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go easy on me, this is my first thread, and my first actual attempt att "solving a problem" in the sc2 universe (PvZ "universe")
also, i have a tendency to drag on about things and will try to add spoilers to the parts that aren't absolutely neccesairy.
first of - I create this thread to introduce my (hopefully new) tactic or style, which is at the moment only rough ideas of how to beat a Zerg that play what i call the "spanishiwa" style.
hopefully only up until now, i have had a very hard time beating this but with this thread i will present my attempts to refine a build to counter it. at writing moment, i haven't come far (just one pretty bad replay) but i still want to start this now so you and I can track the progress. and if this actually turns out to work really good, i'll be glad to contribute to the community. and perhaps even be able to coin something.
why i find the spanishiwa style overpowered very hard to beat with my "old" way of playing PvZ.
+ Show Spoiler + some time ago i almost allways opend with 3gate expand vs Z but had big problems with it as I often got out-macroed and almost allways was up against a Z with 2 more expos just throwing roaches on my lonely poor colussus.
I then started doing doing forge FE and then rush for starport and then chrono out 4 phoenixes on big maps and void rays on smaller maps. i then started harassing as much as possible with this and trying to deny the zerg their third. after they get lair up i just teched to colussous and with one got my third while continuing trying to deny expos while getting 200 fewd and then attack to kill the zergs roach/hydra army and the replenishes (forcefields are key, void rays tank dmg from corruptors and deal dmg to roaches and i get blink if he manages to get broodlords.)
if it was on a map that did not workt well with forge FE, i just got 2gate + stargate and then expanded while harassing.
this tactic was good because you get mapcontrol, you buy time, you deny thirds, you kill overlords, you force queens/spores/hydras, which u actually do because you can allways chrono out more air and kill the zerg. when the robo is out you can also fly around with and obs and kill creep tumors.
this tactic works for me very good vs zergs that go roach/hydra, you get a very, very, very powerful 200 army that is powerful very early so you can expand. you are also able to harass.
then came the spanishiwa style. with this style the zerg gets (don't know exactly) alot of spines, alot of queens and alot of drones early while working it's way to mass infestors and cracklings and then any of the super-units in mass. the lings gets mapcontrol. the queens + their creep denies air. infestors deny air. ability to harass mineral lines if wanted, lots of speed for counters. it buys alot of time and keep the protoss on two bases and with the economy, the Zerg can switch to any unit and mass it if he/she wants to aswell as expand at free will. i found it unbeatable.
now what i suggest you do is:
forge FE if the maps allows you, and the Z will get his natrual + third.
rush for DTs and if you don't have your natrual, get it! you should be able to def all-ins with DT or kill the third + drones at his main + at natrual. use the DTs as much as possible to buy yourself time.
with the time your first goal is to get third up and/or get as much upgrades as you possible can, aim for +3 dmg & +3 armour and charge. i haven't figured out the timings quite yet to get it all to finish simultaneously but the goal is to gett mass archons and push out on the map (yeah, DTs can morph into archons aswell i was suprised too!) try to get up expos behind your army and don't be to eager to attack. the thing is that now, the zerg won't feel tempted to get lings as what are lings gonna do vs zealot-archon. when you don't need your gas for the 3/3 & charge, get a templar archives and start morphin HT into archons and you can save some for pure feedback vs infestors if necessary (and storm isn't bad either) and if the zerg manages to get to hive tech, i think that your zealot-archon army will take it down, or switch some zealots for stalkers and you will have the twilight council up for blink if you see broodlords.
I haven't tried out every scenario that is mentioned above, but i will continue to explore this "style" or what it will turn out to be.
replays. still w8ing for a m8 to come online so i can try this out in mass games.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)zzartex_vs_(P)rexob__sc2rep_com_20110521/8582
tal'darim altar - vs mass roach + infestor (+some mutas) 2/5
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)ipForsaken_vs_(P)rexob__sc2rep_com_20110521/8606
tal'darim altar - vs mass roach & broodlords. 2.5/5
my very first sample but i will as soon as possible get together with a practice partner and try it more in-depth.
leave a comment about what you think.
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What beats me when spanishiwa style is used by (me) is Zealot, Archon, Templar, Immorotal. With Dt to harrass. This is late game obviously, but yea DT opening is good against that build but if he is prepared you will be quite behind; kind of a coin flip i guess but Great start to a solid play style you could always morph into arcon 
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already knew about the first thread about fighting the spanishiwa build, but thought that this required more space than that and I found the build suggestions presented there to be ineffective.
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So your basic idea is forge fe (map dependent) -> dt's -> turtle to 3-3 mass archon chargelot then a-move and hope you win?
Sounds pretty terrible tbh, you're being neither greedy nor regularly aggressive which gives the zerg huge windows to do whatever the hell they want. You also have very minimal scouting for large parts of the game whilst the zerg can easily work out what you're doing and has way too much time in which to compose a counter.
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Was this a mod edit that made the text box blue?
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I use the Spanishiwa opener vs Protoss all the time, and I actually totally agree with this post. This is a solid game plan. It isn't like the 2 or 3 base turtle to Void Ray/Colossus, where it's just hey, get a base, make some probes, then mass units and a move!
When we Zergs open Spanishiwa style, it's tough to deal with early DTs. I've lost games from the DT harass alone. Plus, the general follow up that most Zergs use from that same opener, is to go Ling/Bane/Infestor, which has a tough time with Zealot/Archon. However, I would be careful with that kind of composition because if the Zerg gets Neural Parasite in time, and if they rush to Ultralisks, a combination of Neural Parasited Archons wiping out Zealots and Ultralisks laughing off Storms will ruin your day.
However, I feel that if you deal any significant damage with the DTs, you will be far enough ahead that you can hit a Zealot/Archon timing before the Zerg has any of the things he needs to deal with it. Keep working on it, love seeing the ZvP matchup evolve!
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Spanishiwa style was my savior, as its mentioned with a lot of typos in the OP, the protoss was able to win the PvZ match-up so incredibly easily, but now they have to actually shed a sweat or two.
as for the DT's I would say that it'ss very risky but if you catch the zerg off guard you can cancel his third, but no more than that, unless the zerg player is low level.
And I would say the response to your late game composition would be Infestor ultralisk, infestor is used to take out the zealots cost efficiently and ultralisks are used to counter the archons.
In case the protoss player goes for some air-colossi mass air with their zealot archon composition, its most safe to get out corrupters to be able to save the energy on those infestors.
Also with the infestor speen now lowered down we can pay less attention to the infestors but still loosing them would be like a protoss player loosing all his centuries early game (and possibly GGing next.)
As for the dealing with the immortals, it is very cost efficient to use infested terran to scatter them or kill them, also your ultralisks should never waste any of their attacks on the immortals.
ultralisks are easy to micro, save them as much as you can be cause loosing them could be the end of you no matter how far ahead you are. unless you are 7 base vs a 1 base toss with phoenixes.
High templar could do serios damage to your composition so be wary of them. you can deal with them be microing your infestors and keeping the in the back, if the templar get to greedy to kill your infestors kill them with the rest of your army.
If the protoss player switches into mass high templars (gets more than 6 templars out) you can afford to get about 7-8 mutas and wait for an opportunity to catch some of those Templar, because of their movement speed they cant be caught out of position if the protoss player is not careful. and, in time maybe harrass his mineral lines a little make him build a cannon or two. another way of dealing with templar is to use about 10 burrowed roaches in your compostion, as the battle starts burrow your roaches and send them under the protoss army, this would very cost efficient because although the protoss player has an observes and sees them, he focuses his entire army on those burrowed roaches and they take in some much of the focus fire while the rest of your army is doing their job.
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If u don't get HT before ~14min mark and turtle like that z can just come and spam fungal u to death -.- A dt opener is vulnerable to roach/ling all ins and allinish agression - all he needs to do is fall bk, morph overseer and kill u ;\
imo it's best to get robo for obs and immos and after that add council for blink dt and ht if u manage to delay his 3rd and take ur 3rd early(because spanishwa's allows u to do that, even before zerg) then it's a win scenario.
Another thing is that if u're goin gateway heavy then double forge is only way to be cost efficient, otherwise z will crush u even with significantly smaller army(~20%).
I myself tend to open with 3 gate hallu +1 and expo(+1 is done when nex gets finished) this way u can put very strong pressure cause lings will be like paper for zeals and killing roaches is matter of good ff. Such opener allows u to force more units than usual because urs will be so much stronger in early game aswell as deny expo and keep map control for pretty long time.
Often I can get 3rd 2-3in game mins before zerg which is big deal in gas race - u gotta get hts while producing army constantly.
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The initial DT harass is quite risky, if it works, you can win with anything, if it doesn't, you invested a lot and got nothing out of it.
I'm using the spanishiwa style a lot and if i suspect DTs i put down 1 spore crawlers at the choke close to the natural and block the ramp with queens. Depending on scouting i sometimes add another spore crawler in the naturals mineral line just to be safe. You can easily afford it and it's always better to be safe than sorry. My usual timing for detection is ~6:30-7:00.
Against Zealot-Heavy Builds like your Zealot/Archon, Banelings with some Roaches work wonders and can deny your aggression until infestors are out. It all depends on how good the Zerg scouts.
What makes your strategy valid is the mention of upgrades. Against the Spanishiwa Style you need fast upgrades, double-Forge if possible.
Also, you need HTs at most a minute after the Zerg got his infestors, otherwise all your aggression will be stopped before it does damage.
I can also recommend building cannons close to your mineral line, it weakens baneling drops and provides detection against burrowed infestors, so it stops most of the strong harass that is the trademark of this style.
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On May 22 2011 04:51 LarJarsE wrote:Was this a mod edit that made the text box blue?
No, I think certain pro-level respected players are highlighted blue so people know there's a boss around here who know's what he is talking about
Right people?
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All protoss needs to do against a spanichiwa opener is be more greedy than usual because there is no pressure/map control coming out of zerg. Take an earlier third, or tech harder, or both.
It's really not that bad to deal with, I actually prefer playing against spanichiwa style because I know I won't have to deal with a wonky all in / bust.
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In my experience going anything other than stalker colossus (+ something else late game) is a gamble vZ.
Zerg can very easily get all of its tech and then can just proceed to tech switch constantly. All none stalker/colossus based builds can work if your opponent continues to build the wrong units, if he changes his composition though, you're completely fucked (broodlords/banedrops/ultras/sling/sroach). You need stalker colossus as your centre mix of units to be able to deal with anything he can throw at you. Then with 25+ gateways, 3/4/5 robos and templar tech you're set to deal with anything you're opponent might do lategame.
Against spanishiwa I'd focus on good ff to keep you alive until you can add archons in the mix and later immos vs ultras (with stalker/colossus). Walling off with cannons is also a good idea for all expos (like when playing vs hellions vT).
Oh and ofc take a faster third.
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I always do this build as I am a low masters player. Here are some of the builds that beat me
zvz - ling/baneling all in off 2 base. When you both hatch first, you can take the advantage if you can get some lings up his ramp. Either push him hard before you expand or delay your push after you expand. queens blocking the ramp are the most important part. If you can get enough banes to them and then enough speedlings into the base its gg for him. If you are now on two base you can produce as many drones as he can and you are much further along in tech
zvt - fast drops. The thing to take here is that most of the defense + 4 queens in the front. Bringing a dropship or 2 with marines can do a lot of damage (very cost effective) if you can get it to the main.
zvp - fast blink stalkers with good micro. This is the most annoying build for me to go up against. With really good micro players can kill all my spines with Minimal damages. Making me to tech to hydras fast. By this point if you have expanded properly you will be outnumbering me with stalkers.
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I maintain that Liquid`Nazgul's Blink Stalker 4gate is a hard counter. Unbelievably difficult to stop without Speedlings or Hydras. I don't think it can even be beaten if the Zerg builds 20 Spines, because then the Protoss can just skip a couple rounds of Stalkers and throw down an expo and a Dark Shrine.
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On May 24 2011 19:21 trNimitz wrote:
In my experience going anything other than stalker colossus (+ something else late game) is a gamble vZ.
Zerg can very easily get all of its tech and then can just proceed to tech switch constantly. All none stalker/colossus based builds can work if your opponent continues to build the wrong units, if he changes his composition though, you're completely fucked (broodlords/banedrops/ultras/sling/sroach). You need stalker colossus as your centre mix of units to be able to deal with anything he can throw at you. Then with 25+ gateways, 3/4/5 robos and templar tech you're set to deal with anything you're opponent might do lategame.
Against spanishiwa I'd focus on good ff to keep you alive until you can add archons in the mix and later immos vs ultras (with stalker/colossus). Walling off with cannons is also a good idea for all expos (like when playing vs hellions vT).
Oh and ofc take a faster third.
In late game void rays are only real solution, everything else isnt cost effective vs heavy tech switches.
The moment I see hive morphing I lay down 3 stargates and pump 3-6 rays for starter, they prevent any hard tech switch to broods or ultras, deal with mass roach so well that he shouldnt engage otherwise he's gonna lose a lot and u will lose tiny bit.
Hydras are not effective when u start gettin rays because with double ups so late in game with GS, decent ff and blink u will take barely any losses. Hydras get +1 per up and most of P units get way more so upgrades just nullify hydras' effectiveness.
Not even mentioning HTs and/or DTs. When u got blink+dt u force a lot of overseers otherwise u're gonna snipe 1 and smash him with like 3-4 dts.
Thing is that if u get void rays they force zerg to stay in big ball, because if he lets them charge he's just dead. Thus u prevent multi pronged attacks, which are very strong by z in late game and also u allow urself for a lot of expo/drone sniping with zeal+dt. By this time u should have like 12+ warp gates so u can warp in like 7 zeals to kill spore crawler and then dt has fun with drones. That late in game zerg has serious trouble with taking more bases, u can deny if very effectively.
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i've tried my style out alot now vs Z and found that even if my DT do almost no initial damage to any worker line, i'm pretty OK.
the DTs are allways able to kill their third but the only thing that i've lost big time to is a maxed roach/hydra army.
will try to upload more replays now that i've seen people are actually reading this thread :D
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EPT
