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On May 26 2011 09:37 Catch]22 wrote:
I'm having huge troubles with a powerful Void Ray Colossus push, it usually happends just before I get my corruptors rockin'...
You could easily max out if you have the high level mechanics when Protoss is around 130 supply, keep harassing or attacking him, having the mind set you can reinforce a lot faster. Do not force yourself to engage in small chokes, if must just do a couple of 4 Roach drops and try to catch his army offguard and keep him distracted from macroing.
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On May 25 2011 16:28 Kraelog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 23:28 Vlanun wrote:
I was under the impression that Forge FE would beat Spanishiwa's build.
At least that has been my experience.
You may argue that Z can easily take a third, but in most maps, the third is too far to allow a Forge FE harassing toss.
Toss can macro faster with a Forge FE, and keep harassing.
At least its what has been happening to me as Z. Yeah a FFE or nexus first will counter Spanishiwa pretty hard. With FFE he can deliver significant damage with cannoning your natural and with nexus first he's ahead on economy. The basic premise of Spanishiwa is to arrive in the midgame extreemely fast with a solid economic lead. If that is not the case you're left with two-base late econ and a bunch of useless semi-static defenses.
I don't think you necessarily have to arrive at the midgame with a huge economic lead, the point just seems to be that you hit the midgame with a solid tech explosion which leads into heavy harassment and eventually aggression. Also, why would you be left with a bunch of useless static defense if you scouted FFE or nexus first? No reason to make a lot of spines, you'll have several queens, good creep spread, and solid drone saturation very quickly.
I mean sure, if all my drops or nydus worms or burrow infestor harass are shut down flawlessly and the toss continues to macro and expand well I'll probably be behind, but I feel like you can say that about any harassment style.
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My question is, how would you combat an Idra style spanishiwa build, pretty much this build with fast speed transitioning into dubling rain -> Possible mutas. The 1 zealot 1 stalker harass is generally nullified, most mega-gate all ins are nullified, and Laser Toss is simply not a strong strategic choice against dubling... and I'm starting to feel straight Blink+Colossus isn't great against it either. What can be done?
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Yeah, but people used to think that 2rax-SCV all ins were impossible to beat, too. It seems to be just a (incoming blast for using this word) metagame issue that hasn't been resolved yet. Every build has its holes, and I'm sure that soon the Ice Fisher will be proven the same. After all, if it were the end-all, be-all of ZvP builds, then it's all that we would ever see from the pros.
Of course, I still can never remember the variations for this build for each different race, so I suppose my opinion wouldn't carry much weight. ^^
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i ripped this from artosis, though i don't know if he came up with it.
note this only works against a gasless z
i crono twice on probes, skip the first zealot, throw down the standard 12 gate 16/17 core
then crono out 4 stalkers, send the first tow to be annoying, rally the second two onto the first two.
harass harass harass. works best on close positions havent tried it on cross positions or larger maps, doubt it would be effective. priority is sniping queens, morphing spines and drones. if theres only one spine in the nat you can walk into the main if you feel ballsy, just make sure to kite lings. back out if it looks like ling speed is going to finish or there are too many spines. your objective is to set back the economy and force him to make spines/lings. make sure you expand behind this. then transition into whatever you'de like. i've been ahving great success with mass gateway units (generally i transition into 5 gates with +1 and blink and just win, but if i cant take it with that i generally have hts with storm on the way after the first 5gate poke is done.
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On May 21 2011 12:15 yiodee wrote:
you guys are being too cute by saying: "yeah DT rush beats this" or "blink stalker pwns" and forget the fact that the zerg will still sac an overlord to see what you are doing. If you have ever seen spanishiwa playing you will notice his superior game sense. He is not good because his build is great, he is good because he can adapt to his opponent's strategies. I would love to see spanishiwa himself posting in this thread explaining how he would react to some of the build that have been proposed here.
You are also ignoring the fact that zerg will have 4 queens + transfusion and even if you blink past the spine crawlers he can block the ramp and attack with lings. Or he can kill the warp prism and then deal with zealots + anything else you dropped. Plus, Zerg probably saw the robo with the overlord and prepared for your gimmicks. This opening is just an opening like any other; but you can't beat a good zerg's game sense.
That said, please re-think your answers and keep the discussion because as a zerg I am also interested in knowing the weaknesses of this build.
Last, I personally thing that maybe you should drone scout with this build. Not sure when though. I dont think spanishiwa mentioned it on 12 weeks with the pros.
This isn't about playing against spanishiwa, this is about playing against his build
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Usually when I play ladder and see my opponent put up more that 4 spine crawlers I would go for early medvacs ans just drop in his main, to be more specific I would build the starport with a reactor and build 2 medvacs at the same time and go for drop either dropping blue flame hellions or a group of marines
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On May 26 2011 12:48 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 12:15 yiodee wrote:
you guys are being too cute by saying: "yeah DT rush beats this" or "blink stalker pwns" and forget the fact that the zerg will still sac an overlord to see what you are doing. If you have ever seen spanishiwa playing you will notice his superior game sense. He is not good because his build is great, he is good because he can adapt to his opponent's strategies. I would love to see spanishiwa himself posting in this thread explaining how he would react to some of the build that have been proposed here.
You are also ignoring the fact that zerg will have 4 queens + transfusion and even if you blink past the spine crawlers he can block the ramp and attack with lings. Or he can kill the warp prism and then deal with zealots + anything else you dropped. Plus, Zerg probably saw the robo with the overlord and prepared for your gimmicks. This opening is just an opening like any other; but you can't beat a good zerg's game sense.
That said, please re-think your answers and keep the discussion because as a zerg I am also interested in knowing the weaknesses of this build.
Last, I personally thing that maybe you should drone scout with this build. Not sure when though. I dont think spanishiwa mentioned it on 12 weeks with the pros. This isn't about playing against spanishiwa, this is about playing against his build
True, I doubt pre-GM players even have that sort of game sense.
Most of a time, the sacced overlord dies with proper stalker placement anyways (4 lings won't break a choked zealot).
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his build is actually quite easy to execute...it's how i started playing zerg sort of mentality-wise (it relies on good game sense and ability to understand tells as in poker)
it's common sense to put down hatches as early as possible (they produce units)
common sense to do only drones but have enough larvae regen speed to morph an army
queens and spine crawlers and zerglings can handle small armies... (allow drones to keep mining)
the scary part about zerg is that there is a critical timing when they can start vastly out-droning their opponents... instead of being able to build 1 scv or probe in 20 secs...once they get to 16 drones they start being able to make about 5 drones every 20 sec...that's equivalent to the rate of 5 command centers >.>
as long as you have a mobile force that can destroy a hatch in 10 secs...you win. the strength in the spanishwa's build is not really the queens/static defenses (they kinda suck)...it's that the drones can be replenished fast with such a high income (making loss of 5 drones to be not a big deal as long as you can replenish to 30 drones immediately)...it's also the fact that zerg buildings are pretty hard to kill...in fact it's not really about the drone kill but if you can keep spanishwa from mining... that's very significant
conclusion: decrease the Z's mining time, when you have enough forces immediately snipe down the hatches and pool. (those take 100 secs to build while a drone takes 20)
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On April 17 2011 16:21 Zelniq wrote:
yes if you see that opener as P you harass with stalkers, get a very quick 2nd followed by a fast 3rd, low sentries. he has almost no idea what youre doing until overseer. just play very greedy/tech heavy as there's no threat of any attack whatsoever for quite a while, until his delayed lair tech comes. Maybe followup with blink stalkers to hold my 3 bases easier, but really many tech choices would work fine, just make sure you have some well placed cannons/building walls as well. Watch out for those drops/nydus harassments. You should be in a really good position if you managed to secure your 3rd without taking much damage, and early on your harass + greediness will force him to get a couple extra queens/spines putting him in the dark while getting your econ and tech/production up freely and quickly,
Sorry, but I don't understand how you can hope to hide an expansion, much less two from a zerg player. All the zerg player needs to do is position the overlords and get a pair of lings. Zerg may have a lot of trouble scouting tech and bases. But there is no way to keep expansions secret from any decent zerg.
This is one of the main strenghts of the build: it holds pretty much anything a one basing opponent can do (thus making up for the trouble zerg has scouting into bases), and the only thing your really need to look for is expansions, which is trivial. You respond by either expanding yourself, or going high aggression when your opponent does it greedily.
I did a version of this late gas queen/spine style from the very beginning. The reason you get away with this is, that zerg doesn't need early map control, because they can't do anything with it anyway. You only make drones and queens and a pair of slow scouting zerglings to check for expansions.
The usual logic that you must defend with units, because then you can apply counter pressure and build up your army already doesn't apply to zerg. Early game they can't apply counter pressure because of walls and force fields. The only thing those early zerglings are good for is defense and scouting and eating into your drone count. The scouting is just as well done by overlords and just a pair of lings. And defensively spines and queens are much more effective and efficient economically.
And also, zerg have larva. They don't need to slowly build up an army over time. They do it in bulk based on scouting information.
Using units, especially zerglings, for early defense is wasting larva. Nothing more.
Using spines and queens means you gear up strong economy, and those spines still help you out in the later stages by protecting against harass.
So how do you engage the build?
Primarily with tech and preventing the zerg from becoming to greedy. Prevent and delay expansions, do light low risk harass and tech up heavily in the time. Don't bother with too many low tier units, go straight to the high tier death ball cutting all corners.
Protoss can get DT to prevent expansions and Phoenix/Voidray to prevent the DTs from being detected. Or just place pylons to block hatches. Make it hard for zerg to expand.
Terran can deny expansions very well with marine hellion and in a lot of maps just with a few well placed tanks. Nukes are also very good here, because of the many static defences. Quite possible to kill queens and overlords, and definite to kill larva and eggs. Hunt overlords and overseers.
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What if even you delay the expo for an extended amount of time, he drones up to 50 behind it. Usually I play greedy and get 2-gate expand with +2 Gates 1 Forge and a Robo after, and I was trying to do drop play with forcefielding so the lings can't get in.
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On June 01 2011 08:04 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 16:21 Zelniq wrote:
yes if you see that opener as P you harass with stalkers, get a very quick 2nd followed by a fast 3rd, low sentries. he has almost no idea what youre doing until overseer. just play very greedy/tech heavy as there's no threat of any attack whatsoever for quite a while, until his delayed lair tech comes. Maybe followup with blink stalkers to hold my 3 bases easier, but really many tech choices would work fine, just make sure you have some well placed cannons/building walls as well. Watch out for those drops/nydus harassments. You should be in a really good position if you managed to secure your 3rd without taking much damage, and early on your harass + greediness will force him to get a couple extra queens/spines putting him in the dark while getting your econ and tech/production up freely and quickly, Sorry, but I don't understand how you can hope to hide an expansion, much less two from a zerg player. All the zerg player needs to do is position the overlords and get a pair of lings. Zerg may have a lot of trouble scouting tech and bases. But there is no way to keep expansions secret from any decent zerg.
What are you talking about, why would you need to hide an expo? Zelniq is just saying to expand yourself, and then grab a quick third and cannon it up. He's saying grab your nat off 1 gate rather than off the standard 3 gate. This should happen before zerg reach the 40drone mark, and alot sooner than when speed kicks in (according to spanishiwa - second 100gas).
The reason you get speed early is to gain map control and PREVENT Toss from taking a quick 3rd. Or just play really greedy. It's the 'threat' of speedlings + roach all-in that keeps P honest.
While I think that spanishiwa's BO is bad with the whole skipping gas thing, the underlying concept of focusing on economy and then army is a good one. It also seems most pros already arrived at this conclusion way before spanishiwa build became popular. If you watch most games, you'll see Top Zerg pull drones out of gas after getting speed and focusing on droning and skipping crawlers.
Essentially, the BO that spanishiwa gave us, ensures that the Z reaches the mid-game. This is the problem most Z's have atm with the myriad 1-base builds around. YOu're going to be saying to the P with your build, that "i'll reach the mid-game", so then it's up to the P/T to recognize the build and take advantage of it.
The Build also has very tell-tale signs with the late gas. You're not going to chase away the probe/scv until lings pop, and if you got no gas then, P can pressure with stalker instead of building sentries while T can just rally the marines in to force those spines and then not commit. You got no way of pressuring back the subsequent expo.
I believe Darkforce also said he tinkered with this style way back in beta and didn't get satisfactory results with it as have many top zergs. I've done it myself back in beta for a while, but Spines are justs crap with their long build time, not at all like the sunkens morphs back in bw.
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EPT
