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On April 26 2011 18:46 KarlSpaat wrote:As Terran u can make a 4-7 Rax allin and kill him, cause he has no Banes or Roaches. Look at http://www.terransc.blogspot.com/ for further informations. I asked a friend to do Spanishiwas build and kicked his but with my allins.
you still scout with the spanishiwa build, if you see a 4-7 rax all in you build more queens and spines and should be fine.
I believe the best way to deal with the build is to take an early third and macro up while using drop play and other harrasses. Zerg cannot put any pressure out at all for quite a while, and by then you should be able to defend three bases.
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This might sound crazy, but.... a mothership rush would work. Cloaks all of your units, and bypasses all of the spine crawlers. can also save for vortex. use 3/4 stalkers and focus down any detection.
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Why do you think a mothership rush would work? He wouldn't even have to change his build when he scouted it, pumping queens and lings would work fine.
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I think it would work, like I said, because you could mass recall stalkers into his base, bypassing the spine crawlers, and then snipe any detection he has with them. this means overseers or spore crawlers. This if course would depend on how fast you get get a mothership with that many units. I don't know the timings for that because I don't mothership more than once in a blue moon and certainly not with a particular build order in mind.
But it's worth thinking about- DTs are very good against spanishiwa's build, regardless of what he says about them. So your entire army having cloak and warping into his main is pretty good...as well as the mothership itself being pretty beefy that early in the game against zerg.
Blink stalkers themselves wont work very well because he'll have speedlings. but invisible stalkers might
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There's also the possibility of doing a 5gate / stargate all in with a mothership, bring a couple of phoenixes with to lift queens while you snipe detection, this would entail expoing first but youd have to get the timing down due to the heavy harass that comes right after the spanishiwa build saturates
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I guess a ghost opening with cloak? just tossing some ideas out
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On April 30 2011 21:36 Borkbokbork wrote:
I think it would work, like I said, because you could mass recall stalkers into his base, bypassing the spine crawlers, and then snipe any detection he has with them. this means overseers or spore crawlers. This if course would depend on how fast you get get a mothership with that many units. I don't know the timings for that because I don't mothership more than once in a blue moon and certainly not with a particular build order in mind.
But it's worth thinking about- DTs are very good against spanishiwa's build, regardless of what he says about them. So your entire army having cloak and warping into his main is pretty good...as well as the mothership itself being pretty beefy that early in the game against zerg.
Blink stalkers themselves wont work very well because he'll have speedlings. but invisible stalkers might
The earliest you can get out a mothership reasonably is at about 7 minutes, and 7:30 is more reasonable if you don't want to rely on a scouting drone getting unlucky and not seeing your stargate go down. But the zerg will scout you about 2 minutes before that, and he will be able to scout your mothership rush at that time; you just can't get enough stalkers out to deny an overlord vision of your stargate. At that point, even if he doesn't suspect you're getting a mothership, he will start building lots of antiair.
And unfortunately for you, you need mass recall to do anything useful, so you won't be able to attack him until at least 40 seconds after the mothership pops. By 8 minutes, there will be plenty of queens to focus down the mothership; you might get some wins against greedy zergs, but you have to cut so many units to mothership rush that no zerg will scout you and decide they have to drone.
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I really agree with all the blue posts, I mean, the idea of quickly teching and expanding after low investiture harass seems like the most reasonable response to spanishiwa's style. Everyone knows that with same level players, a protoss one 3 base is stronger than a zerg on 3 base.
Also, using DTs to get map control in this situation is simply brilliant. If you happen to do damage with them, even better. I think templar tech is a good choice just because a lot of zergs have finally hopped on the infestor bandwagon, and adding some feedback into the mix never hurt.
Also, just out of curiousity, has anyone tried getting a few carriers out early in this situation? I know carriers are generally regarded as, "lol," but in a situation where you can tech quickly, it doesnt seem like the worst idea to add one or 2 to the deathball, not like their dps isn't the highest in the game.
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On April 30 2011 19:11 Borkbokbork wrote:
This might sound crazy, but.... a mothership rush would work. Cloaks all of your units, and bypasses all of the spine crawlers. can also save for vortex. use 3/4 stalkers and focus down any detection.
A toss did that to me. It doesn't work because you will scout his base with overlord/overseer before his mothership. You can also build some spore crawler + roach.
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On April 30 2011 22:16 Shucks! wrote:
Also, just out of curiousity, has anyone tried getting a few carriers out early in this situation? I know carriers are generally regarded as, "lol," but in a situation where you can tech quickly, it doesnt seem like the worst idea to add one or 2 to the deathball, not like their dps isn't the highest in the game.
I have, because carriers are just lolawesome. The problem is the same as in every other game; it costs ridiculous amounts of gas to get carriers out, so you can't simultaneously build a good stalker/colossus deathball, but carriers also take too long to make them your primary tech.
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You can take an early third for sure and that could roll this over.
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As terran all ive been doing against this is a rine hellion tank push off one base at 7 minute, 1 rax 2factory. Highly effective on most maps and well executed leap frogging with tanks crushes this before. Since he has delayed lair the only threat are speedlings / baneling or roaches. All which can be held by proper use of tank marine hellion
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Just play as you would play any PvZ
You just gotta be scouting what he is doing.
If you see too many spines for you to take down simply expand, cannon your expos and deny any additional expos ther zerg tries to throw down. If you can keep the Zerg on the same base count as you you will always be in a situation where you can kill him, simply because Protoss has the most cost efficient army if you have good FF placement.
And btw, if you ever let a Zerg get Ultras, you should either have enough stuff to roll him or you didn't punish him for greedy play.
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I've beaten this build about 2 months ago against Spanishiwa. Even after getting baneling bombed and losing like 30 probes. I used a mixture of Void Rays, High Templars, Zealots, a few Archons. The game was scrappy as hell. I managed to kite the overlords with storms and literally killed every overlord with storms.
Many protoss make the mistake of trying to confront the zerg army straight up. I've found that kiting the zerg army with storms is really effective.
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I've been facing this more and more and I like to get 1 or 2 voids out after expansion to deny the third. Since the Zerg is using speedlings for map control and so often end up taking a base that is really far from the rest of theirs (this seems to be part of the style, not sure if he actually mentions it in his description but he brought it up when interviewed by day 9). Voids bypass the whole problem as you can deny his third and if you get out a few phoenix as well, you can have a nice little mobile strike force which will force some kind of air as response. The more gas they are spending on air, the less they are spending on infestors/ultras/nydus exits.
I've also found collosi to be almost worthless against these compositions. stalker/sentry/HT seems much more effective, since the HTs do splash in a much wider area and are pretty much going to kill a zergling that runs into it. They also give you a good response if/when ultras come out since you can morph some archons to hold, although, I eventually like to get immortals since they are less gas intensive.
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Cannon rush is a pretty major weakness of a hatch first late pool build, dunno why its even a debate at this point lol
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i am only low-mid master but i haven't found this build hard to beat at all. maybe it's because i prefer fewer colossi later which is the build you want but i start off, typically, with
zeal/stalker poke (spinecrawler runby). nab a queen or 4-6 drones, force a few lings, well worth the price of a stalker/zealot. i place the 2nd/3rd gates + forge at my natural, and i dont think you need as many sentries with a better wall off so i get blink faster, as well as an expo. consider anyway that spanishiwa makes scouting harder
blink stalkers -> early, early 3rd -> deny his third -> macro up a bit -> both templar tech routes. he'll have spores, overseeers, usually not both, and if he does you've got archons to handle lings. the templar will fry lings / infestors. DO NOT over-extend yourself by teching too early, but usually blink stalkers gives you an opening to harass heavily.
scout incessantly, go robo if he's got ultras/banes and go voids if you scout broods. voids are probably safer... but you can't kill him outright
6 gate sometimes works, but typically the opponents are worse if they fall to it.
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I'm a mid Plat... so I've been encountering the slightly less perfectly executed version of this build going against Zerg.
What I've been doing is a Gateway-Robo-Gateway-Gateway. Delaying the warpgate reserach because I want that first 100 gas to be my robo (almost rushing to robo)
I go with a quick immortal and as many zealots as I can possibly churn out (also using chrono boost on zealot production). This first pressure either just outright kills the zerg or forces them to make way more zerglings instead of drones or make replacement spines. Immortals helps a lot on killing those spines while the zealots form a barrier around the immortal to protect it from zerglings.
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On April 30 2011 22:35 Amarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 22:16 Shucks! wrote:
Also, just out of curiousity, has anyone tried getting a few carriers out early in this situation? I know carriers are generally regarded as, "lol," but in a situation where you can tech quickly, it doesnt seem like the worst idea to add one or 2 to the deathball, not like their dps isn't the highest in the game. I have, because carriers are just lolawesome. The problem is the same as in every other game; it costs ridiculous amounts of gas to get carriers out, so you can't simultaneously build a good stalker/colossus deathball, but carriers also take too long to make them your primary tech.
Someone did this to me in a practice game last night, I was doing the Spanishiwa build. It didn't work for exactly the reason that you point out, there just wasn't really a whole lot on the ground. What happened was that I was able to deal with the ground fairly easily because the infestors uncloaked everything. There was a carrier and a mothership remaining which did clean up an expansion of mine but I was able to just counter attack with the extra lings/blings, even getting into the main. The attack did major damage because it wiped my expansion, but it seriously lacks mobility and takes so long to remass that it seems like you're in a really bad position if you can't just end the game immediately with the first big push.
I'm a high diamond Zerg, so I'm no pro, but here's what I think would make me most uncomfortable against P:
Expansion oriented build that sat back on cannons and blink stalks in order to deny mid game harassment while getting HT/archons with upgrades.
You can try early all-inish style and I'm sure they will work some of the time. But honestly I prefer to get hit with a 4 gate or something because I know that if I hold the early attack I'm basically going to win with a very simple mid game push 90% of the time. It actually takes a lot of pressure off and makes decision making easier.
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has anyone else tried 5 gate against this?
a fast and hard zealot sentry usually breaks this (2-4 crawlers plus queens) or lets u expand heavily (5 or more crawlers from someone who sees the heavy pressure comeing) i normally only see this from players who have played me b4 though so don't expect it
sometimes it feels like they can hold because of the first couple of transfuses but zealots burn through the queens/spine crawlers so fast they usually run out of energy very fast
the main thing is to know if he really is going this style a quick extractor / roach warren can hurt
the biggest concern i see about expanding or just kinda pushing at them is that baneling drops rip through your army and your economy very cost efficiently and infestors are also very cost efficient so they can stockpile min/gas while seeing what u do then react it takes
82 sec to turn all you larva to roaches
133 sec for mutas
140 for corruptors
135 for ultras
73 for hydras
75 sec for bainlings
234 sec for broodloards
banelings dont count zerglings build time why? because they can be made while making a banelings nest
and you can make corruptors while making a greater spire
(assuming u have hive for the tech for all the above its longer for broods/ ultras if u dont)
building and morphing of larva times added together now i think a few fungals can stall that long if you had to on most maps (though the broods might need to be started already)
zerg is the most reactionary of all the races this build is designed to hold most early pressure using the most cost effective units the race can put out to trade armys with your opponent or damage there economy while stockpiling resources to abuse that fact
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EPT
