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On June 28 2011 18:16 Cryosin wrote:
Address how to deal with infestors and ill give it a shot.
I tried my own version of this and Infestors completely own you.
Hydras and Roaches have more range than Archons and your zealots are stuck in place until they die.
There's feedback but your making archon's so your not gonna have too many templar left to feedback(or your gonna get overrun cuz zealots = fail vs roaches).
I could see a Zerg who isnt prepared and doing a build like ling/muta losing to it. However infestors and roach/hydra(especially all of those combined) are pretty hard counters to this build.
Not saying it wont work, i just wanna know what you would do to deal with it.
I would say don't morph every templar into archons, keep a few for feedbacks. Feedback has a decent range to deal with fungals.
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I'm assuming the answer has been guessed by now, but is it Nal_Ra vs Chojja?
Should put a spoiler in the OP
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I had a variation of this beat me today, he went fast DTs to harass into chargelots and archons and he ended up slaughtering me although mostly the DTs are what weakened me.
(I'm in diamond league btw) so I can confirm this build can work.
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Ive lost a few games when my preferred maxed army (Ultras, cracklings and infestors) gets absolutely melted by a 150-170 toss army heavy on archons. They counter all melee hard dude to their huge aoe dmg output and tanky-ness. A quick switch to roaches is the only thing you can do short of infestor broodlord play.
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Been using this with a stargate variant, but I think it tends to be weak against muta harass the moment you throw down a stargate for early harass. Giving up map control to the zerg is pretty bad, as he can drone up like crazy and add on a few more bases before you can get up a sizeable army.
I wonder how people manage to pressure the zerg while going for this build. Zealot drops perhaps?
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On June 28 2011 20:26 divinesage wrote:
Been using this with a stargate variant, but I think it tends to be weak against muta harass the moment you throw down a stargate for early harass. Giving up map control to the zerg is pretty bad, as he can drone up like crazy and add on a few more bases before you can get up a sizeable army.
I wonder how people manage to pressure the zerg while going for this build. Zealot drops perhaps?
There's a game that Day[9] has been reviewing where HuK is under a lot of muta-pressure he still manages to use DT's to pressure the Zerg. I believe that this build can let the protoss do it the same way.
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Interesting write up.
I feel as though this build (without col or storm support) would be shut down by mass up'd hydras.
thoughts?
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Mass roaches seems to destroy this, any tips?
On June 28 2011 23:01 th2pun1sh3r wrote:
Interesting write up.
I feel as though this build (without col or storm support) would be shut down by mass up'd hydras.
thoughts?
archons still tear through hydras cause they have so much dmg. archons have 25(35) /28(39) /31(43) /34(47) damage, so after 2 weapon upgrades, archons will 2 shot hydras, even if the hydras have 3 armor.
i just tested this, and with 60 2/2 hydras on creep vs 50 3/0/0 zealots and 10 3/0/0 HT archons (same cost), and the toss having only attack upgrades but lvl 3 of it is cause the build specifies on getting attack upgrades. i figured id give the hydras 2/2 to be fair.
there were 15 zealots left, along with all 10 archons. the hydras just fell apart.
Edit: making it a bit easier to read.
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I have been playing chargelot archon quite a bit. In a lot of situations it is very powerful in PvT as well.
I personally like to get a fast charge first.
My rough build order: (Starting at 13 obv)
Gateaway-> Gas -> Pylon-> Cyber ->Gas -> Gateway -> Pylon -> Twlight
Spend all your chrono on workers in because you need to have enough to support two early gasses.
Start saving chrono right before you lay down your twilight so you can spend it all on zealots.
You should be able to move out an attack with chargelots pretty early if you do it right. The attack will buy time to throw down a dark shrine, and expand.
By the time your chargelot harass/ attack is over your DTs should be ready. Pinning your opponent in his base with you chargelots allows you to place a pylon close. When you move out to attack with your DTs, you should have extra cash to throw down more gateways.
The zerg is usually so focused on making units and spines that he hasn't teched to see your DTs. If you just harrass with a few DTs you should be stockpiling Chargelots and Archons in your base. When the DT Harass is over and you have an army, you attack and win.
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I've started to do something similar with a few changes. (not sure on supply counts, will describe timings best i can)
- I do begin with the forge FE (nexus/forge first variation, depends on scouting)
- I lay down 2cannons, gates and pylons to create complete wall off
- get All 4 gases while on 3gate, adding the council.
- Dark shrine around 9 minutes on 2bases (rough)
- While its building, use excess gas to make forge, and a robo.
- Do some DT harass, if the zerg saw your FE and decided fast third this can actually do alot of damage.
- While harassing with 3 dt's, start chrono'ing out immortals and a +1 attack upgrade.
- Continue making a mix of Dt's for archons and stalker from 4 gate (add one)
- Constant construction of immortals, get +2 attack fast.
Most zergs respond to DT harass by massing roach because they assume archon zealot follow up, those who dont respond with speedling infestor.
Your army mix of immortal/archon/stalker/sentry is extremely high dps and super efficient mix of units. Speedlings melt to the archons along with hydra or muta's. And any roaches die instantly to immortals.
Main weaknesses include speedling infestor (and i mean mass infestor) to neural parasite all of your core units (archon immortals) then the lings beat everything else. I add blink stalkers to blink into the infestors and snipe the ones doing NP.
Strengths:
Dark templar make for great map control mid-late game.
Can add drops with your main attacks to garantee damage.
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If you are going zelot archon as the original post suggested after getting weapon ups would you get armor for your zelots or shield for you archons?
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Shouldn't this be turned into a guide with exact timings on the build order? It looks pretty strong to me.
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Has there been any experimentation on mixing in some blink stalker play with mass archons?They seem to complement eachother perfectly. Thoughts?
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On July 22 2011 01:59 MormonWithoutACause wrote:
Has there been any experimentation on mixing in some blink stalker play with mass archons?They seem to complement eachother perfectly. Thoughts?
You're pretty tight on gas before you get third secured. Late game I don't see what's wrong with adding stalkers.
Lame side note, I just goofed off in a 4v4 match went 3 gates into DTs, did some harass and then transitioned to Archon/Chargelot. A lot of variables go into the game but my army wrecked the couple attacks thrown at me. So beefy.
To tie it in with my first comment on gas, I'd almost rather get a robo for an observer and possibly adding immortals in down the road before getting Blink and enough Stalkers for it to matter. Initially at least.
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On June 29 2011 20:56 burn man wrote:
If you are going zelot archon as the original post suggested after getting weapon ups would you get armor for your zelots or shield for you archons?
When I've played around with this composition, I usually get Shield. By the time you get +3 Weapons, you should be on 3-4 bases and dropping the extra 100 gas for Shield upgrades shouldn't hurt your Archon count too much. Remember Zealots are affected by Shield upgrades too, and while they're not normally more effective than armor upgrades, I think the inclusion of Archons in the comp changes that.
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hilariously enough... this counter's Destiny's 6 infestor timing style like a charm XDDDD
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What about if you go for dark shrine instead of templar archives? Sacrifice your zealot count in order to get a few more archons? This will probably suck againts a more roach heavy composition, but just wondering. Also, you could drop a stargate with the saved gas and apply map control, forcing him to get hydra den/spire, which will make your achons have a hayday.
On July 22 2011 04:28 ShatterZer0 wrote:
hilariously enough... this counter's Destiny's 6 infestor timing style like a charm XDDDD
Yes with a lot of zerg players going early infestors + roach-ling, HT is somewhat a must have.
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although i do this build because i really like my archons and my zelots its very weak against pure roach and they just kite your zelots. this strat is weak in maps where you can forge FE. much better on maps where u 3 gate sentry expand cuz u can FF the roaches and the zelots and archons will destroy them
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honestly archon zealot is OP as shit
its viable in all 3 match ups unfortunately
theres no true counter for this unit comp in ZvP which is complete bullshit
roach hydra gets wrecked cuz zealots are so damn fast and archons do like 40000000 dmg on zerg units -.-
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You sure know what you are talking about
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EPT
