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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gtYga.jpg)
10 billion ESPORTS dollars to the first person to point out which game this is from
Credit goes to Ares[Effort] for digging up this replay
A couple of days ago when I was messing around on MrBitter's stream, I had surprisingly good results doing a very crude, not well thought out build where I just massed archons and chargelots. Sounds stupid, doesn't it? Well that's what some people said about my mass void ray build and that ended up getting patched out of the game. This time we have the same story: I make a seemingly terrible unit composition to troll people, beat some good players with it, then realize there is potential to make a legitimate strategy out of it.
So here’s a summary of my build so far:
- Do some kind of FE depending on what I scout. 15 nexus 15 forge vs 14 pool, 15 pylon 18 nexus 19 forge vs hatch first, 15 forge if I haven’t found my opponent yet. Full wall off is important!
- Take main gases around 24, expo gases around 30
- Chrono out sentries, warp gate research, and +1 weapons once the cyber core is done. If my scouting probe is still alive and hasn’t found a third base, I make more cannons in case of an all-in.
- Add 3 more gates and a twilight council.
- Templar archives and +2 weapons when twilight council is done, start warping in zealots and stalkers.
- 4 more gates!
- Mass archons and zealots! Research charge as well so that you have it before you move out.
- (Optional)Get +3 weapons and spam chrono boosts
- Make 2 more gates, kill your walling gate for a total of 9
- Move out and take a third base. Alternatively, go kill your opponent. I like the third base better but hey whatever floats your boat. If you got +3 weapons, attack when that’s done. If not, attack whenever you want.
- If opponent is still alive, add more gates and continue spamming chargelots/archons.
When you attack, your army should look like this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1cNfU.jpg)
Oops wrong picture!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jaSz7.jpg)
There we go.
Now this build is clearly not optimal. For one, I don’t have all the fancy precise timings I do in my standard builds. Hell, I don’t even have detection! Another thing is, it just feels easy. I’m turtling, massing up an army, and then 1a-ing my way to victory (no CrunCher jokes please). While this is fine for the occasional all-in in a best of X series, a legitimate macro strategy should have some form of early or mid game pressure to discourage mass drones, map control to discourage mass expos, some method of scouting, and require more micro than just making a guardian shield every once in a while. Despite all of the flaws, I still managed some decent results.
Winning Replays
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-208781.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-208784.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-208786.jpg)
Losing Replays
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-208783.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-208788.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-208789.jpg)
If you check SC2Ranks or 12 Weeks With the Pros (which is an awesome show show that everyone needs to check out btw), you might notice that my opponents are actually pretty good players! Therefore, any posts along the lines of “this would never work against a competent zerg” will be BANNED. Not only are they not helpful and wildly inaccurate, they prove the poster hasn’t read the thread or watched the replays.
So, the purpose of this thread is to discuss ways of making this strategy work, either by improving my build, finding alternate builds, or finding a way to do it on maps where you can’t forge FE.
Suggestions and My Opinions of Them
Thanks to Saracen, VTMrBitter, VTFuture, Shoey, tQaquanda, and xiGerbil for suggestions!
- DT Harass
By using an early dark shrine instead of getting a Templar archives, I gain some map control back from the Zerg and have a good chance of killing drones. I also get slightly more archons for the same amount of gas. The tradeoff is that DTs have a chance of failing to do damage, and the mineral cost of archons will cost me a TON of chargelots. Let’s pretend that my macro is so bad that I have 1500 minerals and 1500 gas. I could make 6 DT archons with that, or I could make 5 HT archons and 10 zealots, or I could make 5 HT archons and 2 Nexuses. I don’t know about you guys, but I’ll take 10 zealots over 1 archon any day.
Verdict so far: sounds like a good idea but once I have my third base up, I definitely need to add a Templar archives and switch to HT archons.
- Get storm
I can either have roughly X archons, or a ton of storms and still have X - 1 archons a few seconds later. The former sounds like a terrible deal to me, so maybe I’m retarded for not trying out storm yet. Consider though, that storms are terrible vs roaches and will damage my own chargelots. Also consider that just having the archons earlier lets them do plenty of damage in the time it would take to storm everything and then morph archons.
Verdict so far: I’ll probably settle for a mix of archons and Templars. Given pathing and the low range of the archon, it seems optimal to have a front row of archons and chargelots, but Templars behind.
update: psi storm replay
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-209033.jpg)
Seems decent vs hydra/roach
- Hallucinated archons
The way this build works, the best micro Zerg can do is to focus down individual archons because zealots are meatshields and any archon that doesn’t die will be back to full health for the next battle. Making hallucinations tries to mess with this.
Verdict so far: LOL which noob suggested this?  Maybe if I run into Idra at MLG. Otherwise, I’d rather make force fields, use guardian shield, and get real archons with the gas.
- Focus fire overlords with archons
I had a little trouble with baneling drops on my zealots and sentries. This would solve that problem and supply block people as well.
Verdict so far: Yep, this is a good way to defend vs baneling drops. Definitely need to practice this.
- Use it without forge FEing
Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. You want me to give up on economy by going 3 gate expo, and then you’re telling me to spend a ton of gas on sentries on top of that? The plus side is with an earlier army, I can take an earlier third base.
Verdict so far: Doesn't sound like a great idea.
And there you have it! I’ve presented you guys with a different way to play PvZ, devoid of any colossus or mass stalker or even detection that you normally tend to see. Try it out, share your stories, and if you find a way to make it work even better, then please help me improve my build!
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Have you considered any stargate variations of this build, maybe sacrifice a gateway or 2 and mass up a few Phoenix, to do as you please?
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Reach vs ChoJJa?
Have been playing Zealot/ Archon/ Immortal/ HT in TvZ for a while btw, it's just as viable as anything Colossi based, perhaps a bit harder to play, more gratifying too though 
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ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuu, now I have to see this crap on ladder too.
I was facepalming at State of the Game tonight when everyone wrote the archon change off as inconsequential.
This is a very frustrating kind of thing to deal with for this reason:
Everyone knows a Protoss deathball is hell to deal with. Corruptors suck! Seriously.
Against this unit composition, the deathball is just as effective (if not more so) and now Zerg doesn't have a unit (even a bad one) capable of really challenging the major damage dealer: the archon.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
Has to be Reach vs ChoJJa.
Edit:Damn beaten.
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for using archons to kill overlord drops, do you know how many hits it takes to kill one overlord or how many archons are needed to one shot overlords? it sounds like a great idea but at the same time sounds a little inefficient (either you spend time killing a overlord or two or do direct damage to his army)
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For people saying Reach vs ChoJJa, remember that was on some space station map and MSL replays aren't released.
edit: takes 5 hits from an archon to kill an overlord
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On May 14 2011 12:24 MrBitter wrote:
ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuu, now I have to see this crap on ladder too.
I was facepalming at State of the Game tonight when everyone wrote the archon change off as inconsequential.
This is a very frustrating kind of thing to deal with for this reason:
Everyone knows a Protoss deathball is hell to deal with. Corruptors suck! Seriously.
Against this unit composition, the deathball is just as effective (if not more so) and now Zerg doesn't have a unit (even a bad one) capable of really challenging the major damage dealer: the archon.
Pure upgraded Roach does pretty well vs Zealot/ Archon. Gonna be tough with stormers and immortals mixed in though. Muta's might be good too, but you'll be really vulnerable to a timing.
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On May 14 2011 12:31 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 12:24 MrBitter wrote:
ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuu, now I have to see this crap on ladder too.
I was facepalming at State of the Game tonight when everyone wrote the archon change off as inconsequential.
This is a very frustrating kind of thing to deal with for this reason:
Everyone knows a Protoss deathball is hell to deal with. Corruptors suck! Seriously.
Against this unit composition, the deathball is just as effective (if not more so) and now Zerg doesn't have a unit (even a bad one) capable of really challenging the major damage dealer: the archon. Pure upgraded Roach does pretty well vs Zealot/ Archon. Gonna be tough with stormers and immortals mixed in though. Muta's might be good too, but you'll be really vulnerable to a timing.
Watch replays thx
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Epic thread :D
I wonder if this will trigger incentive to get Hydras? now I know Hydras > Zealot and but with Zealot speed it's about equal or worse (like in SC1) but Hydras do a lot of damage and can maybe outdps the archons and zealots... hmm
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Speaking as a zerg, I've had some practice partners try to do this against me and I end up crushing them hardcore early game. If they make enough defense to hold off till Archon I can muster up Ultralisks, if too many zealots Broodlords, by the time archons start to mass.
I just don't think Archon is viable in PvZ, storms are extremely useful and Archons should only be made after storms are all used up and Archons should not just be made as a unit to push out with.
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53 minute long, must involve Testie.
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Well to be honest, I've been trying this out in PvT. I'll do a FE and throw down a Templar Archives. The style is hard-countered by someone with decent ghost micro/banshee harass so it is very risky.
I am however liking the early HTs to counter Thor play (which is somewhat standard on the ladder in SEA) and the early Psi-storms help deal with those terrible MM balls.
As far as PvZ goes, my PvZ practice partner is more often then not a finalist in a bo5 with me in a local tournament, so I don't want to test the build/style against someone who is likely to counter it when it matters. D:
But I watched the replays and that was awesome! If you manage to standardise this, HTs and Archons will be getting a nerf in the near future :D
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On May 14 2011 12:31 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 12:24 MrBitter wrote:
ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuu, now I have to see this crap on ladder too.
I was facepalming at State of the Game tonight when everyone wrote the archon change off as inconsequential.
This is a very frustrating kind of thing to deal with for this reason:
Everyone knows a Protoss deathball is hell to deal with. Corruptors suck! Seriously.
Against this unit composition, the deathball is just as effective (if not more so) and now Zerg doesn't have a unit (even a bad one) capable of really challenging the major damage dealer: the archon. Pure upgraded Roach does pretty well vs Zealot/ Archon. Gonna be tough with stormers and immortals mixed in though. Muta's might be good too, but you'll be really vulnerable to a timing.
Haha, I thought so too, man. I thought so too...
edit:
Also, wtf! I just caught this:
On May 14 2011 12:07 iamke55 wrote:Verdict so far: LOL which noob suggested this? Maybe if I run into Idra at MLG. Otherwise, I’d rather make force fields, use guardian shield, and get real archons with the gas.
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On May 14 2011 12:07 iamke55 wrote:
[*]Get storm
I can either have roughly X archons, or a ton of storms and still have X - 1 archons a few seconds later. The former sounds like a terrible deal to me, so maybe I’m retarded for not trying out storm yet. Consider though, that storms are terrible vs roaches and will damage my own chargelots. Also consider that just having the archons earlier lets them do plenty of damage in the time it would take to storm everything and then morph archons.
Verdict so far: I’ll probably settle for a mix of archons and Templars. Given pathing and the low range of the archon, it seems optimal to have a front row of archons and chargelots, but Templars behind.
Wouldn't it be more important to have templars so you can feedback infestors seeing as fungal growth shuts down your army's ability to deal dps (although it doesn't do much damage to you).
Also, how do you deal with neural pasarite on archons. 2-3 (or like eight if zerg is awesome) Archons in the middle of your chargelots tends to be pretty painful and if z gets neural off you don't have a feasible way to kill the infestor unless it has full energy and you can still feedback snipe it.
On a side note, as you want the robotics for obs regardless, I think that adding immortals into the compostion would benefit you just because of how damn good they are against z. They also won't be getting stuck behind stalkers or sentries so you would simply have another layer of dmg dealers with zealot/archon and immortals.
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Ok watched one of the winning reps and tried to do it vs a speeding fast expand. What ended up happening to me was the mass roach burst he managed to get after our first engagement. HOWEVER, I should note that I'm coming off like a two week break and my macro was horrible.
So maybe this is viable at a higher level? I'll keep practicing.
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Honestly this does sound really potent, especially with the new archon change. The only straight up answer I can think of off the top of my head is just delaying until you can get a good number of ultralisks out
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On May 14 2011 12:53 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 12:31 Saechiis wrote:On May 14 2011 12:24 MrBitter wrote:
ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuu, now I have to see this crap on ladder too.
I was facepalming at State of the Game tonight when everyone wrote the archon change off as inconsequential.
This is a very frustrating kind of thing to deal with for this reason:
Everyone knows a Protoss deathball is hell to deal with. Corruptors suck! Seriously.
Against this unit composition, the deathball is just as effective (if not more so) and now Zerg doesn't have a unit (even a bad one) capable of really challenging the major damage dealer: the archon. Pure upgraded Roach does pretty well vs Zealot/ Archon. Gonna be tough with stormers and immortals mixed in though. Muta's might be good too, but you'll be really vulnerable to a timing. Haha, I thought so too, man. I thought so too... edit: Also, wtf! I just caught this: Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 12:07 iamke55 wrote:Verdict so far: LOL which noob suggested this? Maybe if I run into Idra at MLG. Otherwise, I’d rather make force fields, use guardian shield, and get real archons with the gas.
edited in link to 12 Weeks With the Pros just in case people don't use the search function
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On May 14 2011 13:01 Stropheum wrote:
Honestly this does sound really potent, especially with the new archon change. The only straight up answer I can think of off the top of my head is just delaying until you can get a good number of ultralisks out
Ultras deal zero bonus damage to archons. Ultras deal zero bonus damage to zealots. Ultra pathing rivals BW goon pathing.
Archons deal massive bonus damage to ultras. Zealots shred ultras and further complicate their clunky pathing. Zealot charge gives free auto-surrounds on big, slow, Zerg units.
The only reason anyone ever wants ultras in ZvP is to deal with big, clumped up groups of armored units like stalkers.
A zealot / archon army features absolutely zero clumped, armored units...
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It's actually quite popular in PvP too, might play around with it a bit in PvZ as well, thanks!
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EPT
