DTs are more gas efficient but Dark Shrine is slower than Archives so a player has to account for what could attack them in that brief window of opportunity trying to use them to build archons.

iChau

United States1210 Posts

May 14 2011 18:33 GMT

#62

On May 15 2011 03:30 mutantmagnet wrote:
DTs are more gas efficient but Dark Shrine is slower than Archives so a player has to account for what could attack them in that brief window of opportunity trying to use them to build archons.

You can get SO many more zealots by going templar archives, however. 10 zealots is much better than an archon like OP said.

Dommk

Australia4865 Posts

May 14 2011 18:38 GMT

#63

On May 15 2011 03:13 Verbal wrote:
good fungals with anything involving a roach or hydra rips this apart. range 3 and 1 locked in place vs higher range zerg units is gg

Not really. Well not in that respect.

Archon/Zealot doesn't ball up like Stalker/Colossus. Your archon ball alone is almost the size of a regular Stalker/Colossus ball. As fungals are 4seconds now, Zerg needs a ton of infestors to hold your army down for a long time.

The infestor energy is better spent on Nuerals on Archons, which at 3attack are hitting Zealots for 44dmg a hit or Fungals used on the Protoss army to act as mini forcefields.

SwirlQ

United States148 Posts

May 14 2011 18:40 GMT

#64

lag have you considered adding a few immortals into this mix, allowing for a easier time against early/mid game roach aggression. It'd also allow for a obs so you can adapt to what zerg is doing. do you think zerg could just spam hydras while dumping minerals into defendable expos and spinecrawlers, and then switch into heavy roach hydra off 4ish bases while already having a scary mass of hydras.

p.s. please excuse my bad grammar... xD

Whiplash

United States2929 Posts

May 14 2011 18:50 GMT

#65

I have been messing around with this playstyle as well, I think its viable if a really good and safe opening can come you go into the mix. I have also experimented opening up air and transferring into this and using storm late game with the army; theres lots of promise here I think and a potentially new standard for how to PvZ in the next upcoming months.

KotaOnCue

United States180 Posts

May 14 2011 18:53 GMT

#66

Did you ever think about adding Immortals to this mix as well? Immortals are also good at taking damage and dealing tons of it to their armored roaches (which they'll most likely have) and they won't have as many pathing issues as they would with a stalker heavy army since most of your army will be up at the front. Adding 4-5 Immortals make this a roach blender with archons.

Haha, as I write this, somebody else thinks of it too two posts before me haha.

ETisME

12702 Posts

May 14 2011 19:05 GMT

#67

I am interested to know how do u handle muta harass since your army isn't that mobile.
in terms of actual combat, I think roache and mutas (tier 3 go for brood) would work ok as long as the archon number is low

SwirlQ

United States148 Posts

May 14 2011 19:16 GMT

#68

Etisme, if zerg is going roach muta they cant have that much of both. So id assume you would just add in some stalkers w/ blink get a good army distribution of zealot,archon and stalkers.

MrBitter

United States2940 Posts

May 14 2011 20:08 GMT

#69

On May 15 2011 04:05 ETisME wrote:
I am interested to know how do u handle muta harass since your army isn't that mobile.
in terms of actual combat, I think roache and mutas (tier 3 go for brood) would work ok as long as the archon number is low

My experience trying to go muta vs this style hasn't been too promising.

You have to consider a couple of things.

1.) Protoss is getting fast upgrades.

2.) Protoss is rushing templar, giving him access to both blink and storm.

3.) Protoss is throwing down looots of gates very early on.

4.) Protoss wanting to go archon/zealot does not lock him in to archon/zealot. Once he realizes "oh, Zerg's going muta", Toss will get blink, add storm, and make tons of very well upgraded stalkers, at which point he should lol all over your muta ball.

SwirlQ

United States148 Posts

May 14 2011 20:12 GMT

#70

I'd assume against this style it'd be best for zerg to give map control to toss early on in favor of powering.

Kovaz

Canada233 Posts

May 14 2011 20:16 GMT

#71

I've actually been trying this out as a late-game transition out of blink stalkers. I prefer not to do the "turtle up and then a-move," and the blink stalkers let me be active on the map, pressure the zerg, take my third earlier, etc. Also I find that stalkers work fairly well with this style since they deal with mass roach a little better, and they can just sit in the back and not get in anything's way.

SpiZe

Canada3640 Posts

May 14 2011 21:02 GMT

#72

I think it needs to involve building a robo and getting a observer somewhere before you get your third up. Borrowed zerglings are really annoying when you realise you need to expand and you can't because there is a zergling trolling. Getting the robo, building a obs and flying it there is also very long. You can always build a cannon but it also delays your third by some time. Getting some spare gas to build the robo and obs is kinda hard when you are on 2 base tho.

Once you get the robo up, I highly recommend getting a Prism out as they do not cost gas. Loading up 1 or 2 archons into a prism and dropping a mineral lines is deadly. Archons with +2 attack one shot drones.

Harmonized

57 Posts

May 14 2011 21:08 GMT

#73

Now, i´m just diamond but shouldn´t roach/hydra with upgrades deal with this pretty easily?

rpgalon

Brazil1069 Posts

May 14 2011 21:11 GMT

#74

i think this should be played more like a harass and active style,
templars with storm on warp prisms harassing mineral lines,
your army is fast (2.75 chargelots and 2.8 archons), you should try to trade zealots with your enemy army, zealots die and you run way with the archons, warp more zealots and keep pressuring, you have to avoid big amounts of zealots.

maybe I am wrong, but camping on your base just seens wrong when your army have 2,75 movement speed

Hyperionnn

Turkey4968 Posts

May 14 2011 21:12 GMT

#75

this replay is suncow vs someone probably but i dont remember
edit: oops its not

Geovu

Estonia1344 Posts

May 14 2011 21:14 GMT

#76

On May 15 2011 06:11 rpgalon wrote:
i think this should be played more like a harass and active style,
templars with storm on warp prisms harassing mineral lines,
your army is fast (2.75 chargelots and 2.8 archons), you should try to trade zealots with your enemy army, zealots die and you run way with the archons, warp more zealots and keep pressuring, you have to avoid big amounts of zealots.

maybe I am wrong, but camping on your base just seens wrong when your army have 2,75 movement speed

Every single Zerg unit besides off creep hydras/queens + broodlords has a faster movement speed than that. So your point is kinda moot.

Valckrie

United Kingdom533 Posts

May 14 2011 21:21 GMT

#77

Saw Artosis do this in a PvP too. I think DT harass into archon is better, since you won't need templar feedback most of the time, unless they go infestors quite early. DT also forces them to build detection in their bases and an overseer flying around their army. Maybe get +1 weapons as the archon attack scales pretty well doesn't it?

Roach Hydra can kite it slightly on the creep but off creep hydras are so slow, archons will be able to do some serious damage. With a few forcefields if you trap the roach/hydra the zealot/archon melee mix will be sure to do great damage - especially now they have 4 range.

whiteguycash

United States476 Posts

May 14 2011 21:21 GMT

#78

PvP it is ridiculous. open with a 3gate dt rush into chargelot/archon. I have not lost a PvP like this yet, because with the warp-gate nerf, there is more time to get enough units up to defend

Despicatus

34 Posts

May 14 2011 21:27 GMT

#79

So, I just did this against a Master Zerg who knew what i was doing, theres no spesific buildorder either i just chronoed + 3 and moved out when i was almost maxed (got supplystucl so i missed the +3 timing lol) he goes infester ling bling (later ultra) and even kills 20 zealots with 5 blings before a fight starts, and he has like a million bases. But well even though i did so much wrong i think it clearly shows how strong this composition with +3 is. (Btw he knew it was coming)

I think if there will be an actual build that revolves around this unit composition and a fast +3, which could very well completly change the metagame in PvZ.

Darkness2k11

Chile313 Posts

May 14 2011 21:30 GMT

#80

I think this strat is pretty awesome =), i have been messing around with archons and they are really good, specially against ling/bling, where you can use them as shields to suck the banelings and then let the zealots do their job ^.^. Also vs mass roach or roach hydra they do tank fairly well and do lots of damage so chargelot/archon is pretty amazing as long as you fight in open ground where your zealots can try to get a surround (vs ling/bling you don't want to fight in open ground trust me, at least not until you get ride of the banelings and your zealots are like right next to each other, he can micro the banelings to go for the zealots and not for the archons so you must be careful there).

The only thing tho is that you can't really go straight for archons unless you are sure he won't get burrow because you won't be able to move out because of the possibility of your enemy getting roaches in your base.

I think because of the gas cost of archons (250 or 300, i don't think you will morph a DT and a templar, i don't even know if that is still possible

) is better to start with a fast expansion (as stated by the OP), which probably made you get cannons so you are safe vs burrowed roaches as well (as long as you deny any attempt of nydus in your main), this way, you have the gas for the archons and lots of minerals to make lots of zealots ^.^.

Also, fungal can be really good vs melee units like zealots so they won't be able to hit, but if you have archons you will probably have a templar archives and can get some HTs and use feedback on the infestors which should even the score ^^.