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On June 18 2011 00:46 Alejandrisha wrote:
Also I have an update on the nAni variant.
The build is like this:
9 Pylon
11 Gate
14 Gas
16 Pylon
17 Core
20 wg/nex
20 2 gates
20 stalker, resume probe production.
He gets the WG out slightly faster than our new variant but I have a huge problem with this build.
He is forcing the build to work the same way it did pre-patch after the patch. I think that, in all of your builds, you should try to take whatever a patch throws at you as an oppurtunity to squeeze out something extra instead of trying to make sacrifices to get the same thing you used to be able to get.
He doesn't get his stalker before his gateways which leaves him vulnerable to reapers and every other kind of pre-warpgate shenanigan. It is essentially doing the same build but sacrificing economy and safety to get pre-wg nerf WG timing.
I've also looked into nAni's variation of the build in the last couple of days and have to agree with you that it seems like he takes unnecessary risks early on, especially against the very standard reaper.
Nevertheless, obviously the 11 gate enables him to get core and warpgate tech a bit earlier, which I think is crucial when you want to play a hard pressure build, maybe by even going 5 gate afterwards. In his MLG-game on Testbug vs drewbie the warp-ins came literally just in time, he warped into the face of drewbies small force trying to take out the forward pylon. In his DH-game on Meta vs Strelok it also seemed to me as if Strelok was surprised by the very early timing of his 3 gate push after being quite annoying with reaper/bunker himself.
Personally, I've come to the conclusion, that the build isn't plain "bad" as Markwerf has put it, but has a cheesy element in it - meaning, the nAni-variation takes pretty big risks in order to gain an advantage...which is basicly the definition of a cheese. In my opinion, the way nAni plays it out is neither inferior nor superior to the standard way of executing this build - it's simply something else. A variation of the build that risks losing the game early on but has a chance of demolishing your opponent if he doesn't scout/react properly. I think it's nice to have this BO in store for a BoX.
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Absolutely love this build 
On shakuras I get the second gas faster and go for 3sentries instead of 3stalkers: free superfast expo :D
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On June 21 2011 17:46 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 00:46 Alejandrisha wrote:
Also I have an update on the nAni variant.
The build is like this:
9 Pylon
11 Gate
14 Gas
16 Pylon
17 Core
20 wg/nex
20 2 gates
20 stalker, resume probe production.
He gets the WG out slightly faster than our new variant but I have a huge problem with this build.
He is forcing the build to work the same way it did pre-patch after the patch. I think that, in all of your builds, you should try to take whatever a patch throws at you as an oppurtunity to squeeze out something extra instead of trying to make sacrifices to get the same thing you used to be able to get.
He doesn't get his stalker before his gateways which leaves him vulnerable to reapers and every other kind of pre-warpgate shenanigan. It is essentially doing the same build but sacrificing economy and safety to get pre-wg nerf WG timing. I've also looked into nAni's variation of the build in the last couple of days and have to agree with you that it seems like he takes unnecessary risks early on, especially against the very standard reaper. Nevertheless, obviously the 11 gate enables him to get core and warpgate tech a bit earlier, which I think is crucial when you want to play a hard pressure build, maybe by even going 5 gate afterwards. In his MLG-game on Testbug vs drewbie the warp-ins came literally just in time, he warped into the face of drewbies small force trying to take out the forward pylon. In his DH-game on Meta vs Strelok it also seemed to me as if Strelok was surprised by the very early timing of his 3 gate push after being quite annoying with reaper/bunker himself. Personally, I've come to the conclusion, that the build isn't plain "bad" as Markwerf has put it, but has a cheesy element in it - meaning, the nAni-variation takes pretty big risks in order to gain an advantage...which is basicly the definition of a cheese. In my opinion, the way nAni plays it out is neither inferior nor superior to the standard way of executing this build - it's simply something else. A variation of the build that risks losing the game early on but has a chance of demolishing your opponent if he doesn't scout/react properly. I think it's nice to have this BO in store for a BoX.
Getting your gate and cyber out earlier could have some use but probably not for this build and certainly not the way naniwa performs it (at least what i saw from his MLG games and earlier). He gets his gates unneccesary early, letting them finish way before WG finishes, and then he gets his first stalker quite late and actually chrono's it! A normal 13 gate build which instead gets the stalker before gate #2 and #3 is strictly better as it has the stalker earlier AND has WG at the same time by not wasting a chrono on the stalker!
I'll check his game vs strelok on DH but what he did earlier was simply inefficient. The 20 probe version overall is just inefficient though, there is 0 reason to not get up to 22 probes first for example in this patch.
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I'm having real trouble with the Terran 2 marauder 3 marine scv all in with bunkers with this build, even when I see it comming. Maybe I should throw down 3 gates and do a 3 gate expand.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
This just seems like a slightly altered build as what I know as the "Korean 1 gas expo", the difference of the version I play however is that I do have 4 Stalkers prior to warpgate means once WG researched I got 6-7 goons rdy to attack. [20 probe cut > first stalker > chrono stalker + core > 2 more gates -> stalker2] If T went for any greedy mech fe he just dies right away, if he has a bunker and bio you gotta retreat tho obviously.
On a side note: You DO want the Terran to see your expansion as he might not put enough defence up in time if he does so.
Edit: Stevez - use what I described and chrono the first three stalkers. obviously warpgate will be later, but you can have up to 4 stalkers on time that push arrives, take 3 probes with you and that push is super duper raped.
In general, adding 2-3 probes in the fray helps a TON against those small pushes.
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On June 21 2011 02:55 Alejandrisha wrote:True. Anyway, I apologize; enough derailing. Will edit this post with actual content in a minute! + Show Spoiler +2 Rax pressure MM w/ SCV's gives this build a slight problem (rauders marines, doesn't have to be exactly 12/16) as you have to cut a lot of probes and bring them to save your squishy stalkers. If you get hit by one slow nade, it gets pretty rough lol.
I still love this build against any marine nogas FE openers as most of the time, they don't expect the super aggressive style and get killed by it thinking that ima just make probes. You force mineral repair, force him to pull off SCVs (a lot of lost mining time), and you get a better economy vs the marine nogas FE openers.
So how do you deal with the early pressure? Just micro your probes to kill the marines and focus fire the rauders? It is hard when there's SCVs though. Against reactor-tech lab, I actually have not been having as much trouble with the recent change to the build (namely, stalker before additional gates because you have 5 once WG finishes, a little before 6 minutes). The key here is not getting your first stalker shot in the face by a marauder. This can be helped two ways. With your initial probe, you should be able to figure out if he is OBVIOUSLY going bio or OBVIOUSLY not. I say 'obvious' as in he is not doing anything super sneaky, ie. hiding the 2nd rax and everything that comes out of it, or going 3 racks whilst putting a bunker at the bottom of his ramp (maker style for those who know); note that this can't be accomplished on the first probe scout. Keep it around his natural and poke up or around the ramp to see if you get hit by a marauder shell. If you make an obvious read on tech lab racks, it's best to sit on your initial stalker and stay there until you have your 2nd one out and WG is almost completed. Have your scouting probe, off to the side, after starting the pylon check for the expansion and even the tower to check for rallied units to your base. The nice thing about being pressured this way is that once you get your 5 stalkers, once you pick off the marauders, you can micro against the marines quite easily and he will lose EVERY SINGLE UNIT that he send across the map. You can usually win just by chasing him back to his base and killing the bunker right before or as it is finishing Make use of that half-map proxy pylon! One thing I have realized with the WG nerf in conjunction with the change in build is that you are suddenly open to rallied 2 naked rax marine + bunker + scv pressure. I thought that this build would do well against this type of all-inish play but you just don't get the stalker fast enough unless you get it blindly. You could scout 2 rax, no gas with your first probe but this would entail scouting the entire base (which you should be able to do since the first marine won't begin until he is at 15 food and in order for the rush to do any real damage his 2nd rax would have to be on 14 food) as well as proxy locations. The locations, on 4 player maps, would be pretty generic ones in the middle of the map because there is no way he can scout you in time to get a really close one. On two player maps it will be a bit trickier, however. When I faced this, I wasn't able to get the first stalker out in time to deny the bunker and had to sac the nexus. I wasn't extremely far behind but definitely at a strong disadvantage. So, I recommend scouting the entire base more carefully if you scout no gas (I used to just assume 1 rax gasless fe) and make sure he is not doing a 2rax rush with or w/o a proxy. If he is, cb the first stalker out immediately and consider cutting one of the gateways for a slimmer, faster stalker rush and push his marines back to his base.
Thank you for the awesome reply.
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On June 21 2011 17:46 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 00:46 Alejandrisha wrote:
Also I have an update on the nAni variant.
The build is like this:
9 Pylon
11 Gate
14 Gas
16 Pylon
17 Core
20 wg/nex
20 2 gates
20 stalker, resume probe production.
He gets the WG out slightly faster than our new variant but I have a huge problem with this build.
He is forcing the build to work the same way it did pre-patch after the patch. I think that, in all of your builds, you should try to take whatever a patch throws at you as an oppurtunity to squeeze out something extra instead of trying to make sacrifices to get the same thing you used to be able to get.
He doesn't get his stalker before his gateways which leaves him vulnerable to reapers and every other kind of pre-warpgate shenanigan. It is essentially doing the same build but sacrificing economy and safety to get pre-wg nerf WG timing. I've also looked into nAni's variation of the build in the last couple of days and have to agree with you that it seems like he takes unnecessary risks early on, especially against the very standard reaper. Nevertheless, obviously the 11 gate enables him to get core and warpgate tech a bit earlier, which I think is crucial when you want to play a hard pressure build, maybe by even going 5 gate afterwards. In his MLG-game on Testbug vs drewbie the warp-ins came literally just in time, he warped into the face of drewbies small force trying to take out the forward pylon. In his DH-game on Meta vs Strelok it also seemed to me as if Strelok was surprised by the very early timing of his 3 gate push after being quite annoying with reaper/bunker himself. Personally, I've come to the conclusion, that the build isn't plain "bad" as Markwerf has put it, but has a cheesy element in it - meaning, the nAni-variation takes pretty big risks in order to gain an advantage...which is basicly the definition of a cheese. In my opinion, the way nAni plays it out is neither inferior nor superior to the standard way of executing this build - it's simply something else. A variation of the build that risks losing the game early on but has a chance of demolishing your opponent if he doesn't scout/react properly. I think it's nice to have this BO in store for a BoX.
Yes the game on metal really showed a lot about this build. That game made me think it was quite gimmicky. He essentially went into that game knowing that he would lose probes no matter what against a reaper expand but he would be able to get a ~20 second faster WG. This might be something, as you said, to throw in during a BoX after you have already shown your safer 20 nex, as it could very easily throw off your opponent's timing because it should look the same to him besides the lack of the initial stalker.
However, I don't really see myself ever using this version because I haaaaaaate reapers in my base
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On June 21 2011 22:14 iChau wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 21 2011 02:55 Alejandrisha wrote:True. Anyway, I apologize; enough derailing. Will edit this post with actual content in a minute! + Show Spoiler +2 Rax pressure MM w/ SCV's gives this build a slight problem (rauders marines, doesn't have to be exactly 12/16) as you have to cut a lot of probes and bring them to save your squishy stalkers. If you get hit by one slow nade, it gets pretty rough lol.
I still love this build against any marine nogas FE openers as most of the time, they don't expect the super aggressive style and get killed by it thinking that ima just make probes. You force mineral repair, force him to pull off SCVs (a lot of lost mining time), and you get a better economy vs the marine nogas FE openers.
So how do you deal with the early pressure? Just micro your probes to kill the marines and focus fire the rauders? It is hard when there's SCVs though. Against reactor-tech lab, I actually have not been having as much trouble with the recent change to the build (namely, stalker before additional gates because you have 5 once WG finishes, a little before 6 minutes). The key here is not getting your first stalker shot in the face by a marauder. This can be helped two ways. With your initial probe, you should be able to figure out if he is OBVIOUSLY going bio or OBVIOUSLY not. I say 'obvious' as in he is not doing anything super sneaky, ie. hiding the 2nd rax and everything that comes out of it, or going 3 racks whilst putting a bunker at the bottom of his ramp (maker style for those who know); note that this can't be accomplished on the first probe scout. Keep it around his natural and poke up or around the ramp to see if you get hit by a marauder shell. If you make an obvious read on tech lab racks, it's best to sit on your initial stalker and stay there until you have your 2nd one out and WG is almost completed. Have your scouting probe, off to the side, after starting the pylon check for the expansion and even the tower to check for rallied units to your base. The nice thing about being pressured this way is that once you get your 5 stalkers, once you pick off the marauders, you can micro against the marines quite easily and he will lose EVERY SINGLE UNIT that he send across the map. You can usually win just by chasing him back to his base and killing the bunker right before or as it is finishing Make use of that half-map proxy pylon! One thing I have realized with the WG nerf in conjunction with the change in build is that you are suddenly open to rallied 2 naked rax marine + bunker + scv pressure. I thought that this build would do well against this type of all-inish play but you just don't get the stalker fast enough unless you get it blindly. You could scout 2 rax, no gas with your first probe but this would entail scouting the entire base (which you should be able to do since the first marine won't begin until he is at 15 food and in order for the rush to do any real damage his 2nd rax would have to be on 14 food) as well as proxy locations. The locations, on 4 player maps, would be pretty generic ones in the middle of the map because there is no way he can scout you in time to get a really close one. On two player maps it will be a bit trickier, however. When I faced this, I wasn't able to get the first stalker out in time to deny the bunker and had to sac the nexus. I wasn't extremely far behind but definitely at a strong disadvantage. So, I recommend scouting the entire base more carefully if you scout no gas (I used to just assume 1 rax gasless fe) and make sure he is not doing a 2rax rush with or w/o a proxy. If he is, cb the first stalker out immediately and consider cutting one of the gateways for a slimmer, faster stalker rush and push his marines back to his base. Thank you for the awesome reply.
Oh nevermind me. It is the people who post actual good questions and raise good points that keep these threads alive
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I have another replay of this build. I have more, but I can't be bothered delving through to find them.
This is the build against a Terran gasless 1rax expand.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-216809.jpg)
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I usually make 2 stalkes then warp 3 for 5 stalkers.
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Just tried this build on ladder (diamond) for the first time. First game, he did a reaper expand, my stalker popped right in time to kill the reaper with zero damage, after which I went 6 gate and killed him :D Second game, he was doing 2-rax expand, and as soon as he spotted my build he pulled something like 6+ SCVs and started applying pressure with marine-marauder. While expanding. Needless to say, after I held that off (piece of cake thanks to the fast warp gate!) I went 6 gate and killed him :D
In non-Tal'Darim maps where I don't get close spawns I think I will do this a lot now, seems REALLY good.
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Hey guys! I went ahead and made a tutorial video for this on Justin.tv. I've been using it a lot and it is literally one of the strongest hard counters to low Diamond Terran play where FEs are uncommon and micro is OK at best, as well as good practice for macro games. The quality is a bit low but I'm working on that. I made some nub-friendly adjustments for after the patch (I save 100 gas for a safety stalker)
http://www.justin.tv/deezl/b/289011330
Check it out!
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I dont get it guys :-(
How can I denie scout, which shouldnt see my expo, if I go stalker after expo ? any platinum guy gotta scout it and than easily push me.
What did I miss O_o ?
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On June 28 2011 19:52 Try_Two_Beat_Me wrote:
I dont get it guys :-(
How can I denie scout, which shouldnt see my expo, if I go stalker after expo ? any platinum guy gotta scout it and than easily push me.
What did I miss O_o ?
I had some problems with this too especially as some terrans would block the expansion which would really screw this build over. Getting expo blocked means you did already cut probes and not make a stalker but don't get up the early expansion.
I know get the expansion after making stalker and 3rd pylon first. The expansion gets up about 50 seconds later but because i'm not cutting probes i'm actually having a better economy. There is also a good chance I get to kill the scv before it get's to see the expansion. Chronoboost warpgate 4 times and get stalker-sentry-stalker during that will mean i can have 4 stalker 1 sentry with energy for guardian shield exactly when the huk variation has 5 stalkers. It's worse for pressure but safer on defense and transitions better because i'm already having a sentry to build up energy for those ~8-9 minute MM pushes.
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Sup all haven't checked this thread in a while!
I have a new replay for you all. It's against 2rax reactor-tech lab with scv pull, which I didn't think this should be able to block cost effectively. It's true he didn't pull a significant amount, but I think the build holds very well. The key is you can't engage until you have enough. Once you commit and start taking damage, you're going to lose any zealots you make. So you want to hit at a time where you will 1. save your nexus, and 2. have enough units to clean it up completely. When you're opponent opens this way there is no way he can hold you off once you clean it up, so just go kill him
http://replayfu.com/download/wQTHqt
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hey, i tried this build in my last few (+-8) games, but I totaly suck agains terran. like i wrote above - i cant denie scouting scv, cuz I dont have stalker :-/.
Is so huge leak to this build to make expo little later lets say 22 food but with stalker to denie scout and after it add more 2 gates ?
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Very hard build to master right off the bat. But either way great thread on the build when I get it down pvt is gonna be super good!
Thank you again :D
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On June 30 2011 05:00 Alejandrisha wrote:Sup all haven't checked this thread in a while! I have a new replay for you all. It's against 2rax reactor-tech lab with scv pull, which I didn't think this should be able to block cost effectively. It's true he didn't pull a significant amount, but I think the build holds very well. The key is you can't engage until you have enough. Once you commit and start taking damage, you're going to lose any zealots you make. So you want to hit at a time where you will 1. save your nexus, and 2. have enough units to clean it up completely. When you're opponent opens this way there is no way he can hold you off once you clean it up, so just go kill him http://replayfu.com/download/wQTHqt
Yup, just want to emphazise the point you've made that you simply must NOT engage until you can crush through. This has taken me to the point where I sometimes hide stalkers in my mineral line to not get shot in the face. I found that you "should" be able to clear up with the 2nd round of warps - 5 stalkers doing some pew pew hit/run, then 3 zealots warp and 6-8 probes should be enough to win.
As you said, you should always be patient, because you don't want to just hold on, you want to demolish the push and immediately go for a counter, because this counter should then be able to deny their expo or even win the game outright.
On June 30 2011 16:14 Try_Two_Beat_Me wrote:
hey, i tried this build in my last few (+-8) games, but I totaly suck agains terran. like i wrote above - i cant denie scouting scv, cuz I dont have stalker :-/.
Is so huge leak to this build to make expo little later lets say 22 food but with stalker to denie scout and after it add more 2 gates ?
Dude it doesn't matter if they scout it, I mostly throw the expo down right in the face of the SCV.
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EPT
