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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On June 02 2011 01:11 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 01:01 TheFrankOne wrote:
I was watching Trump's stream the other day and he absolutely crushed this build with a two marauder one marine conc shell poke by bringing two scvs and bunkering towards the natural. It was pretty painful to watch as a toss player. He rallied marauders from one rax and expanded at the same time. He had no idea what was going on until he saw the FE, and after the game said "I love free wins."
Isn't this just straight up a build order loss to that kind of pressure? You should never lose to this kind of build using 20nex. Your first stalker will see it, either at the tower or in the open. Even if he gets a bunker up before you have 4 stalkers, you can simply wait for 3 zealots before your nexus is in danger of falling, clean up and then chase their bio all the way back to their base. Don't be afraid to wait for additional units. Just don't lose any probes that you don't absolutely need to.
hi, can u actually post some replays u using this build vs those many openings terran do?
i think 2rax with Reactor and Techlab presure will kill this in a bad way.
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Like the OP, I'm an avid watcher of huk's stream and saw him do this build many many times over a couple week period. It's really really powerful once it gets off the ground (though huk seems to be doing a different build vs T nowadays, almost always taking two early gases).
I know OP discussed this already above, but it's easy to maybe get confused like shizna did - the gimmick is NOT to trick your opponent into thinking you're 4gating. Huk almost always threw down the nexus in full view of his opponent's scouting SCV. You actually basically can't kill the scout because you're throwing down nexus + 2 gateways before you get a single attacking unit (the first stalker).
Basically, if you do this build, you have to be ready for the T at least apply some pressure. Huk obviously couldn't hold the expo every time, but he did it more often than not with some combination of 1) very good micro and 2) not being afraid to let the nexus take damage while you wait for a couple rounds of warpgate units, and fighting with probes if necessary. Sometimes he would hold but only have red health on his nexus, it can be a thin margin depending on how hard the T pressured.
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I've been trying out this build the past week or so, and I'd like to offer a pretty good transition I've found (well, one that fits the heavy macro style i play  ). I've found in most PvTs that you can hold midgame terran agression off two base by going for 5 gateways and double forges off of two base, and this opening transitions well into that idea. Basically, I fend off the early aggression, throw down 2 more gateways to get up to 5, then two forges when I feel safe (after a few warp-in rounds usually). This style is great against the heavy bio terran play that's so common on the ladder, and puts you on at least even footing with the terran going into the lategame.
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What sort of viability would this build hold in PvP?
it just occurs to me now that if this gets warpgate as fast as a 4gate build, you could theoretically hold a 4gate as you'll have the same economy (any 4gate that is planning on being aggressive will cut probes at 20, and an early nexus will definitely prompt them to be aggressive).
The only concern I have is the late stalker, which may mean that a chrono'd out zealot (upon scouting the zealot) could do some damage, but perhaps you can slightly delay the Nexus in favour of a zealot?
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you die, because the 4gate has 6 stalkers and you have 4/5
and a zealot
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On June 02 2011 14:14 Keilah wrote:
you die, because the 4gate has 6 stalkers and you have 4/5
and a zealot
no, you die because the 4gate has 4gateways and you have 3 -.-
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What's the big difference between this and a Nexus first build? It seems this is less economical and less safe.. but I'm sure I'm missing something.
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On June 02 2011 14:26 zaner132 wrote:
What's the big difference between this and a Nexus first build? It seems this is less economical and less safe.. but I'm sure I'm missing something.
yes you are missing something
this is an aggro build that has a fallback of an expansion
did you even read the OP? it explains the purpose of the build.
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On June 02 2011 13:58 Dhalphir wrote:
What sort of viability would this build hold in PvP?
it just occurs to me now that if this gets warpgate as fast as a 4gate build, you could theoretically hold a 4gate as you'll have the same economy (any 4gate that is planning on being aggressive will cut probes at 20, and an early nexus will definitely prompt them to be aggressive).
The only concern I have is the late stalker, which may mean that a chrono'd out zealot (upon scouting the zealot) could do some damage, but perhaps you can slightly delay the Nexus in favour of a zealot?
This dies to everything in pvp. If he sees you pull gas he's going to chrono units (edit: because it'd look like k4g but with a 12 or 13gate.. :/). Then he sees you make a nexus and his zealot and stalker are in your base before you even have a single unit.
It's a pvt build plain and simple (with applications in PvZ as discussed earlier in the thread)
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ive seen him do this build quite a few times on ladder when it works its amazing however.. ive also seen him get punished by scv all in quite a bit
personally i think its better to mine 100 gas and get your first stalker to get rid of the scout before u drop the nexus..
it may get delayed a bit but it doesn't give away your build instantly
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On June 03 2011 00:46 lim1017 wrote:
ive seen him do this build quite a few times on ladder when it works its amazing however.. ive also seen him get punished by scv all in quite a bit
personally i think its better to mine 100 gas and get your first stalker to get rid of the scout before u drop the nexus..
it may get delayed a bit but it doesn't give away your build instantly
Yes, in light of the warpgate nerf I have been trying getting a stalker and an extra probe from the suggestion in this topic. I believe it's on the page before this one. So you'd be going 21 stalker, so adding the 2 extra gates on 23. After warpgate nerf if you made the extra gates on 20, they would finish and your wg would not yet be ready.
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Still trying to understand how this build holds vs 3rax and other early bio aggro. have one hell of a time holding the expo myself, though im admittedly not the best protoss player. Still interested in how people are holding this vs that kind play, or even better replays because i seem to be missing something.
Also while im on this, i might as well ask for some clarification on base counts. I know zerg wants to be roughly +1 base, etc. But as far as PvT, im a bit unsure about the value of bases. I know its not going to be anything as drastic as wanting to be a whole expo ahead, but are they exactly equal? One race have slightly more value in each additional expo? Not really sure how to compare it due to mules.
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On June 03 2011 00:49 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 00:46 lim1017 wrote:
ive seen him do this build quite a few times on ladder when it works its amazing however.. ive also seen him get punished by scv all in quite a bit
personally i think its better to mine 100 gas and get your first stalker to get rid of the scout before u drop the nexus..
it may get delayed a bit but it doesn't give away your build instantly Yes, in light of the warpgate nerf I have been trying getting a stalker and an extra probe from the suggestion in this topic. I believe it's on the page before this one. So you'd be going 21 stalker, so adding the 2 extra gates on 23. After warpgate nerf if you made the extra gates on 20, they would finish and your wg would not yet be ready.
Actually, lim1017 is saying something slightly different - he's getting a stalker BEFORE the nexus.
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I've been using this and having extreme trouble against 2 rax reactor/tech lab opening. Conc shells kick in right as he's pushing me and the marine marauders or more than the 4 stalkers can deal with
-.-
any advice or is this just a build order loss? I feel like I should be able to hold 2 rax :|
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hey how's the old 1gate expo build doing these days? Did people figure out ways to stop the banshee/marine (or whatever) allins reliably?
Also, for people talking about 15/16 nexus - that build is only safe on maps where the natural has a ramp, meaning Tal'darim altar and Shakuras Plateau. If you can't FF him out of the natural, he can kill your expansion with 2rax marine/scv PF rush. I know I know, who the f knows about this and LOL PF rush, but try it with a friend and you'll see it's true. I don't like using builds that I know my opponent can easily scout and then counter.
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On June 03 2011 06:44 Perplex wrote:
I've been using this and having extreme trouble against 2 rax reactor/tech lab opening. Conc shells kick in right as he's pushing me and the marine marauders or more than the 4 stalkers can deal with
-.-
any advice or is this just a build order loss? I feel like I should be able to hold 2 rax :|
Idunno dude, check my replay a page or two back. I tested vs reactor -> tech lab and crushed it really hard. Possibly that terran did something very wrong, or I was just lucky? Watch the replay and tell me what you think. Maybe I'm just awesome and everyone else sucks =)
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On June 03 2011 06:50 Keilah wrote:
hey how's the old 1gate expo build doing these days?
It's doing great still.
On June 03 2011 06:50 Keilah wrote:
Did people figure out ways to stop the banshee/marine (or whatever) allins reliably?
When I used 1 gate fe, I always get 3 gates before nexus is complete and when it finishes, I have just enough money to make a forge and a stargate. I put a cannon before the 10 minute mark at the ramp and 1 in each mineral line.
All you have to do is defend the all-in (and you scout the signs ofc: double gas, no tech-lab, bunker). Zealot/Sentry/Phoenix with 1-2 cannons did the job quite well if I remember correctly.
On June 03 2011 06:50 Keilah wrote:
Also, for people talking about 15/16 nexus - that build is only safe on maps where the natural has a ramp, meaning Tal'darim altar and Shakuras Plateau. If you can't FF him out of the natural, he can kill your expansion with 2rax marine/scv PF rush. I know I know, who the f knows about this and LOL PF rush, but try it with a friend and you'll see it's true.
You don't need forcefields to defend yourself when you're using a 16 nexus.. If he's PF rushing you might as well bring all your probes from the natural to fight.
If you scout 2 raxes you can easily just chrono out a lot of units while building more gates.
On June 03 2011 06:50 Keilah wrote:
I don't like using builds that I know my opponent can easily scout and then counter.
My friend (KoKoRO: 1100 Masters) always 2 raxes me because he knows I always do 16 nexus.
He fails.
So how would engi+cc+fortress+gas works? Making an engineering bay just delays your rush and making a command center delays the rush by a lot too.
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well, the guy who posted the nexus first OP believes 2rax+PF wins. I'm aware that just 2rax doesn't win.
Instead of pooh-poohing, why not try it a few times with a friend? I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
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I really like this build, I won almost every game with it until a reaper jumped into my base  gg
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On June 03 2011 08:22 Keilah wrote:
well, the guy who posted the nexus first OP believes 2rax+PF wins. I'm aware that just 2rax doesn't win.
Instead of pooh-poohing, why not try it a few times with a friend? I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
Well I mean I destroy his force. If I can destroy his force, what is something that has to be LIFTED, MOVED, and takes another 50 seconds to morph going to do to me while I'm out destroying his force because you can scout?
Anyways, I just checked the thread and I can't see the post that STATES it.
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EPT
