EPTSecondly you can outexpand him easily as he will be turtling.
[D] Is there a way to beat Spanishiwa's build? (P) - Page 12
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
Secondly you can outexpand him easily as he will be turtling. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On May 24 2011 22:45 Olsson wrote: In my opinion Spanishiwas build is weak. Any kind of aggression to deny his third will make him go far behind, since he has no map control and no mobile units but queens to get his third he is screwed if you can deny that third. Secondly you can outexpand him easily as he will be turtling. Everyone is saying "out-expand" without thinking about what it means in the midgame. Yes, spanishiwas style doesn't allow for aggression the first ~8-9 minutes, but after that it focusses on drops, burrowed infestor harass and nydus worms. Expanding requires you to protect more area and gives the Zerg more room to harass. I don't know how often i won a game because i dropped a few banelings into the opponents mineral lines and fungaled his mineral lines, dropped units into his main while running my main army into his third, etc. More expansions = more area = more vulnerable to harass. Spanishiwa Style = Harass style = Good vs multiple expansions. I think single expansion with tech is a far better way to go. | ||
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
On May 24 2011 22:45 Olsson wrote: In my opinion Spanishiwas build is weak. Any kind of aggression to deny his third will make him go far behind, since he has no map control and no mobile units but queens to get his third he is screwed if you can deny that third. Secondly you can outexpand him easily as he will be turtling. I don't know about other Zergs but I tend to go for heavy aggression before my 3rd vs. Protoss at least. Normal Spanishiwa gas timings(~40-47 supply), drone up and do everything in the matchup as expected. at 100% Lair -> Overlord Drop, Overlord Speed and Overseer scout. Baneling nest when you can afford. Pure Zergling, no drones unless you took economical damage, no nothing. Pure Ling. When drop tech is near complete, morph Banelings, load into Overlords and get a Spire. ~11:30-or-something-like-that Ling/Overlord/Baneling timing attack while your Spire is completing. Get a 3rd unless you can't afford making Mutalisks with all your gas when your Spire is done. Drop Banelings on his army, run Lings in and stuff. Get Mutas, harass with them and get a 4th if you can. You also should be getting a Roach Warren just in case and should be droning up if he isn't timing pushing you to counter Mutas, which shouldn't happen if you did well enough with your banedrop. Versus Protoss only as my ZvZ tends to be a bit more passive and ZvT I don't really know shit about. I really doubt you can out-expand a Zerg at that point. At least in my experience I have killed a fast-3rd Protoss by dropping his army with Banelings, getting Mutas and more Lings to snipe his 3rd while my Mutas keep him busy. Then again, I might be wrong and am open for suggestions about my strategy, or something against my strategy. It only helps me to know what beats this. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Vlanun
Portugal4 Posts
At least that has been my experience. You may argue that Z can easily take a third, but in most maps, the third is too far to allow a Forge FE harassing toss. Toss can macro faster with a Forge FE, and keep harassing. At least its what has been happening to me as Z. | ||
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sWs
United States409 Posts
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lasershark
United States49 Posts
If the zerg does not get early speed pressure with your first zealot and stalker to kill some drones and lings (defend home with sentries). If he does get speed harrass his lings at home with your stalker and wait for hallucination. I find that getting hallucination right after wg and cb it is very effective because it is important to deny the zerg's third and scout for any aggresssion. Once you get hallucination move out right away and constantly scout with hallucinated pheonixes for units and a possible third. Stay against walls at all times and make your way to his choke/ramp of his natural. Camp his ramp with forcefields to deny his third as long as possible and not let him out of his base (natural). While you are doing this add a twilight council for charge and later on blink. Make sure you are constantly cb your attack upgrades at your forge. Once your twilight council is done build a templar archives for high templar so you can morph them into archons. Also add on around 4 more gateways. After you've delayed his third long enough retreat safely. Once you have some archons, zealots with charge, stalkers (with blink on the way), and +2 attack move out for some non stop pressure. He should barely have his third up by now. Go straight to his third base and let your archons tank all the fungals and lings while your zealots and stalkers completely rape his third. If you ever get a chance blink your stalkers to snipe his infestors but make sure they are never too close together. Make sure as your are going to attack build multiple pylons along the way to reinforce your army quickly. It is also a good idea to build a third base while you are attacking. I will gladly post replays of myself beating 1100-1300 masters zergs with this strategy but I currently keep getting an error when I try to upload to SC2Replayed.com. (any help with this? :D) | ||
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Spec
Taiwan931 Posts
I've messed around with the build and I believe that the ladder protoss are catching up. They usually get a fast blink to avoid being crushed by baneling drops then build up the deathball. On May 24 2011 23:24 Alejandrisha wrote: There must be a lot of glaring weaknesses to it, as I have never seen a zerg open this way against me. Either zergs I play are too set in their ways or this build isn't catching on everywhere at once. I tend to think that because this style leads to a long macro game, it requires tremendous game sense to execute. It's exceedingly hard to learn as most things comes by experience. Also air openings are getting popular and those compositions are not what ling baneling army first built for. TLDR: I believe that Spanishiwa style is just an idea that you get econ safely before everything, too many other important later factors need be discussed specifically. | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On May 25 2011 13:59 Spec wrote: I'm a masters Zerg and I feel that the so called "spanishiwa style" is simply a style/idea and not a "build". It just means that the Zerg delays gas for a full economy in the opening. Any follow up should be discussed separately and specifically. Going "spanishiwa" doesn't 100% mean you must go baneling drops or infestor-ultra or broodlord-queens. I've messed around with the build and I believe that the ladder protoss are catching up. They usually get a fast blink to avoid being crushed by baneling drops then build up the deathball. I tend to think that because this style leads to a long macro game, it requires tremendous game sense to execute. It's exceedingly hard to learn as most things comes by experience. Also air openings are getting popular and those compositions are not what ling baneling army first built for. TLDR: I believe that Spanishiwa style is just an idea that you get econ safely before everything, too many other important later factors need be discussed specifically. I agree, it's an opening an a basic idea with a strong follow-up suggestion (mass-harass style), but it is in no way fixed enough that a specific tactic can always beat it. It depends a lot on scouting and adaption. However, in diamond most protoss seem to either win with a massive attack before 10 minutes or screw up their macro in a longer game, so if i survive the first 10 minutes, i win in about 90% of the ZvPs, even if their early push put me far behind. With the Infestors i use for harass anyways, even the dreaded deathball isn't that scary anymore. This is why i think Spanishiwas ideas for a safe opening are especially important in all leagues below masters, though i'm convinced they are still valid in masters as well. Below Masters players are also not that good at adapting, so they cannot counter the spanishiwa style that well, which is why the basic strategy with ling/bling/infestor into infestor/ultra often works. Masters and above scout properly and have a good game sense, which allows for a lot of adapations on both sides, so the opening becomes just a template and can turn into a lot of different strategies on both sides. Spanishiwa shows often enough that he can beat grandmasters players with this opening, so it's just stupid to say that "it doesn't work if the opponent scouts it". His opponents know what style he uses just by reading his name on the loading screen and he often enough still wins. Every style has weaknesses and strengths. | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On May 25 2011 01:39 StephenS wrote: This might work against some delayed gas builds, but Spanishiwa's opening will have 6-8 queens to defend anyway (especially if you are staying on 1 base), and going for a quick stargate is probably the worst thing you can do against it. I've had great success with the Spanishiwa opening and then transitioning into ling/bling/infestor --> ultra. I like to punish no gas, or gas delayed builds by opening vrs. I make sure he scouts my starport thoguh, and ill tell you why. He will start making queens, spores, and lots of drones. This is perfect because as I chrono out my vrs(I like to get 3, harass with them, make sure not to lose any) I get 3 more gates, and start warping in a lot of stalkers. By the time my 3 vrs are on the field I will have a pretty large fourgate army(keep this hidden) and be able to move across the map and roll him. I engage directly with my voids above stalker zealot. If he doesn't have a lot of roaches or lings (almost never does) then I target down the 5-6 queens with stalkers, back off my ground army and let my voids punish him. I then continue to warp in more stalkers, until I'm sure I can't lose and just a move his base. This is an all in build, and I've had much sucess with it on the ladder. I'm a 900+ masters toss What has given me the most trouble is when Protoss goes for a zealot/archon/templar mix and quickly expands while putting multiple cannons in each mineral line. It's impossible to do damage with bling drops if the Protoss has good reaction times and 2-3 cannons in each mineral line. The cannons also make ling run-bys pretty pointless (unless you are planning on running by with a LOT of lings), so harassment of the Protoss 3rd is pretty hard. Once Protoss has a fast 3rd, they can macro up a huge army really quickly and it's quite difficult to deal with. | ||
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Nolot
United Kingdom271 Posts
On May 25 2011 12:29 lasershark wrote: Hi. I'm a high masters protoss player and I have encountered this build many times on the ladder. The most effective way to defeat this style is to open with a standard 3 gate expand. If the zerg does not get early speed pressure with your first zealot and stalker to kill some drones and lings (defend home with sentries). If he does get speed harrass his lings at home with your stalker and wait for hallucination. I find that getting hallucination right after wg and cb it is very effective because it is important to deny the zerg's third and scout for any aggresssion. Once you get hallucination move out right away and constantly scout with hallucinated pheonixes for units and a possible third. Stay against walls at all times and make your way to his choke/ramp of his natural. Camp his ramp with forcefields to deny his third as long as possible and not let him out of his base (natural). While you are doing this add a twilight council for charge and later on blink. Make sure you are constantly cb your attack upgrades at your forge. Once your twilight council is done build a templar archives for high templar so you can morph them into archons. Also add on around 4 more gateways. After you've delayed his third long enough retreat safely. Once you have some archons, zealots with charge, stalkers (with blink on the way), and +2 attack move out for some non stop pressure. He should barely have his third up by now. Go straight to his third base and let your archons tank all the fungals and lings while your zealots and stalkers completely rape his third. If you ever get a chance blink your stalkers to snipe his infestors but make sure they are never too close together. Make sure as your are going to attack build multiple pylons along the way to reinforce your army quickly. It is also a good idea to build a third base while you are attacking. I will gladly post replays of myself beating 1100-1300 masters zergs with this strategy but I currently keep getting an error when I try to upload to SC2Replayed.com. (any help with this? :D) Try making a .zip file and upload it at http://drop.sc works for me and it's very easy | ||
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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
On May 24 2011 23:28 Vlanun wrote: I was under the impression that Forge FE would beat Spanishiwa's build. At least that has been my experience. You may argue that Z can easily take a third, but in most maps, the third is too far to allow a Forge FE harassing toss. Toss can macro faster with a Forge FE, and keep harassing. At least its what has been happening to me as Z. Yeah a FFE or nexus first will counter Spanishiwa pretty hard. With FFE he can deliver significant damage with cannoning your natural and with nexus first he's ahead on economy. The basic premise of Spanishiwa is to arrive in the midgame extreemely fast with a solid economic lead. If that is not the case you're left with two-base late econ and a bunch of useless semi-static defenses. | ||
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TheAsian784
United States12 Posts
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
This is just a zerg opening, you dont "beat" an opening unless you want to do a risky all in that relies on not being detected. | ||
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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On May 25 2011 19:08 Kraelog wrote: Well it beats 99% of all Protoss onebase strategy's But it lets you FE to your heart's content. You can get away with nexus first on maps with reasonable naturals, and probably someone could come up with some 1 or 2gate FE specifically tailored to the spanishiwa opening on more open maps - something to take map control (because stalkers do quite fine vs slowlings) I could imagine that a 1gas 2gate FE would be viable if the zerg still has no gas when his pool is done (an easily scoutable thing) and build a couple stalkers and a nexus, and start roaming around the zerg's natural being all sharky. A bit of stalker pressure to make sure he actually builds those spines can keep the zerg honest, too. Don't need to commit anything at all. Take advantage of the fact that your stalkers have map control, I know it's a weird thing to have in PVZ. If you can get to the midgame on even (or better, if your greed paid off) footing, then you're just up against a pretty much standard zerg (though likely one who is going banelings instead of roaches if he's still doing spanishiwa style) at that point - it doesn't have much of anything to do with the gasless opening anymore. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
Save up for 6 dark templars and the target priority goes lair, evo chamber, roach warren, spawning pool, queens, drones. Forces the zerg to remake detection and delays infestor/nydus/OL drop harass. Take your third and fourth, each with 3-5 cannons. After the 6 dt's keep throwing in 2-4 DT's with production cycles to turn into archons. Research charge, get upgrades, use 1-2 regular dt's to harass with. Wait for 4-5 archons, attack, win :D | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
To the person above, I guess DTs would be a viable option if the Shrine does not scouted. You could do a lot of harassment to the third on some maps, such as Xel' Caverns and Crossfire. | ||
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
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