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On July 01 2011 04:57 CecilSunkure wrote:
I've been using this a lot lately, except I'm using my own very greedy rendition. If you scout you're in the right position (no gas and or scout a CC) early game, you really only need some Stalkers to keep control of the middle, and the earlier Nexus lets you get so many probes so fast.
I really like the overall concept of cutting the Zealot, since lately I've been having a hard time finding a use for the darn thing other than running up the ramp to scout the Terran. A lot of times you just don't need it.
If you scout the terran being that greedy then it's all the more reason to pressure with all those stalkers, but I suppose that's just a stylistic difference. If I scout the T going 1rax fe I just 4gate blink allin or warp prism allin, though, but I don't think that contributes to making me a better player :p
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On July 01 2011 04:57 CecilSunkure wrote:
I've been using this a lot lately, except I'm using my own very greedy rendition. If you scout you're in the right position (no gas and or scout a CC) early game, you really only need some Stalkers to keep control of the middle, and the earlier Nexus lets you get so many probes so fast.
I really like the overall concept of cutting the Zealot, since lately I've been having a hard time finding a use for the darn thing other than running up the ramp to scout the Terran. A lot of times you just don't need it.
Yeah I typically only field the zealot if we're close spawns and I'm donig super safe 1g robo orr something along those lines. When you say your greedy rendition do you mean you expo at like 21 or 22?
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I have been using this build for a while and I love it. It is obviously better on certain maps where the natural has some form of a choke or ramp. If a determined terran player wants to go all in they can cause trouble in an open nat. Below is a link to a replay of me using this build and holding off a 4 gate all in. Normally I would not upload just another replay of this build that has been confirmed to work but I think this is a good example for newer players.
In the replay the all in is very strong and I eventually have to pull workers to meat shield. This feels like it will put you behind but as you can see I lose a ton of workers but I am still ahead and I go on to counter and win. Players learning this build should learn when to pull workers because I feel it is crucial to holding off pressure from determined terran players.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=218876
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re: T making an ebay at the nat
If the 3rd is in a defensible position, send your scouting probe back in time to lay down the nexus there in case your nat is blocked.
If the 3rd is not viable, just do a different build in reaction - by building+canceling a zealot (you can queue up a new one, cancel the original, and repeat as many times as you like to make your gateway look like it's always working even though you will build zero units) and timing your zealot to 'complete' a few seconds after you want to place the nexus, you allow yourself the option of actually completing the zealot in case he builds an ebay. At that point you are in the exact same position as you would be with any other zealot-first build, but with slightly more minerals and less gas.
I find that I have 400 minerals pretty much exactly when the cyber core finishes, and I've just completed my 20th probe. If you react to the ebay by letting the zealot complete and immediately building probe #21, you are at 250/60ish, so you can start either warpgate or a stalker right away and will soon have 50 gas again. If you do the build a little differently (probes in gas for more time) you can have 100 gas at this time, but obviously you will have a little less minerals so your nexus would be delayed a few seconds in case he didn't block it.
And again, for reasons of deception:
-always build + cancel zealots, it's completely free and gives you the option to complete the zealot
-build the assimilator at a normal time, and instead of mining gas -> pull probes, which is a dead giveaway, leave the assim unworked until right after you start your cyber core. That way he sees probes mining gas and the only way he can know is to click on the assimilator and see that you are ~50 gas less than 'normal'.
2 in gas at that point gives you ~60 gas when it completes, so 3 in gas would give you ~80. If you want 100 gas I'd recommend putting 2 into gas a bit earlier (don't know exact timing) rather than putting 3 in gas, as the 3rd probe is slightly inefficient.
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On July 01 2011 08:52 Keilah wrote:
re: T making an ebay at the nat
If the 3rd is in a defensible position, send your scouting probe back in time to lay down the nexus there in case your nat is blocked.
If the 3rd is not viable, just do a different build in reaction - by building+canceling a zealot (you can queue up a new one, cancel the original, and repeat as many times as you like to make your gateway look like it's always working even though you will build zero units) and timing your zealot to 'complete' a few seconds after you want to place the nexus, you allow yourself the option of actually completing the zealot in case he builds an ebay. At that point you are in the exact same position as you would be with any other zealot-first build, but with slightly more minerals and less gas.
I find that I have 400 minerals pretty much exactly when the cyber core finishes, and I've just completed my 20th probe. If you react to the ebay by letting the zealot complete and immediately building probe #21, you are at 250/60ish, so you can start either warpgate or a stalker right away and will soon have 50 gas again. If you do the build a little differently (probes in gas for more time) you can have 100 gas at this time, but obviously you will have a little less minerals so your nexus would be delayed a few seconds in case he didn't block it.
And again, for reasons of deception:
-always build + cancel zealots, it's completely free and gives you the option to complete the zealot
-build the assimilator at a normal time, and instead of mining gas -> pull probes, which is a dead giveaway, leave the assim unworked until right after you start your cyber core. That way he sees probes mining gas and the only way he can know is to click on the assimilator and see that you are ~50 gas less than 'normal'.
2 in gas at that point gives you ~60 gas when it completes, so 3 in gas would give you ~80. If you want 100 gas I'd recommend putting 2 into gas a bit earlier (don't know exact timing) rather than putting 3 in gas, as the 3rd probe is slightly inefficient.
That is actually frickin genius
Where did they find you??? thanks!! adding to op
Originally I thought queueing the zealot was extraneous and just another thing to monitor but that is a wonderful application for it
edit: updated op!
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On July 01 2011 08:35 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 04:57 CecilSunkure wrote:
I've been using this a lot lately, except I'm using my own very greedy rendition. If you scout you're in the right position (no gas and or scout a CC) early game, you really only need some Stalkers to keep control of the middle, and the earlier Nexus lets you get so many probes so fast.
I really like the overall concept of cutting the Zealot, since lately I've been having a hard time finding a use for the darn thing other than running up the ramp to scout the Terran. A lot of times you just don't need it. Yeah I typically only field the zealot if we're close spawns and I'm donig super safe 1g robo orr something along those lines. When you say your greedy rendition do you mean you expo at like 21 or 22?
Expo at around 22 probes, chrono probes after nexus is laid, get Nexus before WG upgrade, and delay my additional gateways. Basically I'm 1upping the Terran's greedy opening by being more greedy, since I know he's not thinking about attacking basically no matter what I do. One guy actually saw me do this and kept his orbital in base and marine allind me with a lot of rax, I just put cannons at my natural and won.
Seems to me that you can hold most early aggression on any larger maps (no lame small ladder maps like slag pits) by getting warpgate up and pulling some probes if need be. The scariest thing I would imagine would be ~5 scvs and 2 rax bio bunker rush into bunker contain, but I haven't had anyone do this yet.
Also, that Zealot cancel idea is great. It makes you more versatile, you can go into standard 3 Gate expo or 1 Gate expo if you need to for some reason.
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No worries. By the way, i checked my own replay and:
-20th probe still building @ nexus timing, so zero probe cuts required if you change build
-to get 100 gas on time (I think this is a good idea, it BARELY delays your nexus but allows you to transition much more smoothly between builds and makes it very hard for terran to guess your plan), put 2 in gas ASAP and add a third when your core is about 50% complete. This assumes you build the assim @75 minerals after building probe #15.
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Been using this a lot. What was surprising to me is that its able to hold off 7rax marine all-ins fairly well. (or my opponents sucked? )
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I just played this game on Tal'Darim vs a 2rax marauder pressure build. I felt like I had to pull probes to keep my expansion alive, which I eventually did (barely), but that left me quite significantly behind in worker count for the rest of the game. It seemed like the low gas you have shortly after expanding makes it hard to get enough sentries to deal properly with marauder heavy compositions.
Replay: http://replayfu.com/r/bVCXch
Looking through it there's a couple fairly embarassing supply blocks, and my probe production isn't perfect, but a lot of that is to do with me thinking at the time I was ahead by a bit because of how late his expansion was. The last engagement, in retrospect, is pretty stupid since I dont have ups yet and he does, but I feel like I lost the game when I had to pull my probes. Comments/criticism?
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Thanks for answer of Alejandrisha about my problem,
and thanks for the build too, its really awesome and my PvT feels new and experienced more than ever  Btw, about the "fake zealot" i can feedback its very effective. I use that "fake" from the first try of this build, because i use too in PvP when i want to skip the zealot and i easily take the idea from PvP to this build, and yes, its very effective and clever.
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On July 01 2011 08:55 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 08:52 Keilah wrote:
re: T making an ebay at the nat
If the 3rd is in a defensible position, send your scouting probe back in time to lay down the nexus there in case your nat is blocked.
If the 3rd is not viable, just do a different build in reaction - by building+canceling a zealot (you can queue up a new one, cancel the original, and repeat as many times as you like to make your gateway look like it's always working even though you will build zero units) and timing your zealot to 'complete' a few seconds after you want to place the nexus, you allow yourself the option of actually completing the zealot in case he builds an ebay. At that point you are in the exact same position as you would be with any other zealot-first build, but with slightly more minerals and less gas.
I find that I have 400 minerals pretty much exactly when the cyber core finishes, and I've just completed my 20th probe. If you react to the ebay by letting the zealot complete and immediately building probe #21, you are at 250/60ish, so you can start either warpgate or a stalker right away and will soon have 50 gas again. If you do the build a little differently (probes in gas for more time) you can have 100 gas at this time, but obviously you will have a little less minerals so your nexus would be delayed a few seconds in case he didn't block it.
And again, for reasons of deception:
-always build + cancel zealots, it's completely free and gives you the option to complete the zealot
-build the assimilator at a normal time, and instead of mining gas -> pull probes, which is a dead giveaway, leave the assim unworked until right after you start your cyber core. That way he sees probes mining gas and the only way he can know is to click on the assimilator and see that you are ~50 gas less than 'normal'.
2 in gas at that point gives you ~60 gas when it completes, so 3 in gas would give you ~80. If you want 100 gas I'd recommend putting 2 into gas a bit earlier (don't know exact timing) rather than putting 3 in gas, as the 3rd probe is slightly inefficient. That is actually frickin genius Where did they find you??? thanks!! adding to op Originally I thought queueing the zealot was extraneous and just another thing to monitor but that is a wonderful application for it edit: updated op!
lol, i uttered this idea 8 pages ago already...
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Keliah just blew my fucking mind and I feel like a bronzie: canceling units gives a full refund, jeeeeeeeeeeeeesus christ!
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Lol guys, this has been suggested weeks ago 
One small thing I like to do is simply quee up a zealot anyways while still having the intention of doing this build. If you scout something fishy at the latest then, for example a low ground rax at the last spot you scout, you can let the zealot finish then, otherwise you simply cancel it just before you make the nexus. Zero harm in doing so and it can make your FE be a little less expected and safe you against the occasional cheese.
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I tried this today and although I'm only silver league, I'm finding PvT to be significantly easier now. I still have a question for you guys:
After I scout with my initial probe, I plant it at a Xelnaga tower and a few minutes after I get my expo up and running, I see the terran opponent has a large group of marine and maurader forces charging near my base. What's the best response to this? I usually have 2 or 3 games up by then but there is still no way I can hold off his army completely. What should my army composition be? More zealots? More stalkers? More sentries? Do I sac my my expo? Thanks.
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delay him if possible, try to warp in behind him and cut off/kill reinforcements. Wait for 2-3 rounds of warpins, pull a few probes to make stutter-stepping harder for him, and wipe him out. Your nexus will be low HP but will survive.
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On July 02 2011 03:51 Automata wrote:
I tried this today and although I'm only silver league, I'm finding PvT to be significantly easier now. I still have a question for you guys:
After I scout with my initial probe, I plant it at a Xelnaga tower and a few minutes after I get my expo up and running, I see the terran opponent has a large group of marine and maurader forces charging near my base. What's the best response to this? I usually have 2 or 3 games up by then but there is still no way I can hold off his army completely. What should my army composition be? More zealots? More stalkers? More sentries? Do I sac my my expo? Thanks.
A few minutes after the expo implies a stim timing push, to stop those you need sentries to form a cage, how many you make for that depends on your micro and the map.
Basically to stop pressure you want to have zealot/stalker in about a 1:2 ratio early game, zealots soak damage while the stalkers focus and stop you from dying by kiting.
Late earlygame / midgame when stim and possibly shields are complete you want to have enough sentries to trap a significant part of their army when they try to attack.
Knowing when to switch from purely zealot/stalker to sentry/zeal/stalker is a bit of a guess but usually you can just warp in a round of sentries at some point and switch over to that.
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On July 02 2011 08:09 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 03:51 Automata wrote:
I tried this today and although I'm only silver league, I'm finding PvT to be significantly easier now. I still have a question for you guys:
After I scout with my initial probe, I plant it at a Xelnaga tower and a few minutes after I get my expo up and running, I see the terran opponent has a large group of marine and maurader forces charging near my base. What's the best response to this? I usually have 2 or 3 games up by then but there is still no way I can hold off his army completely. What should my army composition be? More zealots? More stalkers? More sentries? Do I sac my my expo? Thanks. A few minutes after the expo implies a stim timing push, to stop those you need sentries to form a cage, how many you make for that depends on your micro and the map. Basically to stop pressure you want to have zealot/stalker in about a 1:2 ratio early game, zealots soak damage while the stalkers focus and stop you from dying by kiting. Late earlygame / midgame when stim and possibly shields are complete you want to have enough sentries to trap a significant part of their army when they try to attack. Knowing when to switch from purely zealot/stalker to sentry/zeal/stalker is a bit of a guess but usually you can just warp in a round of sentries at some point and switch over to that.
My rule of thumb is 3 Zealots. All other minerals should be spent on stalkers, assimilators, pylons, gateways and structures (forge/robo/twilight council). When the engagement is coming warp in 3 more zealots. The reason for this is that Zealots don't DPS the Terran back unless you get charge. 3 is enough to tank a stim timing long enough for you to warp a few extra sentries/zeals, and stalkers and sentries are the more effecient warp-in. Min 1 sentry for guardian shield.
Make sure you're poking a concussive-less Terran with your initial swat team to pick off units and delay medivacs.
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I've tried this build 5 times and failed every time. What the terran does is either polt timing push or some other 1 base all in.
It's retarded and im pissed.
i see you guys talking about how to end the game early but when the terran is on two bunkers in his base behind supply depots there is no way in hell, that im gonna go in there and kill him.
Here's the game im mad at what did i do wrong?
http://replayfu.com/r/KcBpkf
Thanks
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Anyone have a replay of someone defending a 3rax stim timing push (of 1 base obviously) with this opening?
Im having trouble with it
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EPT
