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On June 18 2011 00:46 Alejandrisha wrote:
Also I have an update on the nAni variant.
The build is like this:
9 Pylon
11 Gate
14 Gas
16 Pylon
17 Core
20 wg/nex
20 2 gates
20 stalker, resume probe production.
He gets the WG out slightly faster than our new variant but I have a huge problem with this build.
He is forcing the build to work the same way it did pre-patch after the patch. I think that, in all of your builds, you should try to take whatever a patch throws at you as an oppurtunity to squeeze out something extra instead of trying to make sacrifices to get the same thing you used to be able to get.
He doesn't get his stalker before his gateways which leaves him vulnerable to reapers and every other kind of pre-warpgate shenanigan. It is essentially doing the same build but sacrificing economy and safety to get pre-wg nerf WG timing.
ye i noticed he did the gate at 11 and got his first stalker unneccesary late which i didn't realize at first. Simply put the build is just very inefficient. He also chrono's his stalker for some weird reason and then has his extra gates finish way before WG finishes, overall a very blunt version and just really bad.
I do think getting more then 20 probes before cutting is simply better now. With 4 chrono's on WG tech you can easily get more probes and still have gate #2 and #3 finish before WG does. You can even get a third pylon first and then have WG finish at the same time as gate #2, with gate #3 shortly after. Simply put the current version of the build is inefficient.
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I've been winning with this on ladder quite frequently vs terrans. Only problems ive had is dealing with early 2 rax pressure or 3 rax. I wont do this build if im close spawn, i see 1 or 2 gas on smaller maps and cant steal second if there is only 1,. Otherwise it is my go to build if they are doing a gasless expo you basically win the game right there especially if you can stop the bunker from finishing (go super fast 6 gate as [ only 2 gas and cut probes at about 40]. I do have a slight variation though in that i get 100 gas and get a stalker and wg at the same time just to scare away any scout and for secondary scouting.
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I get pounded with this build by a one base MM push
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On June 18 2011 03:34 MastaShake wrote:
I get pounded with this build by a one base MM push
This doesn't contribute to the discussion very well...
When does the push come? Unit count? Does he have: stim? conc. shells? shields?
If it's a very, very fast push with just a few barracks units, no upgrades, and probably some SCVs, then a hyper-crisp opener and good stalker micro (kiting all the way back to your base) is going to help you.
If it's later, then we need to know what you're doing as your 2base econ kicks in to diagnose what's going on.
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This build has given me new hope for my PvT games, I can finally say I can deal well enough with the most terran rax openers (:
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2 Rax pressure MM w/ SCV's gives this build a slight problem (rauders marines, doesn't have to be exactly 12/16) as you have to cut a lot of probes and bring them to save your squishy stalkers. If you get hit by one slow nade, it gets pretty rough lol.
I still love this build against any marine nogas FE openers as most of the time, they don't expect the super aggressive style and get killed by it thinking that ima just make probes. You force mineral repair, force him to pull off SCVs (a lot of lost mining time), and you get a better economy vs the marine nogas FE openers.
So how do you deal with the early pressure? Just micro your probes to kill the marines and focus fire the rauders? It is hard when there's SCVs though. 
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HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUK
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On June 21 2011 02:39 Alejandrisha wrote:
HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUK
SMASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
edit:
On June 18 2011 10:41 iChau wrote:2 Rax pressure MM w/ SCV's gives this build a slight problem (rauders marines, doesn't have to be exactly 12/16) as you have to cut a lot of probes and bring them to save your squishy stalkers. If you get hit by one slow nade, it gets pretty rough lol. I still love this build against any marine nogas FE openers as most of the time, they don't expect the super aggressive style and get killed by it thinking that ima just make probes. You force mineral repair, force him to pull off SCVs (a lot of lost mining time), and you get a better economy vs the marine nogas FE openers. So how do you deal with the early pressure? Just micro your probes to kill the marines and focus fire the rauders? It is hard when there's SCVs though.
yea 2rax is really annoying for this build. I've pretty much stopped using this build in favour of either straight up nexus first or 2gate FE.
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I have the hugest grin on my face right now. people are looking at me like wtf who likes filing papers that much
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It seems to me like we are getting the gateways early by doing it at 20. My gateways always end up finishing like 20 starcraft seconds before warp gate tech completes. I've since favored continuing probe production after making the nexus, and putting the gateways down at like 22.
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On June 21 2011 02:49 Alejandrisha wrote:
I have the hugest grin on my face right now. people are looking at me like wtf who likes filing papers that much
+ Show Spoiler +His first major win since mlg, and he had to go through such tough opponents. I don't think your grin is anywhere near as big as huk's right now =]
edit: spoilerd
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True. Anyway, I apologize; enough derailing. Will edit this post with actual content in a minute! 
+ Show Spoiler +2 Rax pressure MM w/ SCV's gives this build a slight problem (rauders marines, doesn't have to be exactly 12/16) as you have to cut a lot of probes and bring them to save your squishy stalkers. If you get hit by one slow nade, it gets pretty rough lol.
I still love this build against any marine nogas FE openers as most of the time, they don't expect the super aggressive style and get killed by it thinking that ima just make probes. You force mineral repair, force him to pull off SCVs (a lot of lost mining time), and you get a better economy vs the marine nogas FE openers.
So how do you deal with the early pressure? Just micro your probes to kill the marines and focus fire the rauders? It is hard when there's SCVs though.
Against reactor-tech lab, I actually have not been having as much trouble with the recent change to the build (namely, stalker before additional gates because you have 5 once WG finishes, a little before 6 minutes).
The key here is not getting your first stalker shot in the face by a marauder. This can be helped two ways.
With your initial probe, you should be able to figure out if he is OBVIOUSLY going bio or OBVIOUSLY not. I say 'obvious' as in he is not doing anything super sneaky, ie. hiding the 2nd rax and everything that comes out of it, or going 3 racks whilst putting a bunker at the bottom of his ramp (maker style for those who know); note that this can't be accomplished on the first probe scout. Keep it around his natural and poke up or around the ramp to see if you get hit by a marauder shell. If you make an obvious read on tech lab racks, it's best to sit on your initial stalker and stay there until you have your 2nd one out and WG is almost completed. Have your scouting probe, off to the side, after starting the pylon check for the expansion and even the tower to check for rallied units to your base. The nice thing about being pressured this way is that once you get your 5 stalkers, once you pick off the marauders, you can micro against the marines quite easily and he will lose EVERY SINGLE UNIT that he send across the map. You can usually win just by chasing him back to his base and killing the bunker right before or as it is finishing Make use of that half-map proxy pylon!
One thing I have realized with the WG nerf in conjunction with the change in build is that you are suddenly open to rallied 2 naked rax marine + bunker + scv pressure. I thought that this build would do well against this type of all-inish play but you just don't get the stalker fast enough unless you get it blindly. You could scout 2 rax, no gas with your first probe but this would entail scouting the entire base (which you should be able to do since the first marine won't begin until he is at 15 food and in order for the rush to do any real damage his 2nd rax would have to be on 14 food) as well as proxy locations. The locations, on 4 player maps, would be pretty generic ones in the middle of the map because there is no way he can scout you in time to get a really close one. On two player maps it will be a bit trickier, however.
When I faced this, I wasn't able to get the first stalker out in time to deny the bunker and had to sac the nexus. I wasn't extremely far behind but definitely at a strong disadvantage. So, I recommend scouting the entire base more carefully if you scout no gas (I used to just assume 1 rax gasless fe) and make sure he is not doing a 2rax rush with or w/o a proxy. If he is, cb the first stalker out immediately and consider cutting one of the gateways for a slimmer, faster stalker rush and push his marines back to his base.
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Did Huk use this build during Dreamhack?
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Too bad I didn't get to see HuK showcase this build at Dreamhack. Did he actually do it and I just missed it? If so who was it against? Would really like to watch the vods and try to see exactly what's going through his head.
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On June 21 2011 02:51 Axeltoss wrote:
It seems to me like we are getting the gateways early by doing it at 20. My gateways always end up finishing like 20 starcraft seconds before warp gate tech completes. I've since favored continuing probe production after making the nexus, and putting the gateways down at like 22.
u get the 2 gateways after ur first stalker so... 22 food. then they finish right as/slightly after warpgate finishes
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On June 21 2011 09:45 CodECleaR wrote:
Too bad I didn't get to see HuK showcase this build at Dreamhack. Did he actually do it and I just missed it? If so who was it against? Would really like to watch the vods and try to see exactly what's going through his head.
hmm i can't quite remember, but i don't think he did. he didn't face any terrans after group stages, so if he did use this build it would be against tarson or fury.
I only watched one game of the 4, + Show Spoiler +Huk 2-0ed both of them. In said game, Huk went for DT 3gate FE so ... unless he did it in one of the other 3 games =/ but I honestly don't think huk uses this build anymore though I could be mistaken.
edit: oh my bad he played predy in ro16 LOL.
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I find that you lose to a 2 rax with around 3 marines + 1/2 rauder hitting you, and they're constantly streaming units to your base. Your thoughts?
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On June 21 2011 13:07 Axel.Bowex wrote:
I find that you lose to a 2 rax with around 3 marines + 1/2 rauder hitting you, and they're constantly streaming units to your base. Your thoughts?
that sounds like tech lab-reactor. shouldn't have any trouble getting your 5 stalkers out before you have to engage. If you're having problems it probably means your freaking out from his pressure and losing track of your chrono or slipping up in the build, or you are engaging before you have 5 stalkers. if this type of pressure is coming don't transfer probes to the natural until you have cleared it up
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EPT
