 3gate blink with stargate? I think it would because it's still all determined by the pylon block so it's not a real guide based on a solid foundation. It's just showing the effectiveness of pylon blocking which other guides (which actually have the center of the guide around the pylon block) show also
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does this still work?
User was warned for this post
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On December 04 2012 06:57 freizya wrote:
does this still work?
Yea, I do this sometimes when I get matched up with lower ranking or unfavored players I think may not know how to handle it. That's just the problem with it though is that your success is banking on your opponents inability to handle the situation. If the Zerg reacts quick and drone drills properly they will easily beat this and laugh. I believe that when this strategy was first introduced the drone drilling technique was unknown to the community, which accounts for the seeming unbeatability of this back then. I've gotta say that this still works pretty well from Bronze up till around Top 8 Diamond. I've got a really great win rate with it, and it's honestly a pretty fuckin fun strat. You will make so many people rage it's fantastic, people get REAALLLY mad, it's one of the brightest parts of my day lol, glgl!
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doesnt work on maps like daybreak
you literally have no minerals and drones just cut through pylons too fast
you cant reinforce with like 1 gateway
they can get a very superior drone count early and drone drill 2 places at the same time.
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On December 04 2012 16:08 HyyeRforAiuR wrote:Yea, I do this sometimes when I get matched up with lower ranking or unfavored players I think may not know how to handle it. That's just the problem with it though is that your success is banking on your opponents inability to handle the situation. If the Zerg reacts quick and drone drills properly they will easily beat this and laugh. I believe that when this strategy was first introduced the drone drilling technique was unknown to the community, which accounts for the seeming unbeatability of this back then. I've gotta say that this still works pretty well from Bronze up till around Top 8 Diamond. I've got a really great win rate with it, and it's honestly a pretty fuckin fun strat. You will make so many people rage it's fantastic, people get REAALLLY mad, it's one of the brightest parts of my day lol, glgl!
It's one obnoxious strat, don't mind me while I judge you >_>
Also, drone drilling doesn't work. A good Protoss will reinforce the wall, and even if they don't then Zerg loses >300 minerals of mining time so it's actually worth it for P, even if they don't get a free win. I mean on the off-chance you somehow pull off the drone drill then it's better than losing, but I just leave when I get pylon blocked because it's not worth my time, considering that no tournaments allow such strategies.
It is definitely rage inducing, and definitely a terrible way to play PvZ. Nothing personal or anything, I mean you can play the game however you want since it doesn't hurt me (ladder is fairly meaningless IMO), but what are you going to do in HotS, where they have actually fixed it? You'll have very little standard PvZ experience, and I see that hurting you quite a bit. Assuming you play for fun though, I guess that doesn't matter
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Doing this strat is bad and won't make you better at all, while not working on tournaments, I see no reason whatsoever to do this since even if you only care about fun there are many better ways to do funky stuff or cheese, this is simply an abuse.
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I hate it when i get pylon blocked. I won't be surprise if the next patch Blizzard will release new maps with ramps that you cannot pylon block. These maps already in HOTS beta. Should be in WOL as well.
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It's one thing to cheese every game and a other to be original with your build and mixing it up with some of those builds that ppl have never seen, great guide ! I love it, i hope we get to see some more of those kind of builds, ive been playing sc2 for 2 years and a half now and i still love the game but it can get repetitive if you play standard every game ... :/
Thx for the guide man
Ace
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On December 05 2012 07:29 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 16:08 HyyeRforAiuR wrote:On December 04 2012 06:57 freizya wrote:
does this still work? Yea, I do this sometimes when I get matched up with lower ranking or unfavored players I think may not know how to handle it. That's just the problem with it though is that your success is banking on your opponents inability to handle the situation. If the Zerg reacts quick and drone drills properly they will easily beat this and laugh. I believe that when this strategy was first introduced the drone drilling technique was unknown to the community, which accounts for the seeming unbeatability of this back then. I've gotta say that this still works pretty well from Bronze up till around Top 8 Diamond. I've got a really great win rate with it, and it's honestly a pretty fuckin fun strat. You will make so many people rage it's fantastic, people get REAALLLY mad, it's one of the brightest parts of my day lol, glgl! It's one obnoxious strat, don't mind me while I judge you >_> Also, drone drilling doesn't work. A good Protoss will reinforce the wall, and even if they don't then Zerg loses >300 minerals of mining time so it's actually worth it for P, even if they don't get a free win. I mean on the off-chance you somehow pull off the drone drill then it's better than losing, but I just leave when I get pylon blocked because it's not worth my time, considering that no tournaments allow such strategies. It is definitely rage inducing, and definitely a terrible way to play PvZ. Nothing personal or anything, I mean you can play the game however you want since it doesn't hurt me (ladder is fairly meaningless IMO), but what are you going to do in HotS, where they have actually fixed it? You'll have very little standard PvZ experience, and I see that hurting you quite a bit. Assuming you play for fun though, I guess that doesn't matter
What league are you even in? And I love how you are telling me what kind of experience I have lol. What a complete joke if you paid attention, I said I only do this to scrubs who I think won't know how to handle it. Despite your in depth analysis of my play style and level based off hard evidence you collected, I assure you I have PLENTY of standard PvZ experience, it's my best matchup and I have the most wins in my league so sh
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On December 07 2012 06:03 HyyeRforAiuR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 07:29 Mavvie wrote:On December 04 2012 16:08 HyyeRforAiuR wrote:On December 04 2012 06:57 freizya wrote:
does this still work? Yea, I do this sometimes when I get matched up with lower ranking or unfavored players I think may not know how to handle it. That's just the problem with it though is that your success is banking on your opponents inability to handle the situation. If the Zerg reacts quick and drone drills properly they will easily beat this and laugh. I believe that when this strategy was first introduced the drone drilling technique was unknown to the community, which accounts for the seeming unbeatability of this back then. I've gotta say that this still works pretty well from Bronze up till around Top 8 Diamond. I've got a really great win rate with it, and it's honestly a pretty fuckin fun strat. You will make so many people rage it's fantastic, people get REAALLLY mad, it's one of the brightest parts of my day lol, glgl! It's one obnoxious strat, don't mind me while I judge you >_> Also, drone drilling doesn't work. A good Protoss will reinforce the wall, and even if they don't then Zerg loses >300 minerals of mining time so it's actually worth it for P, even if they don't get a free win. I mean on the off-chance you somehow pull off the drone drill then it's better than losing, but I just leave when I get pylon blocked because it's not worth my time, considering that no tournaments allow such strategies. It is definitely rage inducing, and definitely a terrible way to play PvZ. Nothing personal or anything, I mean you can play the game however you want since it doesn't hurt me (ladder is fairly meaningless IMO), but what are you going to do in HotS, where they have actually fixed it? You'll have very little standard PvZ experience, and I see that hurting you quite a bit. Assuming you play for fun though, I guess that doesn't matter What league are you even in? And I love how you are telling me what kind of experience I have lol. What a complete joke if you paid attention, I said I only do this to scrubs who I think won't know how to handle it. Despite your in depth analysis of my play style and level based off hard evidence you collected, I assure you I have PLENTY of standard PvZ experience, it's my best matchup and I have the most wins in my league so sh
He's a masters Zerg.
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So glad this is fixed in HOTS, no more of these embarrassing clowns pretending their playstyle is a legitimate strategy. Banned since the GSL open seasons in every tournament worldwide, Blizzard finally decides to affirm that this is not only imbalanced and unfair at the highest levels of play, but inappropriate for even the most casual of players in every single league. If you ever make it back to masters in HOTS, you might have actually earned it rather than cheating your way through.
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On December 07 2012 06:03 HyyeRforAiuR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 07:29 Mavvie wrote:On December 04 2012 16:08 HyyeRforAiuR wrote:On December 04 2012 06:57 freizya wrote:
does this still work? Yea, I do this sometimes when I get matched up with lower ranking or unfavored players I think may not know how to handle it. That's just the problem with it though is that your success is banking on your opponents inability to handle the situation. If the Zerg reacts quick and drone drills properly they will easily beat this and laugh. I believe that when this strategy was first introduced the drone drilling technique was unknown to the community, which accounts for the seeming unbeatability of this back then. I've gotta say that this still works pretty well from Bronze up till around Top 8 Diamond. I've got a really great win rate with it, and it's honestly a pretty fuckin fun strat. You will make so many people rage it's fantastic, people get REAALLLY mad, it's one of the brightest parts of my day lol, glgl! It's one obnoxious strat, don't mind me while I judge you >_> Also, drone drilling doesn't work. A good Protoss will reinforce the wall, and even if they don't then Zerg loses >300 minerals of mining time so it's actually worth it for P, even if they don't get a free win. I mean on the off-chance you somehow pull off the drone drill then it's better than losing, but I just leave when I get pylon blocked because it's not worth my time, considering that no tournaments allow such strategies. It is definitely rage inducing, and definitely a terrible way to play PvZ. Nothing personal or anything, I mean you can play the game however you want since it doesn't hurt me (ladder is fairly meaningless IMO), but what are you going to do in HotS, where they have actually fixed it? You'll have very little standard PvZ experience, and I see that hurting you quite a bit. Assuming you play for fun though, I guess that doesn't matter What league are you even in? And I love how you are telling me what kind of experience I have lol. What a complete joke if you paid attention, I said I only do this to scrubs who I think won't know how to handle it. Despite your in depth analysis of my play style and level based off hard evidence you collected, I assure you I have PLENTY of standard PvZ experience, it's my best matchup and I have the most wins in my league so sh
Just tested it in a vs AI game, if you react as soon as the first pylon is planted it's about 1 minute of mining time. 16 drones x 1 minute = 16 minutes of mining time. 16 minutes x 40 minerals/minute = 640 minerals, so round to about 600 minerals to compensate for inaccuracies. That's still an insanely good trade for Protoss, even if they have to cancel 2 cannons and lose all three pylons.
While I don't know exactly what your experience is, considering that one can assume that 1/3 games are against players whom see you as "slightly favoured" or better, you only play 2/3 of your ZvP's, which is a lot less than if you didn't.
I'm actually mid masters, and while I don't have the most wins in my league or division, I have pretty decent MMR and knowledge of the game. Still no good though, and am often wrong. ZvP is my worst matchup, I have an impressive 16% winrate in it this season. Every loss is to 3 base colossus pushes haha, I'm one stubborn motherfucker to not learn how to play against them.
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On December 07 2012 07:32 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
So glad this is fixed in HOTS, no more of these embarrassing clowns pretending their playstyle is a legitimate strategy. Banned since the GSL open seasons in every tournament worldwide, Blizzard finally decides to affirm that this is not only imbalanced and unfair at the highest levels of play, but inappropriate for even the most casual of players in every single league. If you ever make it back to masters in HOTS, you might have actually earned it rather than cheating your way through.
Thats about how I feel. and that includes the bunker blocks from terrans as well.
When toss does this to me i decide to do some crazy stuff too. For starters i always drone scout to see whats up, so if a toss just rolls up and blocks my ramp, i plant and let finish the hatch in their natural. then i make a queen and try to spread some creep in their base. at minimum this forces 1 base to 1 base. him with cannons, me with spines.
from there its just a matter of whos 1 base play is tougher, as both races have many options to go on from that point.
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I have been doing +2 Blink Stalkers off two base recently, I will defo have to give this ago, since blink stalkers is my best and favourite thing to go!
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On December 07 2012 07:32 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
So glad this is fixed in HOTS, no more of these embarrassing clowns pretending their playstyle is a legitimate strategy. Banned since the GSL open seasons in every tournament worldwide, Blizzard finally decides to affirm that this is not only imbalanced and unfair at the highest levels of play, but inappropriate for even the most casual of players in every single league. If you ever make it back to masters in HOTS, you might have actually earned it rather than cheating your way through.
What fix do they have in HotS? Neutral supply depot @ ramp?
This strat works, way too well, vs zerg players such as myself. The most annoying I have seen as of late: combo of pylons with a gateway at ramp. So not only could I not get out, I was forced to make D to defend zealots that would spawn INTO my main! Cannons behind it was icing on the cake. I rage at this shit so hard.
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If any of you cheesy motherfuckers like myself still have fun using this strat on the scrubs, on the new map 'Akilon Flats', the drone drilling technique will not work against a 3 pylon block. I have had this confirmed by many whining and squirming victims on the ladder, happy cheesing boys!!
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I've already done this, the most dangerous thing might be nydus for sure.
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Ah, I remember doing this a long time ago. It was fun until you actually lose a game... then you feel like the worst player ever.
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On December 14 2012 05:31 theMutt wrote:
What fix do they have in HotS? Neutral supply depot @ ramp?
That's not a neutral supply depot, but it's the same. Blizzard added some "rocks platform" on HOTS.
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This is actually not a cheese. Cheese are vald strategies, but extreme. This is just an issue of map design that is fixed in competitions, and by blizzard in recent (/decent) maps.
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Start both gas asap, get 2nd queen. 1 queen to kill 1-2 pylons otheri injects make around 16 drones. Mine of both gases for fast speed and bane nest mass lings after 16ish drones(pull drones off gas around 250gas). After the queen breakes the pylon just runby and if needed bust his front. Collect easy win (around 60-70% you will win).
On bigger ramps like Antiga/Akilon/daybreak the bust might not even be necessary as most P just follow it up with greedy/tech play thus having limited sentry count if any. Dont forget to let him see the gas and then suicide ovie for better chances of the bust(sentry will most likely chase/check it for possible nydus)
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I just patrol a drone on the bottom of my ramp between 15-17 supply. It costs you a few minerals, but even if it prevents one protoss in a hundred games from pulling this retarded crap on me it's completely worth it.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BtJYPl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lztMsl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pqAxo.jpg)
