EPT[D] Is there a way to beat Spanishiwa's build? (P) - Page 5
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
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brum
Hungary187 Posts
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Moonling
United States987 Posts
On April 18 2011 14:44 brum wrote: As a zerg, speaking from experience it's quite easy to beat this build if you play a macro game. Take your nat right away, make ~10 zealots and an offensive unit comp of your choice (vr/phoenix/dt) and take your 3rd. Once you are on 4 bases and maxed zerg will have to attack you. Well placed forcefields can annihilate the first zergling army without your army taking any damage. The fungals won't even kill your stalker ball before the zerglings are dead, you you are free to pick off the infestors. Keep expanding. At this point it's gg for the zerg. What about the ultras that break the force fields? And then the lings have free reign and there 3/3 with Adrenalin glands? Plus the dps from fungal and him NP your Colli? remember if ur on 4 bases prepare for mass queen transfuse on ultras + 3/3 lings and about 10 infestors which can kill ur entire army in about 8 fungals by itself. Thanks for giving the advice but its not very helpful TBH | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
It is also very strong against any kind of 4 gate stuff. I guess, as some have said already, that a powerful way of playing against this build would be no robo tech, but mass gateways and templar tech. But it's only theory here, as I didn't saw any game like this. (but I've seen a lot of standard protoss game already against this build, and usually it's a better build than standard zerg play, which is basically macro game into zerg gg) | ||
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Gooey
United States944 Posts
Also, don't assume they will just go a certain tech pattern, or use a style of play because of their opening. Blind countering drops and nydus with speedlings/banelings/infestors is the absolute wrong way to go about it. Make sure you have ways to scout the zerg unit composition or tech! As for dealing with the dropping/nydus play, I personally just stayed on gateway only with templar tech for 3 bases and delayed getting void rays until their hive started. I do end up getting robo once my 3rd goes down just for obs (creep becomes really hard to deal with on a map like xel'naga or metal if you let it get too far). All unit compositions aside, just be aware of the minimap if you suspect drop and nydus play, and have some fun! I have personally been having an absolute blast playing against this type of all out zerg aggression, and then throwing it back at them once I get my 3rd base rolling. Multitasking is what reigns king over who makes what unit composition, and I love it! Thanks to all of the zergs for not being so boring and one dimensional lately, pvz was starting to become drab ^^ I'm going to go look for some zerg buddies to play now, this is just getting me excited again like last night. | ||
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EMPaThy789
New Zealand878 Posts
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zylog
Canada943 Posts
On April 18 2011 14:44 brum wrote: As a zerg, speaking from experience it's quite easy to beat this build if you play a macro game. Take your nat right away, make ~10 zealots and an offensive unit comp of your choice (vr/phoenix/dt) and take your 3rd. Once you are on 4 bases and maxed zerg will have to attack you. Well placed forcefields can annihilate the first zergling army without your army taking any damage. The fungals won't even kill your stalker ball before the zerglings are dead, you you are free to pick off the infestors. Keep expanding. At this point it's gg for the zerg. I'm not sure if you're playing this build correctly as zerg. The idea is that early on, mineral income and larvae limit drone production. By making queens (no larvae needed), spines (1 larva per spine) and delaying gas (higher mineral income), you can reach that magic number of 44 drones (2 bases fully saturated) much more quickly than typical builds. At this point, zerg takes the offensive, aggressively attacking the third while dropping in the main. You'll hit 2 base saturation well before protoss does, and the aggression makes it difficult for him to secure his third at that point. It's a pretty cool build, but I understand how some of the pros may be critical of it. Pros tend to have good multitasking and control, and there's utility in having speedlings on the field. It allows them to be aggressive if they desire, to scout and play reactively, so they may be able to extract better use for that research early on. | ||
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adaptablefuton
United States34 Posts
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osten
Sweden316 Posts
In zvz I outecon this, by excpecting him to drone. Which he almost always does. | ||
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Gooey
United States944 Posts
On April 18 2011 16:39 osten wrote: You only analyze from a pvz perspective, very ignorant. In zvz I outecon this, by excpecting him to drone. Which he almost always does. Hate to be rude, but this thread is labled as (P) to indicate the topic is in regards to a build against protoss and how protoss can go about dealing with it, whilst posting videos and descriptions of games being played in a bo7 dealing with it, followed by thoughtful analysis of each game that was played. I don't know where the ignorance is coming from, considering the thread is "How does -protoss- deal with this specific build?". For the sake of being nice, I will refrain from commenting on your second sentence and third fragment =) | ||
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osten
Sweden316 Posts
That being said I play many PvZ with my training partner, and had to give this build up so really I can bring some things to the table anyway; He does a push, not always of course, but the one that breaks it that makes me need to make even more spines or fail on other things, even if he dosen't come. And that is just a standard push with the first warping, after having constructed in the gates 3 zeal 2 sentry 1 stalker. Even if he has 2 queens at the ramp, spines, and two more defender queens, he has to do not drones, and then the build can't get max sat before gas, which was already late. I don't know what you mean by your last phrase, i'm not trying to be rude I didn't see the (P). | ||
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Nonamesleft
Canada4 Posts
Although it's all-in, 4gate delayed blink Stalkers -> hit at 8:00 min mark and he cannot hold this. You need hydras and his Lair is really really late. At least that's how I do it. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
stargate + 3gate, pump out voids and use the vision to warp in on high ground, you completely avoid his spinecrawlerwall i see a lot of people suggesting to rush for DT's, now, DT's do a lot of dmg, but also die quite fast, i would like to see if archons are viable to do an early push with, bc the archons would kind of own slow lings hard and very quick. This is just a thought i had, haven't tried it out, but it surely sounds quite nice for a delayed 4gate (archons instead of sentries, since sentries aren't really helpfull if you're doing a 4gate against the ice pincer) my 2 cents  | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
I guess you could also throw in a stargate if you see a good overlord spread, the opponent will feel save with the queens and remake ovis and drones and you could hide your drop better. Unless the opponent knows you are going for this fast drop he won't have enough creep spread in his main to stop the warp prism with his mass queens. And you could simply position the prism at the cliff as a bridge. Drop is in general avialable super fast for every race, and can punish any static defense fe. Especially if they delay gas to long. And the warp prism is especially evil as you can fly into the main drop 4 zealots, fly to the natural and warp in zealots. (I think players up to diamond aren't able to deal with this good enough to not take lots of eco damage). So <3 warp prism it is a 200 mineral scout that allows to add a side attack from any point, without cutting army, just reinforcements. But i found out the warp prism is the best tilter ^.^. (25% chance that the person pulls all his workers to reinforce his attack) | ||
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ledgerhs
United States34 Posts
His lategame revolves around nydasing queens around for transfuse, so templar feedback works nicely there. He also seems to favor going for ultras, so immortals can be good transition in the lategame, just need a lot of prisms to make them mobile enough. Don't think early DTs solve anything, as chamber and spores are relatively accessible for this build. Spines are really immobile, so anything like 3gate robo prism play should deny a ton of mining time. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On April 18 2011 14:34 whatthefat wrote: If you watch Spanishiwa's stream, you'll see that whenever he sniffs out DTs or stargate he rushes the evo chamber. Much better for Protoss to play economically against this build in my opinion, along the lines of Darkforce's suggestions. If the zerg player is decent, they won't take any serious damage from a cheese - with the exception of proxy 2 gate, but that's blind and should lose to basically any pool first opening. I disagree, Dark Templars don't actually have to do damage. Archons are great against Ling/Baneling so you will need that DT shrine eventually, but with DT's you can deny any early thirds and gain complete map control with 2 units whilst being super greedy. They also snipe creep tumors pretty fast so you can stop any creep spread from the zerg without having to be worried about getting surprised by 500000 lings. | ||
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Eleaven
772 Posts
minigun didn;t lose because of 5 spinecrawlers or 4 queens, or a 13 hatch. He lost because he got outplayed. Take zatics advice on this one.. | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
On April 18 2011 12:40 NinjaDrone wrote: Lately I've been doing nothing but Spanishiwa's Build in ZvP. I play random so I've only gotten it 6 times but so far I'm 5-1. I've held off everything from cannon rushes to huge death balls. The only time I lost is when he got a critical mass of void rays in the late, late game after we had traded armies half a dozen times. I definitely made some mistakes but I think mass air has some viability against this build. After reading the posts though I agree that Archons seem like a great choice against this build. an Archon / Void ray army would absolutely decimate this build in a straight up fight (with excess minerals spent on cannons and chargelots to absorb baneling shots.) Next time a Zerg uses this build and I roll Protoss I'll try it out. The problem is surviving until you can get enough Archons and Void Rays without falling too far behind in the base count. Absolutely under no circumstances should you go the traditional Colossus ball against this build! This build is specifically designed to capitalize on how units in the Colossus ball stack on each other, maximizing baneling damage. I've been practicing against a similar mid-late game build for a couple months now. Colossus are still good, yes but not many. Two or three colossus with mass gateway army, dt/phoenix harassment, and a goal of the same 2-3 colossus, archon, with many many void rays. Void rays are so good. Chargelots will eat up small numbers of hydras no problem. Getting there is the more difficult situation, that's a lot of gas. When considering such a gas heavy army I've found a couple very good things to make it that far. 1) Cannons are your best friend, both offensively and defensively. Cannon rush their thirds similar to how you cannon rush mains, low ground then high ground. On maps like shakuras you can high ground cannon their third if they take the natural (same with 4th on metal and shattered). Yes, zerg may see it, but if not you're in great shape. Defensively, simcity well with gates/cannons at your expos. Lings are not good against cannons, especially when they cannot hit them. 2) You have excess minerals keep harassing with zealots along with the dt/phoenix. Warp prisms and proxy pylons. Keep the zerg army in their base defending tech structures and workers. Killing key tech buildings cannot be underestimated. You're sacking supply while pushing towards your ideal, high gas composition. Also, don't forget what terran have known for ages, spreads are great against banes. This is especially true with colossus. If you get a nice colossus spread in FRONT of your army, they either attack the high hp colossus with banes or get laser'd the whole way to engage the rest of your army. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On April 17 2011 17:43 Tailzz wrote: - to be honest, this build is very susceptible to most cheeses that can be thrown from the protoss arsenal. Well, if a game is suspectible to cheese, then the cheese becomes a regular strategy. :-) | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
1) Relying on spinecrawlers as static defense --> use mobile units that circumvent this, namely warp prism drops, blink stalker. When he roots the spines, just avoid them, and go attack somewhere else abusing his immobility. His queens have awful ground dps. Also do not focus fire a queen unless you one shot it. He will be also focus-transfusing that queen. It's much harder for him to have to transfuse different queens, or wasting transfuses on queens that aren't almost dying. 2) go dark templar, high templar route, instead of colossus. Since he can't be much agressive, the main weakness of HT, the fact that it's a big investment that takes a while to pay off, will disappear. Besides, Zergling drops can just circumvent forcefields and get to the colossus really fast. Also, HT, will simply clean up mass zerglinsg and banes like colossus can't. The queens also have a very good dps vs colossus since they use their air attack. It will also be useful to cast feedback on the infestors / queens. The queens without energy will just be wasted minerals. Archons will be able to tank a lot of bane / zergling / ultra damage plus they are very good vs bio. Since his build relies a lot of counters, many times to the main, instead of warping in a zealot in the small choke of gate + cyber which can be quickly killed by his upgraded zerglings, warping in a dt instead, means he will never be able to get in. 3) If you're going 3 gate expo, no need to wall off with gate + cyber. Get gate + cyber like you would in pvp or pvt, then block it normally with the other 2 gates. If he produces zerglings beause he thinks he can enter to your main, its wasted larvae and resources. And since he doesn't have speed, the time it will take for him to reach your base will be more than enough so that the same choke is created by the 2 gates and the zealot. 4) I'm not so sure about air builds because of queens, but the only one i could see working would be including carriers so queens can't really attack the carriers themselves, but have to shoot at the interceptors. Being one of the highest dps units in the game, and not overkilling that much, they are also good for cleaning up swarm of low hp units like banes and zerglings. Some voids in the mix could help aggainst both broods and ultras since they're both massive, and interceptors have some hard time passing through the ultras armor, and also for cleaning up possible corruptors that would come to deal with the carriers.. | ||
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