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On June 12 2011 05:23 -_- wrote:
I really don't like this build. If a terran really commits and brings a bunch of scvs to build 3+ bunkers I don't think you can stop him.
I think the best FE build are ones where you get 1 stalker out asap with chrono first. That way terran can't scout the FE and all in.
Have you read the thread? You're not counting on the terran not finding your expansion. If you need a stalker to prevent the scv from seeing the nexus you're doing something completely different.
There is a very small window when the terran can alter his build to actually kill this and this comes from him scouting you first and knowing the appropriate adjustment and that is much earlier than what your stalker can deny.
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On June 12 2011 05:28 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 05:23 -_- wrote:
I really don't like this build. If a terran really commits and brings a bunch of scvs to build 3+ bunkers I don't think you can stop him.
I think the best FE build are ones where you get 1 stalker out asap with chrono first. That way terran can't scout the FE and all in. Have you read the thread? You're not counting on the terran not finding your expansion. If you need a stalker to prevent the scv from seeing the nexus you're doing something completely different. There is a very small window when the terran can alter his build to actually kill this and this comes from him scouting you first and knowing the appropriate adjustment and that is much earlier than what your stalker can deny.
I have read the OP, but I've only done this build about 20 times.
I know this build isn't focused on T not seeing your expo. That's why I haven't been able to make it work for me.
This build shows T that P is expoing very quickly. T doesn't even have to wait for the expo to go down. Even if T's build is only to do a 2 or 3 marine 1 marauder poke, if he pulls 4 scvs and starts bunkers P may end up crippled.
That's why I was saying I prefer a different build. That is, a build where you get a stalker chronod out before giving T ANY clues as to what you're doing.
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On June 12 2011 05:36 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 05:28 Alejandrisha wrote:On June 12 2011 05:23 -_- wrote:
I really don't like this build. If a terran really commits and brings a bunch of scvs to build 3+ bunkers I don't think you can stop him.
I think the best FE build are ones where you get 1 stalker out asap with chrono first. That way terran can't scout the FE and all in. Have you read the thread? You're not counting on the terran not finding your expansion. If you need a stalker to prevent the scv from seeing the nexus you're doing something completely different. There is a very small window when the terran can alter his build to actually kill this and this comes from him scouting you first and knowing the appropriate adjustment and that is much earlier than what your stalker can deny. I have read the OP, but I've only done this build about 20 times. I know this build isn't focused on T not seeing your expo. That's why I haven't been able to make it work for me. This build shows T that P is expoing very quickly. T doesn't even have to wait for the expo to go down. Even if T's build is only to do a 2 or 3 marine 1 marauder poke, if he pulls 4 scvs and starts bunkers P may end up crippled. That's why I was saying I prefer a different build. That is, a build where you get a stalker chronod out before giving T ANY clues as to what you're doing.
As long as you're not too close to your opponent, you can stop almost every sort of aggression. And if you CAN'T stop it, you should be ahead in eco so you just sack the expo and get colossus. That's how much terran has to commit if he wants to kill you when expanding like this.
Just micro well with stalkers and you'd be surprised how well you can do (vs marauder heavy comps you want zealots to tank of course).
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On June 12 2011 05:43 trNimitz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 05:36 -_- wrote:On June 12 2011 05:28 Alejandrisha wrote:On June 12 2011 05:23 -_- wrote:
I really don't like this build. If a terran really commits and brings a bunch of scvs to build 3+ bunkers I don't think you can stop him.
I think the best FE build are ones where you get 1 stalker out asap with chrono first. That way terran can't scout the FE and all in. Have you read the thread? You're not counting on the terran not finding your expansion. If you need a stalker to prevent the scv from seeing the nexus you're doing something completely different. There is a very small window when the terran can alter his build to actually kill this and this comes from him scouting you first and knowing the appropriate adjustment and that is much earlier than what your stalker can deny. I have read the OP, but I've only done this build about 20 times. I know this build isn't focused on T not seeing your expo. That's why I haven't been able to make it work for me. This build shows T that P is expoing very quickly. T doesn't even have to wait for the expo to go down. Even if T's build is only to do a 2 or 3 marine 1 marauder poke, if he pulls 4 scvs and starts bunkers P may end up crippled. That's why I was saying I prefer a different build. That is, a build where you get a stalker chronod out before giving T ANY clues as to what you're doing. As long as you're not too close to your opponent, you can stop almost every sort of aggression. And if you CAN'T stop it, you should be ahead in eco so you just sack the expo and get colossus. That's how much terran has to commit if he wants to kill you when expanding like this. Just micro well with stalkers and you'd be surprised how well you can do (vs marauder heavy comps you want zealots to tank of course).
I think poor micro might be the issue. But I think it's my inability to use a stalker and probes to hold off / delay aggression until my first WG wave comes in. Micro has never been my strong suit.
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On June 12 2011 05:48 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 05:43 trNimitz wrote:On June 12 2011 05:36 -_- wrote:On June 12 2011 05:28 Alejandrisha wrote:On June 12 2011 05:23 -_- wrote:
I really don't like this build. If a terran really commits and brings a bunch of scvs to build 3+ bunkers I don't think you can stop him.
I think the best FE build are ones where you get 1 stalker out asap with chrono first. That way terran can't scout the FE and all in. Have you read the thread? You're not counting on the terran not finding your expansion. If you need a stalker to prevent the scv from seeing the nexus you're doing something completely different. There is a very small window when the terran can alter his build to actually kill this and this comes from him scouting you first and knowing the appropriate adjustment and that is much earlier than what your stalker can deny. I have read the OP, but I've only done this build about 20 times. I know this build isn't focused on T not seeing your expo. That's why I haven't been able to make it work for me. This build shows T that P is expoing very quickly. T doesn't even have to wait for the expo to go down. Even if T's build is only to do a 2 or 3 marine 1 marauder poke, if he pulls 4 scvs and starts bunkers P may end up crippled. That's why I was saying I prefer a different build. That is, a build where you get a stalker chronod out before giving T ANY clues as to what you're doing. As long as you're not too close to your opponent, you can stop almost every sort of aggression. And if you CAN'T stop it, you should be ahead in eco so you just sack the expo and get colossus. That's how much terran has to commit if he wants to kill you when expanding like this. Just micro well with stalkers and you'd be surprised how well you can do (vs marauder heavy comps you want zealots to tank of course). I think poor micro might be the issue. But I think it's my inability to use a stalker and probes to hold off / delay aggression until my first WG wave comes in. Micro has never been my strong suit.
If he just has marines (and scvs) you can kite with stalkers indefinitely. Don't feel like you have to engage at your nexus until after you have warped in from your gates. You shouldn't have a pylon there, anyway, so you'll just be taking hits on the nexus which is fine. Just wait until you have what you need and go all at once. The worst situation is trying to fight with your first 1 or 2 stalkers and losing them needlessly and then trying to fight with your warped in units by themselves
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-_- is right you need to make a stalker right away before you put up 2 additional gates, which is what HuK does 100% of the time whenever he does this build now. However on maps where you have access to watch towers your scouting probe can simply sit there as see opponent moving out, so you really dont have to chrono out your first stalker although it really doesnt hurt you if you do chrono out your first stalker anyways just to get rid of their first SCV.
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On June 12 2011 05:04 Regina wrote:
dont like this build at all, doesnt get alot of units till 5:30 and pressuring with 4 stalkers against a bunker is LOL, there are much better openings around imho
You're funny. The only thing that is LOL is if he has marauders inside the bunkers. If it's marines, you make him waste A LOT of minerals repairing and making more bunkers. Also, you can kill him with the 2nd wave (3 zealots, 4 stalkers 3 zealots total).
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I've actually noticed more terrans just opting to block the nexus when they expect this opening. On bigger maps where pressure is no possibility for terran making a engineering bay or just blocking with the scv is one of the best things T can do against this imo.
Overall I love the build though, the ease of adjustments you can make to it make it very comfortable to use. If you scout them in close positions or notice anything particulary aggresive early you can still easy change into a different build. If you notice they won't be aggresive early you can just not skip probes.
One small thing I like to do is simply quee up a zealot anyways while still having the intention of doing this build. If you scout something fishy at the latest then, for example a low ground rax at the last spot you scout, you can let the zealot finish then, otherwise you simply cancel it just before you make the nexus. Zero harm in doing so and it can make your FE be a little less expected and safe you against the occasional cheese.
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On June 12 2011 08:44 Markwerf wrote:
One small thing I like to do is simply quee up a zealot anyways while still having the intention of doing this build. If you scout something fishy at the latest then, for example a low ground rax at the last spot you scout, you can let the zealot finish then, otherwise you simply cancel it just before you make the nexus. Zero harm in doing so and it can make your FE be a little less expected and safe you against the occasional cheese.
wow nice idea, me likes
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On June 12 2011 08:44 Markwerf wrote:
I've actually noticed more terrans just opting to block the nexus when they expect this opening. On bigger maps where pressure is no possibility for terran making a engineering bay or just blocking with the scv is one of the best things T can do against this imo.
Overall I love the build though, the ease of adjustments you can make to it make it very comfortable to use. If you scout them in close positions or notice anything particulary aggresive early you can still easy change into a different build. If you notice they won't be aggresive early you can just not skip probes.
One small thing I like to do is simply quee up a zealot anyways while still having the intention of doing this build. If you scout something fishy at the latest then, for example a low ground rax at the last spot you scout, you can let the zealot finish then, otherwise you simply cancel it just before you make the nexus. Zero harm in doing so and it can make your FE be a little less expected and safe you against the occasional cheese.
yep thats what i do in order for them to think its not a unitless expo. then i cancel it and restart it instantly so the gateway animation doesnt change and if i really need it i'll let it pop out.
if they block ur expo u could always take a base further away like say the third on metal... not too far from ur main and defendable and also if they dont scout it or think u didnt go through with ur plan u have a hidden expo
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interesting idea with the zealot build->cancel to disguise your opening and be a little safer from cheese. If you're going to cancel + build a new one, start the new one before you cancel so the animation is truly seamless. You do lose 25 minerals every time you cancel a zealot though.
retreat your scouting probe right after the first marine pops out and place it at your third so you can lay down a nexus there if he blocks your natural.
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On June 12 2011 07:56 peidongyang wrote:
-_- is right you need to make a stalker right away before you put up 2 additional gates, which is what HuK does 100% of the time whenever he does this build now. However on maps where you have access to watch towers your scouting probe can simply sit there as see opponent moving out, so you really dont have to chrono out your first stalker although it really doesnt hurt you if you do chrono out your first stalker anyways just to get rid of their first SCV.
i have been doing the build different. I chrono out stalker before I put up 2gates, but i make a couple extra probes and do 4gate instead of 3gate.
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On June 12 2011 10:16 Keilah wrote:
interesting idea with the zealot build->cancel to disguise your opening and be a little safer from cheese. If you're going to cancel + build a new one, start the new one before you cancel so the animation is truly seamless. You do lose 25 minerals every time you cancel a zealot though.
retreat your scouting probe right after the first marine pops out and place it at your third so you can lay down a nexus there if he blocks your natural.
No you get full minerals for canceling units/upgrades.
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On June 12 2011 10:24 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 07:56 peidongyang wrote:
-_- is right you need to make a stalker right away before you put up 2 additional gates, which is what HuK does 100% of the time whenever he does this build now. However on maps where you have access to watch towers your scouting probe can simply sit there as see opponent moving out, so you really dont have to chrono out your first stalker although it really doesnt hurt you if you do chrono out your first stalker anyways just to get rid of their first SCV. i have been doing the build different. I chrono out stalker before I put up 2gates, but i make a couple extra probes and do 4gate instead of 3gate.
so you build only 1 stalker before warpgates finishes? do you have the money to pump units and probes from the 4 gate and the 2 nexi? can you post a replay??
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i really like this build but haven't tried it on ladder yet. i especially like the idea posted about queing up the zealot will help a lot if i sense early aggression.
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On June 12 2011 11:04 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 10:24 travis wrote:On June 12 2011 07:56 peidongyang wrote:
-_- is right you need to make a stalker right away before you put up 2 additional gates, which is what HuK does 100% of the time whenever he does this build now. However on maps where you have access to watch towers your scouting probe can simply sit there as see opponent moving out, so you really dont have to chrono out your first stalker although it really doesnt hurt you if you do chrono out your first stalker anyways just to get rid of their first SCV. i have been doing the build different. I chrono out stalker before I put up 2gates, but i make a couple extra probes and do 4gate instead of 3gate. so you build only 1 stalker before warpgates finishes? do you have the money to pump units and probes from the 4 gate and the 2 nexi? can you post a replay??
I chrono out 1 stalker the second I can.
I do not have the moeny to pump out of all warpgates and nexus. I decide how much to allocate to which based on what my opponent has. sure I have replays but I am no huk lol. just try it for yourself 
I don't see a point of making a zealot. that slows you down a LOT. you should be scouting well enough with your probe to know if they are coming anyways.
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Zealot only slows you down if you allow it to complete. If you disguise your plan by faking gateway production for free, why not?
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I don't really understand where the zealot fits in. You're going to be making a stalker right after you start the nexus but I guess there is a little bit of time where you look like you are doing a standard build for the scv in your main and then you suddenly cancel it and throw down the nexus so I guess that is ok. But in a situation where I was being pressured while doing this build, I've never said to myself, damn if only I had a zealot right now.
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I suppose if you scouted a proxy rax or Marine scv allin rush or something you'd want to abandon the nexus plan and be glad you started a zealot. Anyways yah, a little deception completely for free is always nice. Might dissuade him from sending his first marine to annoy you.
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On June 12 2011 15:13 Alejandrisha wrote:
I don't really understand where the zealot fits in. You're going to be making a stalker right after you start the nexus but I guess there is a little bit of time where you look like you are doing a standard build for the scv in your main and then you suddenly cancel it and throw down the nexus so I guess that is ok. But in a situation where I was being pressured while doing this build, I've never said to myself, damn if only I had a zealot right now.
Well the advantage is little but it's more just a 'just in case' thing in case they do something strange.
There are a few scenario's where this build just isn't that good and you want to do something more normal where you usually need that first zealot, for example:
- proxy rax(es) / low ground rax. Against marine allin you obviously need as many units as possible.
- 2 rax pressure build, reactor first tech lab second (see polt vs alicia GSL). Proceeding with this build against that variation on close air positions, which you scout last on metalopis/shattered temple, is just not smart. Íf they are any good they will be starting their bunker(s) before your warpin units arrive and there is no way to hold the expo then (at least without cutting and sacrificing alot of probes) putting you behind as you didn't get much gas either. A better response imo is to simple let zealot finish, add a 2nd gas asap and go stalkers and sentries before expanding.
Also I found that having something building at the gateway lowers their chance of them blocking your natural, if they see nothing going on you basically reveal this build straight away.
Another thing, why is this build cutting probes at 20? Makes much more sense to cut at 22, depending on what you scout you can even decide to not cut at all then (stalker at 23, pylon afterwards, all chrono on WG tech).
The best execution of this build imo is naniwa vs gretorp at MLG where I believe he doesn't cut probes at all.
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EPT
