EPTWith the initial 2-3 (preferably 3) instead of attempting drone kills/spore crawler sniping, push all the DTs onto the spawning pool (assuming the pool is out of range of the mineral line detection). If you get the pool down, there's a timing window in which no new lings/spines can be made, and you push with your zealots.
[D] Is there a way to beat Spanishiwa's build? (P) - Page 11
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lawls544
United States36 Posts
With the initial 2-3 (preferably 3) instead of attempting drone kills/spore crawler sniping, push all the DTs onto the spawning pool (assuming the pool is out of range of the mineral line detection). If you get the pool down, there's a timing window in which no new lings/spines can be made, and you push with your zealots. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On May 18 2011 15:37 lawls544 wrote: I played a PvZ earlier that made me think about Spanishiwa's build. DT rush, while dumping minerals into mainly zealots. With the initial 2-3 (preferably 3) instead of attempting drone kills/spore crawler sniping, push all the DTs onto the spawning pool (assuming the pool is out of range of the mineral line detection). If you get the pool down, there's a timing window in which no new lings/spines can be made, and you push with your zealots. If you manage to kill the spawning pool, you could have done anything with the DTs and won the game. The Zerg will have at least 2 queens ready to transfuse and his lair will finish around the time your DTs arrive (if you wait for 3), that means he can immedatly morph an overseer and defend... if he didn't build spore crawlers anyways because every Protoss these days seems to do DTs vs gasless expand. With the new patch, moving spore crawlers takes just very little time, far too little to kill the spawning pool. A zealot heavy attack is quite strong however, unless the Zerg went banelings or roaches. Most Zerg will have just Lings, and as everyone knows, Zealots rip through lings in seconds and take reduced damage from spine crawlers. | ||
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StOrmScAr
Italy5 Posts
I think the answer is to put some pressure so u force him into producing lings/roaches early on so he can't drone as much...some warp prism drops harass can be quite effective too..all that while you also FE...and then you see as you go in the midgame..the thing is to not let him drone like crazy, otherwise his advantage becomes too huge...also try to go for a heavier lots with upgrades combination, as he will usually have mass lings... hope it helped:D | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
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yiodee
United States137 Posts
You are also ignoring the fact that zerg will have 4 queens + transfusion and even if you blink past the spine crawlers he can block the ramp and attack with lings. Or he can kill the warp prism and then deal with zealots + anything else you dropped. Plus, Zerg probably saw the robo with the overlord and prepared for your gimmicks. This opening is just an opening like any other; but you can't beat a good zerg's game sense. That said, please re-think your answers and keep the discussion because as a zerg I am also interested in knowing the weaknesses of this build. Last, I personally thing that maybe you should drone scout with this build. Not sure when though. I dont think spanishiwa mentioned it on 12 weeks with the pros. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
 . The reason why I say drop is good because it completely avoids the spine crawlers, this is WHY I don't use this build against terran because of drop harass and how easy it is for terran to tech towards.Anyways, why not try warp prism harass? 3 gate expand into robo, get observer to check him out then get a warp prism and drop in some units to harass him with. Keep your units alive too, when they are in danger, retreat to the warp prism and try a different angle. You can gain map control and possibly even get a fast 3rd with some cannon defense. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
Anyways, I'm sure there are ways for the zerg to solve this and react properly, but there you have it, a protoss way to solidly beat the spanishiwa style as written. | ||
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YarNhoj
United States69 Posts
I like to push once with colossus, +1+1, and range, so that I can secure my third and then start double robos for immortals as the roaches/ultras can start to pile up around this time. I would advise engaging Z every so often, after you have range, just to force him to build units as opposed to drones. I switch to immortal production soon after taking my third at which point I'm hoping to still have 2-4 colossus. The weakness's I can see in this build is that Z has very few harassment options until later in the game at which point P can be on three bases, P's standard army compositions does extremely well through the mid-game, and that, like the protoss death ball, the zerg has to keep a lot of his units together. (Lings are not good by themselves.) To that end I have been trying to incorporate zealot harass via warp prisms while poking at the front with my standard mix. | ||
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rexob
Sweden202 Posts
stargate/FE -> FE/stargate. get phoenixes if it is a big map and harass, VR to deny third and def if it is not so big map. while i fly around for stray overlords i get coloussus up to counter his (hopefully) hydras. with colussous i get third up and start putting on preassure, killing his extra expos and mostly move around, tearing at his army with forcefields while macroing up 200 and going in for the kill with blink if he gets the time to get broodlords. vs Spanishiwa's build iv'e found out that: first of all - it is very hard to recognize it as early as it is needed. with the queens, it is very hard to harass with phoenix and impossible when he gets infestors. also hard to kill third with VR since if you know he can move in another queen it's hardly worth trying to take out one and have a voulnrable VR so your stargate harass is pretty much useless. blink i also find too hard to pull of as speedlings kills stalkers fast. with upgrades even faster. with fungal, it's a donation. high tier late game air is the only thing iv'e found remotly working as i one game had like 14 VR when ha came in with ultras but he also had enugh infestors to kill alot of VR pretty easily DT is also hard to pull of since the Z is going for fast hatch 2.0 to get the infestors and therefore a pretty easy overseer. fungal also can be used for detection. no I just don't know how to beat the spanishiwa style, only have a chance with high tier late game air but even needs a third base which his speedlings will deny even if you reveal your void rays. the the upgraded lings + infestor gets Z so much mapcontrol and can expand at will, beeing safe to drops and, with the queens, air aswell. what I am going to test next time though is goinf for council-play. start with FE and the rush for DTs to try to do harm while trying to exp and get upgrades, aiming for 3/3. i'm thinking about something like alot of archons with speedzealots, with the archons coming from DT while the gas is needed for upgrades and when done, going for HT to feedback. the DTs should be able to get the third up easy. archons to tank fungals. HT to feedback. ability to get blink if needed. only problem is that Z can tech-switch rather fast and a roacharmy would be hard to beat. also - the ability to get an archon for one-shotting of drones with drops is avilable. | ||
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rexob
Sweden202 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225220 | ||
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Fungal Growth
United States434 Posts
Husky tried this in his game vs spanishiwa and while it didn't work, but with proper execution it seemed like it had potential. 9:34 game time (4:23 youtube time) Husky attacks Spanishiwa with 12 fake zealots plus a stalker/sentry ball. Think the big problem was that Husky attacked far too late at the 9 minute mark. | ||
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LeoA
Canada108 Posts
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VeryAverage
United States424 Posts
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Walls
United States172 Posts
as for the DT's I would say that it'ss very risky but if you catch the zerg off guard you can cancel his third, but no more than that, unless the zerg player is low level. And I would say the response to your late game composition would be Infestor ultralisk, infestor is used to take out the zealots cost efficiently and ultralisks are used to counter the archons. In case the protoss player goes for some air-colossi mass air with their zealot archon composition, its most safe to get out corrupters to be able to save the energy on those infestors. Also with the infestor speen now lowered down we can pay less attention to the infestors but still loosing them would be like a protoss player loosing all his centuries early game (and possibly GGing next.) As for the dealing with the immortals, it is very cost efficient to use infested terran to scatter them or kill them, also your ultralisks should never waste any of their attacks on the immortals. ultralisks are easy to micro, save them as much as you can be cause loosing them could be the end of you no matter how far ahead you are. unless you are 7 base vs a 1 base toss with phoenixes. High templar could do serios damage to your composition so be wary of them. you can deal with them be microing your infestors and keeping the in the back, if the templar get to greedy to kill your infestors kill them with the rest of your army. If the protoss player switches into mass high templars (gets more than 6 templars out) you can afford to get about 7-8 mutas and wait for an opportunity to catch some of those Templar, because of their movement speed they cant be caught out of position if the protoss player is not careful. and, in time maybe harrass his mineral lines a little make him build a cannon or two. another way of dealing with templar is to use about 10 burrowed roaches in your compostion, as the battle starts burrow your roaches and send them under the protoss army, this would very cost efficient because although the protoss player has an observes and sees them, he focuses his entire army on those burrowed roaches and they take in some much of the focus fire while the rest of your army is doing their job. | ||
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yiodee
United States137 Posts
On May 21 2011 12:29 Keilah wrote: Mentioned in the other thread, but a greedy expand (possible vs no-gas = no sling or roach) followed by +1attack 8-gate with HT (for queen feedback & archon) works really well vs queen/spine and obviously smooshes lings and banes thanks to the +1 and archons. Hits around 10:30-11:00, just before the z will be starting his bane drops and other antics. Roaches work, but that forces a deviation from the ling/bane/infestor play that Spanishiwa suggests; also he says to use ling/bane/spine to stop a 6-gate, and the 8-gate with archives looks basically the same but adds on an archive and hits a little later (the extra 2 gates are just completing around the time you hit, these exist because HTs have a ridic long cooldown). If your scouts miss the archives, your ling/bane defense is going to cost you the game, and even if you do it's only 62s from planting archives -> archon merging complete, not a lot of time to adjust. If you build a bunch of (mostly useless) lings and banes, then notice at the last second that the attack is late or spot the archives a little late, you will have a lot less roaches. Anyways, I'm sure there are ways for the zerg to solve this and react properly, but there you have it, a protoss way to solidly beat the spanishiwa style as written. yeah I actually lost to this the other day. Mainly because I am not that good of a Zerg, but he beat my bling infestor army pretty bad. The problem with your build is that you would not have as many sentries, so I can just 1a speed banes and destroy your army. The real problem are the archons. Thanks blizzard, the toss lategame was strong enough. Now virtually any toss tier 3 tech destroys lings. If the zerg knows your stuff is coming though, he can prepare properly. But archons or air seem like the best options vs baneling bombs | ||
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pikaaarrr :3
United States593 Posts
ON TOPIC: I honestly think that good blink stalker micro can mitigate a lot of damage from baneling drops, which are essential to this style. In the Stars Wars Ro8... + Show Spoiler + lovecd basically destroyed morrow completely convincingly using blink stalkers incredibly effectively; he basically continuously split the blink stalkers and really mitigated about all of the splash damage, making the banelings very cost ineffective. he didn't even need the sentries much. with constant pressure and aggressive splitting, lovecd constantly denied morrow's third OVER AND OVER AGAIN and could pick his battles with the zerg and win them cost and larva-effectively. | ||
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headchopperz
25 Posts
And try to pressure him at like 6-7m to scare him to making a ton of lings. | ||
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Rylaji
Sweden580 Posts
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KillerMZE
Israel22 Posts
The main reason that Spanishiwa is dominating is not his build, but his skills. The most important thing to note in his games is that he scouts constantly, knows everything the opponent is doing, and his build allows him to delay teching to the correct units until he knows exactly what he should build. Since he is a good late game player, he benefits from using a build that guarantees surviving into the late game. A lesser player may copy this build, but fail later in the macro game. I play Zerg, and so I can't give any specifics as to how to beat this with the other races, but in ZvZ anyone who expands that fast will not survive long vs a stream of +1 speedlings. | ||
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IIIOmegaIII
Sweden319 Posts
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