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On May 30 2011 03:33 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 23:53 Alejandrisha wrote:On May 29 2011 20:09 shizna wrote:
it looks like the entire build is 'trick him into thinking its a 4gate', but if the terran knows this trick is a possibility he'll scout at the right time...
also, i believe that it only works because early conc shell marauder rush has fazed out. a lot of koreans seem to be opening tvp with marauders again, so it looks like this protoss build has had it's day already. No.. there's not as big a gimmick to this build as you are making it out. It doesn't straight up die to all rushes. marauders are not what scare you; it's marine-heavy 2 rax pressure with pulled scvs which the terran can only pull off if they scout you early enough and know to make this adjustment. this has been covered in the thread repeatedly. the point is that once this build becomes more popular, terran will be aware of it... they will know exactly the right time to scout in order to hard counter. not dismissing the build, it's just not what i would call a 'solid' build order. theorycrafting a bit, on large maps you can get away with 1 gate nexus or nexus first anyway... why would you delay this just to make it look like you're doing a 4gate?
the point of the build is not to make them think you are 4gating. I don't know where you are getting that this is the gimmick of the build
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On May 30 2011 03:50 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 03:33 shizna wrote:On May 29 2011 23:53 Alejandrisha wrote:On May 29 2011 20:09 shizna wrote:
it looks like the entire build is 'trick him into thinking its a 4gate', but if the terran knows this trick is a possibility he'll scout at the right time...
also, i believe that it only works because early conc shell marauder rush has fazed out. a lot of koreans seem to be opening tvp with marauders again, so it looks like this protoss build has had it's day already. No.. there's not as big a gimmick to this build as you are making it out. It doesn't straight up die to all rushes. marauders are not what scare you; it's marine-heavy 2 rax pressure with pulled scvs which the terran can only pull off if they scout you early enough and know to make this adjustment. this has been covered in the thread repeatedly. the point is that once this build becomes more popular, terran will be aware of it... they will know exactly the right time to scout in order to hard counter. not dismissing the build, it's just not what i would call a 'solid' build order. theorycrafting a bit, on large maps you can get away with 1 gate nexus or nexus first anyway... why would you delay this just to make it look like you're doing a 4gate? the point of the build is not to make them think you are 4gating. I don't know where you are getting that this is the gimmick of the build
oh, well it seemed like a gimmick to me because you're doing a lot of worker cutting at <20 supply.
investing a lot into both getting an early expansion and early gateways, may be wasteful if the opponent doesn't go for a standard timing attack and is also seemingly weak to very early pressure.
is it worth making sacrifices to get an early expansion, when you don't have anywhere near enough workers to saturate your main? if you can get away with fast expo without having to power a crapload of gateways, then fair enough..
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this build is so good, winning almost all my games with this
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Alejandrisha one question, how does this build fare vs 14/15/16 nexus builds? in terms of economy and defense vs cheese? i know that it is quite good against marine scv all ins but what about 3 rax timing pushes? either with stim or without
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On May 17 2011 11:53 KingofGods wrote:
I agree a sentry is paramount here. I was just testing out the timings against a computer and even a simple 1 rax pressure will have units at your base before your warp gate finishes. If you just have 1 stalker, you will lose to a marin and marauder. The sentry will at least delay them long enough for your warp gate research to finish and warp in 3 stalkers to deal with it.
I disagree with those who say you can simply abandon the build depending on what you scout. The marine will chase your probe out of your base at about 3:05. At that point you already have to decide if you are going to make a zealot or not. If he's already marching towards your base, it's too late to suddenly say "oh crap, I need a sentry". It might be possible to chrono out your sentry at that point (I haven't tested it), but that would be one less chrono on your warp gate and that still puts you in trouble.
The first stalker should be able to annoy the Rine/Rauder all the way to your base without dying, and if you're quick enough, kill the marine before any real damage is done, and then probe/stalker a marauder to death  Conc would never be out in time for any real worth unless your terran buddy's going to pull scv's for a 1 rine 1 rauder all in :DDD
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Here's a couple replays of this build in action.
Game 1
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-211347.jpg)
In this game the Terran player misreads my build as a 4gate due to not spotting the Nexus with his scouting scv. Accordingly, I take a huge economic lead as he bunkers up his ramp until around 7minutes when he realises I'm not attacking and moves out with some ghosts, but at this point my economic lead is too much and I roll over his army.
Game 2
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-211666.jpg)
In this game, the Terran player does spot my Nexus almost immediately, goes for a 1rax expand himself. I break his ramp easily a few minutes later with my four warp gates.
edit: These replays are of myself as a Master level protoss playing against a couple Diamond level friends. I haven't used this build on ladder yet.
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Here's the replay of me testing this build vs reactor->techlab 2rax.
I get a 2nd stalker and 1-2 more probes than the build as written in OP.
I crush the push, it wasn't even close but he did execute pretty badly (he's a protoss user).
http://drop.sc/11624
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On May 30 2011 18:14 Keilah wrote:Here's the replay of me testing this build vs reactor->techlab 2rax. I get a 2nd stalker and 1-2 more probes than the build as written in OP. I crush the push, it wasn't even close but he did execute pretty badly (he's a protoss user). http://drop.sc/11624
Looks pretty solid to me. I'll have to do a few games with my teammate to do additional testing but that hits about the same timings. Well done!
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I've been practicing this build a lot with my practice partner, and it's been working great! However, recently, he's been blocking my nexus with an engi bay if he sees me pull probes out of gas. What is the best transition out of this after he blocks my nexus, as he then has full scouting of my base because I don't have a stalker.
Thanks!
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do what I do and instead of pulling probes, wait to the last moment and put them in late. If they even see it, they probably just think you are noob and forgot to put guys in gas =]
If you mine gas and then pull, and he reacts by blocking the expo, your options are: expand elsewhere (have your scouting probe be waiting so you're ready in case he blocks) or just go back to whatever build you used to do before this one.
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Absolutely love this strategy! Big thanks. Recently I've switched it up slighly, taking 100 gas instead of 50 and made a stalker right after the nexus. It's good to get rid of scouts early - and I've been having some "problems" with early reapers. Either way, wonderful way to FE.
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I do the same as Restyle because of the reapers.
Most problems I have with stim pushes, a lot of marines and few marauders.
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having a ton of trouble with this build vs agressive 3rax or even worse 5+ rax all-in ish stuff. I'm leveling an account thru Plat/Diamond-ish play right now, so I would say that i dont need this kinda econ edge to win. But I think if this build is as stable as people are making it out to be, its a good place to get used to it, as ill have plenty of practice vs allin pressure.
I mean it doesnt even really seem to have to be done "correctly", just any kind of agressive bio or all-in has been all but impossble for me to hold. Anyone have any insight for me here on how to hold o nthis kind of play. Or even better replays holding this build vs agressive bio ( I know its not exactly ideal for the build but examples with smallers maps would be best, as the largest maps its not as much of an issue.) kkthxguys
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Btw, is it bad to use this strategy PvZ if you scout that Z did 15 hatch? you have that 1 stalker to micro against lings and your 4 stalker finishes before Z gets speed finishes so you have some time available to pressure the Z
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Hmm, after testing I actually find my normal 3 gate pressure expand to be more useful. The Nexus comes slower, however, with the 3 gates up you can build up lots of sentries (which this build lacks and lets face it, sentries are incredibly powerful) and pressure him with them, and then possibly going into a 6 gate all-in off two base economy or do 5 gate and double forge.
This is an interesting build though, I am thinking you could transition into a two base all-in quicker with it on large maps, or just get a good economic lead with it.
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I was watching Trump's stream the other day and he absolutely crushed this build with a two marauder one marine conc shell poke by bringing two scvs and bunkering towards the natural. It was pretty painful to watch as a toss player. He rallied marauders from one rax and expanded at the same time. He had no idea what was going on until he saw the FE, and after the game said "I love free wins."
Isn't this just straight up a build order loss to that kind of pressure?
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if the protoss is bad yes.. not sure why you would lose to that. your warpgates should finish somewhat soon and you can pull probes to help then put them at the nexus when the fight is over
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On June 02 2011 01:01 TheFrankOne wrote:
I was watching Trump's stream the other day and he absolutely crushed this build with a two marauder one marine conc shell poke by bringing two scvs and bunkering towards the natural. It was pretty painful to watch as a toss player. He rallied marauders from one rax and expanded at the same time. He had no idea what was going on until he saw the FE, and after the game said "I love free wins."
Isn't this just straight up a build order loss to that kind of pressure?
You should never lose to this kind of build using 20nex. Your first stalker will see it, either at the tower or in the open. Even if he gets a bunker up before you have 4 stalkers, you can simply wait for 3 zealots before your nexus is in danger of falling, clean up and then chase their bio all the way back to their base. Don't be afraid to wait for additional units. Just don't lose any probes that you don't absolutely need to.
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ive done this build at high masters twice tonight, lost twice to marine maruder banshee all in with 2x raven
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This looks really and absolutely interesting. As soon as finals are over, I will try this and watch the replays. I hope this solves my expansion problem once and for all >_<
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EPT
