EPT[D] Is there a way to beat Spanishiwa's build? (P) - Page 10
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tetramtroll
France18 Posts
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Inex
Bulgaria443 Posts
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n0btozz
Iceland115 Posts
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
Early cannon rushes (blocking the expo is almost an insta loss if they know how to follow up, especially if you are forced to get early roaches etc) The best way to beat this build is to think about its weaknesses. He cannot apply early pressure and he cannot expand to his 3rd any time soon. So that means as protoss you want to take a really fast third and get a huge economic lead. By delaying his expo and making sure that he DOESN'T go roaches (to defend or w/e). So kinda letting him have his build but with supervision. any gateway play is terrible against this build (3gate expo 4gate 6gate all-in etc etc) because they have spines and 2 bases up way before you get there. Doing a heavy air play is not advisable as the mass queens plays against you, if you can successfully get 3 bases I suggest if you want to do air, to get like 2 voidrays and mass pheonix and pick up any AA he has. Pheonix are like sentries, they aren't for damage they are for containment. I suggest going Templar tech and pheonix voidray as your unit comp, clean up with gateway units. Templar tech can be used for aggressive harassment forcing detection, in which can be in the form of spores so be very cautious with pheonix as harassment. When in engagement against typical Spanishiwa compositions (Ultra Queen, Broodlord Queen, Roach Hydra Broodlord, Infestor Roach, Zergling Broodlord infestor, typically you don't see muta play but it can happen so be very aware it shouldn't be a problem if oyu are going pheonix.) You want to make sure you are picking up damage dealers with your pheonix so if he is going ultra queen, pick up the queens and use Feedback, then you should premake a lot of archons, also be smart about your play, if you have 3 bases don't be hesitant to get immortals as well. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:11 n0btozz wrote: I´ve found out that stargate openings work fine against this, get the critical 7-8 phoenix´s and you are in great shape, pick off some drones/queens, expand behind it, the phoenixes will rule all for some time, picking off overlords, denying scouting, and really playing boss until spore crawlers are up everywhere, and then they can still deny scouting/keep map control, and maybe pick off drones if the zerg hasn´t made 2 spore crawlers at every base. If you have 8 Phoenix, you can tank a few Spore hits and still snipe Drones, Queens, and Ovies. | ||
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noelsusman
United States19 Posts
Basically, in my eyes this build's major weakness is the inability to pressure a greedy third base from the protoss. Just get some cannons down to secure it and you should be ahead economically. Just make sure you keep a watchful eye out for baneling drops on your mineral line. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:11 n0btozz wrote: I´ve found out that stargate openings work fine against this, get the critical 7-8 phoenix´s and you are in great shape, pick off some drones/queens, expand behind it, the phoenixes will rule all for some time, picking off overlords, denying scouting, and really playing boss until spore crawlers are up everywhere, and then they can still deny scouting/keep map control, and maybe pick off drones if the zerg hasn´t made 2 spore crawlers at every base. They really shouldn't work, at least not if we're talking about 1 base Stargate (which is what an opening is). Lesser Zerg players may collapse or panic under Phoenix pressure, but it's really way less dangerous than it looks and most Zerg builds can just take the losses and power through it and/or just kill you. Especially a build that relies on getting many Queens and spreading creep early on should be able to shut it down no problem. You just won't be able to keep up with all the money you invested in teching and getting Phoenix up, also you can't safely expand behind it because you won't have the economy for a substantial ground force and/or Cannons to defend it. By the time you get the number of Phoenix you want off of 1 base, he'll be on 3 bases and you'll be so far behind in everything else. Stargate play after Nexus > Forge is much more viable IMO. You can scout and deny Nydus and drops, effectively shutting down all the harassment options Spanishiwa normally does. This way you get your natural up quickly and safely, and your third is a lot easier to take as well on most maps, and there's really not much the Zerg can do about it. Actually that's almost like Brood War style PvZ. =P | ||
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CorpseBoy
1 Post
In terms of the early game, however, I've found a strategy which works pretty well. Try a delayed cannon in their expansion whilst Forge expanding, or going for a really quick Zealot-Cannon rush (e.g. 10 gate 12 forge) to try and establish a beachhead in their expansion and restrict their ability to take that early defensive economic lead while pulling ahead. This forces them to abandon macro-style gameplay and make units to bust down your forces before they can expand. In doing so, you essentially force the Zerg into 'standard' play - Roaches, Zerglings and other early game units. It's then important to take advantage of your economic lead and hit them before they hit the powerful (essentially invincible) Tier 3 units. I think it's important not to consider the build as a rigid structure but as a broader approach that takes advantage of the strengths of Zerg special abilities. Another few tips and techniques - I think it's important to change up the approach to harassment and indirect combat. A lot of players will be able to bust through Zerg defenses - and then spend ages targeting useless buildings and units, like Drones and Extractors. While under conventional play this would be useful, the point of the Icefisher build is to create such a strong economic lead that they can create a constant supply of late-game. Instead, try using harassment techniques to target down essential tech buildings - Lairs, Hatcheries, Infestation pits, Spires - and impair their ability to produce these ridiculously powerful units. Also another thing to keep in mind is trying to catch Queens before they reach a ridiculous mass - again, Transfuse probably needs a bit of fixing, but until that happens you'll just have to be constantly keeping the Queen count low. In regards to countering Nydus worms - I genuinely just don't know. It's very difficult to deal with instant troop transport combined with creeping. Spanishiwa often uses Nydus worms as a distraction and a means of bypassing a player's strong frontal defense - the key solution, then, should be good building placement to keep vision in all parts of your base and a constantly mobile army to apply pressure and stop the Zerg macro-machine from building up too much steam to handle. Mass Warp Gate also seems to be a viable strategy as Protoss - not actually to build an army but to produce quick defenses and nullify incoming Nydus worms. As for main unit composition, I think it's important to avoid "conventional" builds - again, it varies depending on how the Zerg is playing the match out, but generally Spanishiwa fast techs to Infestor/Queen/BL/Ultra heavy compositions with relatively small Hydra/roach/zergling numbers. Therefore, I think it's best to go for Templar tech into possibly Robo for Colossus/Immortals, using HT to snipe Infestors and Queens and then turning them into Archons. It might also help to go for DTs depending on situation just to apply pretty, keep them on their toes, and also for extra Archons. Best idea is to avoid any heavy Gateway compositions or Colossus-heavy armies - Spanishiwa's ground units hard counter standard Gateway tech, and Infestors are very effective against massing Massive units. Again, it's most effective to try and pressure them in the early game and shut down their tech, than trying to dish it out in a late game maxed army battle. | ||
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dakor
1 Post
spanishiwa won't lose to some lame cheese just like that, but players like me unfortunately will XD | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
On April 22 2011 03:12 tehemperorer wrote: A fast DT rush won't be countered by spores since they come at a time where you can only really afford to have 1 or 2, and they die in about 5 seconds to 3 DTs, not allowing you time to react and do enough DPS to kill 3 dts. Spore does counter both, but DTs can eliminate the spore and spread out and still be effective, while pheonixes cannot. Also, if you pull back your dts, you can either deny the zerg 3rd while you take your second, or pull back to xform into 1-2archons for defense. Since you have doubled gas early, you will have mostly zeal/sentry at your base, and can easily defend your expansion/deny theirs because: 1. lings melt to zeal/sentry/archon (Ice Fisher build is incapable of putting on pressure to many builds as people have stated before) 2. No overseer/Late overseer means no 3rd/late 3rd for Zerg player. Protoss can even double expand behind DTs depending on how the game went Start watching at 15:45: http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/284076111 After watching that it definitely looked counterable to me. That 2 Zealots + 1 Stalker is a definite red flag to DT or Stargate tech. Also did that guy even use Transfuse on those Spores? The video is kinda bad and its hard to tell exactly what is happening. I could not tell for certain but was that 3 Queens or 4? Also my Overlord positioning is different from that guys. I like to scout into the mineral patches to get a read on how much gas was mined then try to find any tech. Something like 700 gas mined and no gas heavy units would be tip off at the 6 minute mark. In addition to this if that Toss player's geyser was taken it would have severely delayed his DT tech. I am not sure that Zerg even scouted that Toss player at all. For all he knew he could have been doing a 1 gas 4 gate. | ||
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Calvin12
United States7 Posts
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NoScary
United States151 Posts
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
On May 10 2011 17:18 dakor wrote: I know it's not much, coming from a Z player but I have tried the spanishiwa build, and I can tell you, this build is so free and changeable, that's why Spanishiwa himself is so strong with that build, cuz he's a pro and he control it perfectly, but the most of us who trying to learn it won't do as well, so actually almost everything between the short and mid game can work, but it changes for every player. spanishiwa won't lose to some lame cheese just like that, but players like me unfortunately will XD Whenever I played this build and lose, my P opponents message me after "What were you doing???" because they just walk over me. It's tough to hit all the transitions properly without experience. | ||
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Sanctimonius
United Kingdom861 Posts
 But I agree, there is a point you reach when you can just send wave after wave at the enemy and destroy them, and there really is little they can do about it. Which is why I like this build. To me that's what zerg should be about - wave after wave of deathliness. | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
I mean i could post a replay and obviously anyone would beable to point out a dozen problems im only in high plat low diamond but it shouldnt mean that i am absolutely hopeless against a build (never won against it if the player actually did the build properly) when i am on a plat/ diamond level in the other 2 matchups. Obviously its hard for me to say anything about balance playing at this level, but im suprised so many zergs complain about protoss, between the tournament results ive seen recently and my own experiences zergs seem to be doing increasingly well against protoss in the past month or 2. Honestly if you look at statistics for alot of tournaments in zvp usually z is winning more (if only by slightly ) these days. I mean sure if a zerg goes roach hydra corrupter every protoss knows how to deal with that, but these new builds that are coming out are deadly. | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On May 11 2011 01:55 INFDexter wrote: IdrA has stated that if the protoss plays economically and forces a bunch of queens, Zerg is way behind heading into the mid game. I haven't played against this style of protoss when i have used spanish's build, but it seems like the protoss can take a 2nd pretty fast and an all but uncontested third. Zerg should respond to that by using drops and nydus, but strong 3 base timings can seriously mess zerg up. meh i wouldnt really trust idra at least in this specific topic, he says the build sucks but uses quite often these days and has been pummeling protoss with it. He has said its modified, but it looks to be essentially the same thing. | ||
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Smeik
Germany32 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Here is what was troubling me: vs P: -) ForgeFirst = BO loss, -) early stalker pressure against open expansions, were P just goes around my first spines and then I lose a lot of speedlings and have to build more spines -) blink 4gate without speed is hard to hold with only statics -) fast expand + no gas --> P expands of 1gateway and you can't do anything against it vs T: -) 1base tank/marine allin -) reactored hellions can be tough -) early drops can be tough vs Z (I really don't think it is viable in this MU on high level): -) just mirror it with less queens and spines -) early speedling aggro/runnbys etc. -) instantly drop a 3rd Edit: theorycrafting: -) usually Zerg takes his 4gas, spanishiwas style is followed up by a lair/speed/2*evo chamber, so the focus of this build is on the ground -) A spire is unlikley, due to the time until you get it, and considering your tech is already delayed. -) if you're not going heavy air early, it is unlikely to see hydras in PvZ -) he shouldn't have a lot of scouting information, so you should be able to pull of a fast expo + tech --> maybe 2base fast carrier could work. (no corruptor, late hydras+they are not really costefficient vs carriers, great vs statics) | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
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