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On June 12 2011 19:51 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 15:13 Alejandrisha wrote:
I don't really understand where the zealot fits in. You're going to be making a stalker right after you start the nexus but I guess there is a little bit of time where you look like you are doing a standard build for the scv in your main and then you suddenly cancel it and throw down the nexus so I guess that is ok. But in a situation where I was being pressured while doing this build, I've never said to myself, damn if only I had a zealot right now. Well the advantage is little but it's more just a 'just in case' thing in case they do something strange. There are a few scenario's where this build just isn't that good and you want to do something more normal where you usually need that first zealot, for example: - proxy rax(es) / low ground rax. Against marine allin you obviously need as many units as possible. - 2 rax pressure build, reactor first tech lab second (see polt vs alicia GSL). Proceeding with this build against that variation on close air positions, which you scout last on metalopis/shattered temple, is just not smart. Íf they are any good they will be starting their bunker(s) before your warpin units arrive and there is no way to hold the expo then (at least without cutting and sacrificing alot of probes) putting you behind as you didn't get much gas either. A better response imo is to simple let zealot finish, add a 2nd gas asap and go stalkers and sentries before expanding. Also I found that having something building at the gateway lowers their chance of them blocking your natural, if they see nothing going on you basically reveal this build straight away. Another thing, why is this build cutting probes at 20? Makes much more sense to cut at 22, depending on what you scout you can even decide to not cut at all then (stalker at 23, pylon afterwards, all chrono on WG tech). The best execution of this build imo is naniwa vs gretorp at MLG where I believe he doesn't cut probes at all.
If he doesn't cut probes then it isn't remotely the same build.
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Nice build, I like it alej
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How does this build go against an aggressive 2rax expand?
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On June 13 2011 02:42 whersmyspacebar wrote:
How does this build go against an aggressive 2rax expand?
Pretty darn well, timings work out that you can hold pretty easily if is the tech lab version (might have to pull 2-3 probes). If you are talking about the marine version then it depends when you start kiting the marines.
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On June 13 2011 02:36 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 19:51 Markwerf wrote:On June 12 2011 15:13 Alejandrisha wrote:
I don't really understand where the zealot fits in. You're going to be making a stalker right after you start the nexus but I guess there is a little bit of time where you look like you are doing a standard build for the scv in your main and then you suddenly cancel it and throw down the nexus so I guess that is ok. But in a situation where I was being pressured while doing this build, I've never said to myself, damn if only I had a zealot right now. Well the advantage is little but it's more just a 'just in case' thing in case they do something strange. There are a few scenario's where this build just isn't that good and you want to do something more normal where you usually need that first zealot, for example: - proxy rax(es) / low ground rax. Against marine allin you obviously need as many units as possible. - 2 rax pressure build, reactor first tech lab second (see polt vs alicia GSL). Proceeding with this build against that variation on close air positions, which you scout last on metalopis/shattered temple, is just not smart. Íf they are any good they will be starting their bunker(s) before your warpin units arrive and there is no way to hold the expo then (at least without cutting and sacrificing alot of probes) putting you behind as you didn't get much gas either. A better response imo is to simple let zealot finish, add a 2nd gas asap and go stalkers and sentries before expanding. Also I found that having something building at the gateway lowers their chance of them blocking your natural, if they see nothing going on you basically reveal this build straight away. Another thing, why is this build cutting probes at 20? Makes much more sense to cut at 22, depending on what you scout you can even decide to not cut at all then (stalker at 23, pylon afterwards, all chrono on WG tech). The best execution of this build imo is naniwa vs gretorp at MLG where I believe he doesn't cut probes at all. If he doesn't cut probes then it isn't remotely the same build.
nah doesn't really matter that much. You can easily keep producing probes and get the nexus a few secs later. Then you can get the 3rd pylon before gateway #2 and #3 and everything else is about the same, you still warp in 3 stalkers when the warpgates finish which will be 10 secs later. It is less safe but the economy is much better, a variation I vastly prefer on the bigger maps. Cutting probes is just never good unless it is really neccesary to be safe, afterall the earlier you get a probe the earlier it pays itself back.
Probecut or no probe cut, the principal remains the same. Get warpgate going asap then make a nexus before any unit at all. Doing it exactly the same everytime doesn't take advantage of the information you gather when scouting and isn't smart.
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Is this build viable vs other races as well?
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On June 13 2011 06:21 Cthun wrote:
Is this build viable vs other races as well?
nope, throwing down an expo that early in other matchups is suicide, let alone doing it without anyway to scare away the enemy scout.
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+ Show Spoiler +nah doesn't really matter that much. You can easily keep producing probes and get the nexus a few secs later. Then you can get the 3rd pylon before gateway #2 and #3 and everything else is about the same, you still warp in 3 stalkers when the warpgates finish which will be 10 secs later. It is less safe but the economy is much better, a variation I vastly prefer on the bigger maps. Cutting probes is just never good unless it is really neccesary to be safe, afterall the earlier you get a probe the earlier it pays itself back.
Probecut or no probe cut, the principal remains the same. Get warpgate going asap then make a nexus before any unit at all. Doing it exactly the same everytime doesn't take advantage of the information you gather when scouting and isn't smart.
If you get such a quick 3rd pylon (before the gateways) your gates are going to be extremely late. If you were trying to hold aggression with bunkers in your natural there's no way you would have them up and ready for when your WG finishes with 4 cbs on it. It's more economical but you get your units up much later to defend or to apply pressure
edit: hell, I can't even get the 21st probe before putting the 2 gates down while getting my gates up on time, let alone getting more psi that I won't be using (nexus finishes pretty quickly afterward).
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Nice! I'll definitely try it out.
Taking later expansions almost feel more risky than fast ones in PvT from my experience.
Very neat.
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So how do you stop marine/banshee/raven with this? I get to his ramp last on typhon(i scouted at pylon specifically because typhon is a big map and I want to get in for information), i see a bunch of marines at the top (like 4 or 5). So I do the standard build, and while I am warping guys in to be aggressive a hellion comes in my base but I kill it with no losses. So I aggress with my stalkers plus a wave of zealot. He has a lot of marines and a banshee with them. I kill marines in an even trade and run my stalkers back.
So, I have to get a robo, so I do. meanwhile I am making probes. Then he comes in for pressure with a bunch of marines and 3 banshees. So I have to keep making stalkers and I don't get as many probes. Then he has a raven he's added in and 3 tanks. He moves in and I lose, even though I nonstop produced units (and had to cut probes to do so).
Honestly marine/raven/banshee/whatever bullshit seems just so ridiculously unfair sometimes. (oh wait, ALL THE TIME).
I could upload the replay but really what happened is exactly what I said.
I actually don't think I EVER stop these openings. I don't see how to delay them from their base with stalkers when 3 banshees could fly into my main or nat at any moment.
I know you aren't supposed to overcommit to stalkers but every time I try to make fewer stalkers they target them down with the banshees and marauders or tanks and then the banshees clean up everything else...
I actually just plain don't know how to stop this build at all, period. The only times I ever win vs it I open phoenix because I suspect they are teching (or they show hellion). I am asking because I know alej checks this thread a lot.
The funny thing is I only stop this build when I open phoenix, but if terran just doesn't make a banshee and goes medivac/marine/thor allin I don't know if you can possibly win if you've opened with a phoenix.
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On June 17 2011 11:33 travis wrote:
So how do you stop marine/banshee/raven with this?
I think it is hard to follow this build up against a 1 basing tech terran. Are there replays of HuK doing this?
If T goes 2 thors + marine/scv all-in (while protoss is in the dark & expecting banshee/raven until observer out) seems like only chance is if protoss was teching dt's (as well as robo for observer, which never happens) and can let the expansion go as dt tech finishes. Either that or 5x cannons as you see T moving out?? It just ends up being something like 4 stalkers + 4 zealots + 1 or 2 immortal + 1 colossus vs 2 thor's with 250mm and 20 marines and 20 repair scvs... no chance for protoss if the Terran is competent with the 250mm's and keeps scvs alive
Replay of me getting completely rolled by that (I was expecting banshee/raven based on non existent scouting... for all I knew he was 2 basing, but I knew I'd have a chance vs 2basing terran so didn't bother to scout it): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/5985
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What are the strengths and weaknesses of Huk's build and Naniwa's? Nani opens 11 gate, 14 gas and only puts 2 workers in gas to get his 50.
Personally I'm using Nani's just because I think he's a better player than Huk, but I don't really know why Nani altered it.
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Maybe just shouldn't do this build if I can't get in the terran base with my scouting probe.
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On June 17 2011 12:10 travis wrote:
Maybe just shouldn't do this build if I can't get in the terran base with my scouting probe.
4k.Warden (top 20 NA GM) posted his response to huk 20 probe 4gate (or something very close to it) in "Possibility #2", after opening 1:1:1:
Possibility #2 The scv or the first hellion scouts no second gas and 1 gate cybercore into fast expansion: The protoss player is being very greedy here and deserves to be punished. Upon scouting this, immediately build an armory. We are going to go for a thor all-in. Continue to produce marines out of reactored barrack and as soon as first thor is out, push with the thor, all the marines you have and about ~12 scvs with auto-repair. With decent micro (stutter step marine micro, surround the scvs on the thor and focus fire on immortals first), this is a free win for the terran player!
The OP of this thread says HuK cuts probes and goes zealots against 1 basing terran- I practiced this and couldn't make it work against thor's, though could barely hold against a worse-than-me terran playing going banshee/PDD/marine. It required building citadel and all chrono to leg speed when the 4 stalkers didn't see an expo after first poke.
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On June 17 2011 22:03 texmix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:10 travis wrote:
Maybe just shouldn't do this build if I can't get in the terran base with my scouting probe. 4k.Warden (top 20 NA GM) posted his response to huk 20 probe 4gate (or something very close to it) in "Possibility #2", after opening 1:1:1: Possibility #2 The scv or the first hellion scouts no second gas and 1 gate cybercore into fast expansion: The protoss player is being very greedy here and deserves to be punished. Upon scouting this, immediately build an armory. We are going to go for a thor all-in. Continue to produce marines out of reactored barrack and as soon as first thor is out, push with the thor, all the marines you have and about ~12 scvs with auto-repair. With decent micro (stutter step marine micro, surround the scvs on the thor and focus fire on immortals first), this is a free win for the terran player! The OP of this thread says HuK cuts probes and goes zealots against 1 basing terran- I practiced this and couldn't make it work against thor's, though could barely hold against a worse-than-me terran playing going banshee/PDD/marine. It required building citadel and all chrono to leg speed when the 4 stalkers didn't see an expo after first poke.
I played 2 games vs a guy who did that and when that all in comes you should have 4 or 5 gateways (still not sure which is better) and a robo. With aggressive stalker usage (which you should be always doing), you should spot it immediately giving you enough time to get an immortal out, then just camp at the top of your ramp (sack the expansion), and make only stalkers. Get the superior concave, and crush your opponent! Freewin.
Just remember to make enough pylons cuz you'll lose supply when your nat goes down. 
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I'm at work I will not post I'm at work I will not post I'm at work I will not post I'm at work I will not post
Ok I'm posting.
Yes, it sucks to have to build such an early robo when you are using an opener that thrives on it's ability to be aggressive and mobile in the early game. If your opponent is not expanding, make your 5 stalkers and at most one zealot. Use this zealot just to poke up the ramp. If you get up there and it's a bunker with marines in it and no cc in site, cut units for the time being. I like to get the robo down immediately and get a 2nd gas. It's a bit of a tough call here. Against 1 base builds, you're going to want 4-5gates and a robo; against the 2 base variety, you're going to want to stay on 3 gates for a longer time while you tech.
Your obs won't get there in time to make the definitive call. You will need 2 stalkers on defense per banshee on the map to defend adequately. If he is doing a 1 base, he probably won't send more than 1 to harass you so 2 will be sufficient. Keep total stalkers -(banshees you've seen/suspect)x2 outside of his front to check for the expo or eventually the push. 1;1;1 builds that become all ins will 99% of the time not have stim nor marauders with shells so you will be able to kite marine tank banshee. It gets a little bit tougher with banshees; since they are the fastest of that composition, you will have to kite farther in between shots. On a map with very short rush distances, this part of the game sucks. You won't get much free damage off.
When a 1 base marine tank banshee gets to you, you should have been powering off of 5 gates and 1 robo immortal for a decent amount of time. You will have 1 immortal already out and should have a 2nd on the way. DO NOT go overboard with stalkers. Having a good number of zealots and 2-3 sentries with 5-7 stalkers is all you should need. Make sure your guardian shield is always up during engagements as the majority of his punch comes from reactored marines. Your zealots do a fantastic job of tanking them in conjunction with GS. I've seen HuK get a +1 armor for this timing but I am not yet confident enough to try to squeeze it in against a 1 base all in.
Sorry zatic 
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Problem with this build for me is, the 2rax expand, reactor -> techlab push with like 5marines 1marauder and couple of scv's. With the 2nd marauder on the way, most of the times I have to give up my expansion, and I feel the 2rax is a hard counter to this opening
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On June 18 2011 00:31 whersmyspacebar wrote:
Problem with this build for me is, the 2rax expand, reactor -> techlab push with like 5marines 1marauder and couple of scv's. With the 2nd marauder on the way, most of the times I have to give up my expansion, and I feel the 2rax is a hard counter to this opening
Not at all, I've held this before with minimal losses. The trick is to see it coming (constant scouting). When it hits you should fall back, and grab 3-4 probes off your nat and swing them around to block the stutter step retreat of the marauders, then throw your stalkers into the fray. You'll be able to reenforce much more rapidly than he will and you'll eventually pull way ahead. Don't forget to keep making probes
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Also I have an update on the nAni variant.
The build is like this:
9 Pylon
11 Gate
14 Gas
16 Pylon
17 Core
20 wg/nex
20 2 gates
20 stalker, resume probe production.
He gets the WG out slightly faster than our new variant but I have a huge problem with this build.
He is forcing the build to work the same way it did pre-patch after the patch. I think that, in all of your builds, you should try to take whatever a patch throws at you as an oppurtunity to squeeze out something extra instead of trying to make sacrifices to get the same thing you used to be able to get.
He doesn't get his stalker before his gateways which leaves him vulnerable to reapers and every other kind of pre-warpgate shenanigan. It is essentially doing the same build but sacrificing economy and safety to get pre-wg nerf WG timing.
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The marine/tank/banshee all-in can be tough to beat but what alejandrisha said is basically the idea to beat it. Something that helps though is to do the build a little more greedy against this play as basically you have free reign till he pushes out.
If you scout him last and move up the ramp and see 3 marines you can do a more greedy variation of this build by not cutting probes as much and going for the 3rd pylon quicker. It is slightly worse for stopping pressure but it gets a much better economy. On a map like typhon peaks for example the distance is long enough to be safe with a greedier version against anything except a 2 rax opener imo. Seeing 2 or 3 rines early on means they didn't get an addon so you are safe to play a bit greedier.
Trying to delay the tank/banshee/marine push is something lots of players advocate but it's simply not possible imo. Tanks and banshee's both outrange (or equal) the range of the stalker so they can freely move up, it is good to move out just before they siege up though so you can avoid the first few shots. Try to have a very zealot heavy composition with a few stalkers and immortals at first, then reinforce with ONLY stalkers. This way your ground army can first take out the tanks and rines at which point your reinforcement stalkers can easily clean up the banshee's.
http://drop.sc/15256
here's a game showing a slightly greedier version against a raven/tank/marine allin. Mass zealots into reinforcing with mass stalkers does the trick really.
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EPT
