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[D]PvZ Archon build - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Kaelaris
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom788 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 04:13:01
May 14 2011 04:11 GMT
#21
I actually used to do something very similar before patch hit in PvZ (at a low masters level so don't blitz me for the validity of my bad play).

<-- video to prove i'm not lying xD

Basically I would open DT harass into +3 weaps asap, then just crush through Zerg, even then with 2 range I found it to be really strong, since everything of Zergs is Biological. Haven't had chance to do it with 3 range but I bet it's epic.
CommentatorESL Commentator ♞ Facebook.com/Kaelaris ♞ Twitter.com/Kaelaris ♞ Youtube.com/Kaelaris ♞ Twitch.tv/Kaelaris
Kaiz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States17 Posts
May 14 2011 04:27 GMT
#22
My current standard for ZvP is ling-infestor and I've had a couple people try this unit comp when their DT rush failed. I can definitely see the strengths of the build but it definitely has some holes if you engage purely with zealots and archons (against ling infestor anyways).

The lack of ranged units means you aren't going to be able to snipe Infestors that use NP on the Archons...and Archons do pretty well against clumped Zealots.

Somewhat off-topic but I wonder if a phoenix lift would interrupt NP and if so, zealots and archons with a couple phoenix tossed into the mix could work wonders against ling infestor.
proxY_
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1561 Posts
May 14 2011 04:27 GMT
#23
I'm not sure what a great counter to this is after it gets up. The zerg probably does have a timing though where they can overwhelm with drop or nydus if the toss is spending that much res cannoning his front.

Mass neural parasite would do pretty well as 5 or 6 archons with neural on would tear through the chargelots, it depends on the map architecture. The toss is going to be low on range units here too so if you had 10 or so fungals to spare coupled with hydra dps that could be good. Of course if they're going templar with their army they can just feedback to their heart's content.

The archons one shot broodlings + splash so that really hurts the utility of the brood lords though the tech is obviously still viable. Broodlings to soak damage while hydras or roaches attack sounds good.

If you try to roll a ton of banelings into this (like 50+) what are the results? I think you would probably need 15 or so banes to kill one archon but if they're splashing everything there's a tipping point. The toss is going to be low on forcefields but the archons should one shot the banelings and the banelings don't do any bonus damage to them obviously. I'm not sure how big the baneling splash radius is. If you think about it 12 banes is 300 gas which is around the same gas cost as one archon so that's not as unreasonable as it sounds. Baneling drops would be ideal but as the OP mentioned the archons kill overlords so fast. This build doesn't spare gas for robo tech though so baneling landmines would be really good here.

It's just one of those builds that's ridiculously silly but at the same time it looks to be really hard to stop, at least for zerg terran should have no problem as they can go mass ghost + emp. It seems like a very easy build to execute too which makes me qq lol. I wonder if a variant of this unit comp is viable pvp.
lim1017
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1278 Posts
May 14 2011 04:37 GMT
#24
I've been getting arcons lately vs muta ling bane. Vs hydra roach its still not really worth it to specifically get arcons
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 04:51:17
May 14 2011 04:38 GMT
#25
On May 14 2011 12:32 iamke55 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2011 12:31 Saechiis wrote:
On May 14 2011 12:24 MrBitter wrote:
ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuu, now I have to see this crap on ladder too.

I was facepalming at State of the Game tonight when everyone wrote the archon change off as inconsequential.

This is a very frustrating kind of thing to deal with for this reason:

Everyone knows a Protoss deathball is hell to deal with. Corruptors suck! Seriously.

Against this unit composition, the deathball is just as effective (if not more so) and now Zerg doesn't have a unit (even a bad one) capable of really challenging the major damage dealer: the archon.


Pure upgraded Roach does pretty well vs Zealot/ Archon. Gonna be tough with stormers and immortals mixed in though. Muta's might be good too, but you'll be really vulnerable to a timing.


Watch replays thx


Watched your winning replays, the one vs MrBitter was kinda inconclusive since you were ahead the entire game, so I'm not gonna say anything about that.

I think Gerbil did a pretty good job, but he had Infestors and Hydra's mixed in which is not useful vs this imo. I forgot Archons got some extra range though, which is really helping them in large scale battles. Plus they're so supply efficient that they just run through everything once they hit a critical mass, which is the roach's weakness. It think it's the fact that all zealots die for Aiur while the Archons survive and replenish all their shields what makes this strong. In the engagements I watched your supply dropped about equally to Zerg's but your expensive Archons survived most engagaments, becoming exponentially stronger every time.

Against Shoey, he kinda went ling baneling into roach hydra, didn't like it particularly, but he had you on the ropes with the baneling bombs killing all your zealots. Had he not gotten hydra's he might have won that big engagement decisively. Plus 2 Archons 2-shot hydra's and Zealots slaughter them as well, I think hydra's are just really bad overall unless Toss goes heavy Stargate.

I think all games clearly exposed vulnerability through not having observers, which your opponents unfortunately didn't really cash in on. Really need to get a Robo in there somewhere, sprinkling some immortals isn't gonna hurt either since they do fine against banelings, roaches and infestors and they have higher range than the zealot archon.

About not getting Storm, do you feel it is useless against Zerg mobility? Or were you just experimenting with spending all your gas on Archons? Nvm: just read carefully

I think esports is pretty nice.
insom89
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada13 Posts
May 14 2011 04:43 GMT
#26
I'm guessing jaedong vs nal ra?? I just really want those 10 billion points!
d3_crescentia
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4054 Posts
May 14 2011 05:06 GMT
#27
My friend and I have been trying this composition in teams over the past few days just (t)rolling people. It's absolutely so devastating it got me thinking that this could be a viable 1v1 composition - even in PvT or PvP, though this is to say nothing regarding what viable builds exist to get to there.
once, not long ago, there was a moon here
Sweetness.751
Profile Joined April 2011
United States225 Posts
May 14 2011 05:13 GMT
#28
Ive been playing around with something similar to this. Basically double robo immortals with zealots stalkers and Archon/DTs off 3 bases. But i will warn you:

The easiest way for Zerg to win is with broodlords and roaches. Or broodlords with hydras if they have the gas. There is no way Toss can shoot the broodlords w/o Stalkers w/ blink or Viods because the brood lings will prevent the Archon from getting close enough (BW did not have this problem with Guardians). High Templars may be able to storm the broods but its unlikely. Basically the composition is strong but it tends to stagnate if you don't outright kill the Zerg econ. There needs to be a tech switch to 2-3 Viods and/or Mothership to protect your army from the Broodlord range advantage.
Elentos wrote: Do you think only 10 life points more for Viking is enough bObA wrote: 10 life points is all you need to send someone to the Shadow Realm.
PowerDes
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States520 Posts
May 14 2011 05:22 GMT
#29
Wouldn't be surprised to see phoenix/dt next...

Great work.
twitch.tv/PowerDes
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
May 14 2011 05:31 GMT
#30
Picture looks like from Tempest vs Aria from rep section.

2archon +1 speedlot build from sc1 might interest you:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=84601
Timing was ~8min, so sc2 thats what 12min attack?

Sure the only real pressure early is timing where you get +1/speed/first couple archons.
For scouting hallucination, or even stargate. Besides that all you have is probes or units.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
May 14 2011 05:40 GMT
#31
Ding ding ding, we have a winner! How did you find it though? I couldn't find it using the search function on the replay section so I had to ask Ares[Effort] to go look for it for me. He gave me a link from another website.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
May 14 2011 05:51 GMT
#32
On May 14 2011 13:38 Saechiis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2011 12:32 iamke55 wrote:
On May 14 2011 12:31 Saechiis wrote:
On May 14 2011 12:24 MrBitter wrote:
ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuu, now I have to see this crap on ladder too.

I was facepalming at State of the Game tonight when everyone wrote the archon change off as inconsequential.

This is a very frustrating kind of thing to deal with for this reason:

Everyone knows a Protoss deathball is hell to deal with. Corruptors suck! Seriously.

Against this unit composition, the deathball is just as effective (if not more so) and now Zerg doesn't have a unit (even a bad one) capable of really challenging the major damage dealer: the archon.


Pure upgraded Roach does pretty well vs Zealot/ Archon. Gonna be tough with stormers and immortals mixed in though. Muta's might be good too, but you'll be really vulnerable to a timing.


Watch replays thx


Watched your winning replays, the one vs MrBitter was kinda inconclusive since you were ahead the entire game, so I'm not gonna say anything about that.

I think Gerbil did a pretty good job, but he had Infestors and Hydra's mixed in which is not useful vs this imo. I forgot Archons got some extra range though, which is really helping them in large scale battles. Plus they're so supply efficient that they just run through everything once they hit a critical mass, which is the roach's weakness. It think it's the fact that all zealots die for Aiur while the Archons survive and replenish all their shields what makes this strong. In the engagements I watched your supply dropped about equally to Zerg's but your expensive Archons survived most engagaments, becoming exponentially stronger every time.

Against Shoey, he kinda went ling baneling into roach hydra, didn't like it particularly, but he had you on the ropes with the baneling bombs killing all your zealots. Had he not gotten hydra's he might have won that big engagement decisively. Plus 2 Archons 2-shot hydra's and Zealots slaughter them as well, I think hydra's are just really bad overall unless Toss goes heavy Stargate.

I think all games clearly exposed vulnerability through not having observers, which your opponents unfortunately didn't really cash in on. Really need to get a Robo in there somewhere, sprinkling some immortals isn't gonna hurt either since they do fine against banelings, roaches and infestors and they have higher range than the zealot archon.

About not getting Storm, do you feel it is useless against Zerg mobility? Or were you just experimenting with spending all your gas on Archons? Nvm: just read carefully


This is completely wrong. We spent the entire day testing it against random compositions, and the two things that worked were muta/ling/baneling and roach/hydra with a good number of hydras (you need to be able to pick off some archons) -> broodlord if engaged in favorable positions. What didn't work was:
Mass roach (archons don't die to roaches)
Roach baneling (again, archons don't die to roaches)
What we didn't try yet was mass infestor with NP.
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 06:04:29
May 14 2011 06:02 GMT
#33
Its there, search pvz on Arcadia and only 3games come up

Main thing I'm interested in is seeing someone fit the build components together for a strong timing attack 10-12min 2-4archon maybe +2wep even with boosts. Then possible transitions.

I would think hydra/roach is the way to go vs this, but it actually looks close.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
May 14 2011 06:15 GMT
#34
On May 14 2011 14:51 Saracen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2011 13:38 Saechiis wrote:
On May 14 2011 12:32 iamke55 wrote:
On May 14 2011 12:31 Saechiis wrote:
On May 14 2011 12:24 MrBitter wrote:
ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuu, now I have to see this crap on ladder too.

I was facepalming at State of the Game tonight when everyone wrote the archon change off as inconsequential.

This is a very frustrating kind of thing to deal with for this reason:

Everyone knows a Protoss deathball is hell to deal with. Corruptors suck! Seriously.

Against this unit composition, the deathball is just as effective (if not more so) and now Zerg doesn't have a unit (even a bad one) capable of really challenging the major damage dealer: the archon.


Pure upgraded Roach does pretty well vs Zealot/ Archon. Gonna be tough with stormers and immortals mixed in though. Muta's might be good too, but you'll be really vulnerable to a timing.


Watch replays thx


Watched your winning replays, the one vs MrBitter was kinda inconclusive since you were ahead the entire game, so I'm not gonna say anything about that.

I think Gerbil did a pretty good job, but he had Infestors and Hydra's mixed in which is not useful vs this imo. I forgot Archons got some extra range though, which is really helping them in large scale battles. Plus they're so supply efficient that they just run through everything once they hit a critical mass, which is the roach's weakness. It think it's the fact that all zealots die for Aiur while the Archons survive and replenish all their shields what makes this strong. In the engagements I watched your supply dropped about equally to Zerg's but your expensive Archons survived most engagaments, becoming exponentially stronger every time.

Against Shoey, he kinda went ling baneling into roach hydra, didn't like it particularly, but he had you on the ropes with the baneling bombs killing all your zealots. Had he not gotten hydra's he might have won that big engagement decisively. Plus 2 Archons 2-shot hydra's and Zealots slaughter them as well, I think hydra's are just really bad overall unless Toss goes heavy Stargate.

I think all games clearly exposed vulnerability through not having observers, which your opponents unfortunately didn't really cash in on. Really need to get a Robo in there somewhere, sprinkling some immortals isn't gonna hurt either since they do fine against banelings, roaches and infestors and they have higher range than the zealot archon.

About not getting Storm, do you feel it is useless against Zerg mobility? Or were you just experimenting with spending all your gas on Archons? Nvm: just read carefully


This is completely wrong. We spent the entire day testing it against random compositions, and the two things that worked were muta/ling/baneling and roach/hydra with a good number of hydras (you need to be able to pick off some archons) -> broodlord if engaged in favorable positions. What didn't work was:
Mass roach (archons don't die to roaches)
Roach baneling (again, archons don't die to roaches)
What we didn't try yet was mass infestor with NP.


I'd love to see more replays, but I really don't see how hydra's would work against this. I realize that it's imperative to actually kill the Archons since they quickly regain all their HP, but +2 archon/ zealot rips through them SO fast. Then again, maybe it is more efficient for the Zerg to trade armies as much as possible as gas is the limiting factor with this composition.
I think esports is pretty nice.
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
May 14 2011 06:26 GMT
#35
yeahhhhhhh neural parasite can hurt, fungal's annoying too so you definitely ought to bring some HTs along for feedback as well as psi storm.

I'd also recommend throwing in a robo and a couple observers, I know that's wasted gas but it's nice being able to kill creep and I don't see any other way to deal with roach/infestor burrow.
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 06:34:19
May 14 2011 06:32 GMT
#36
and yah broodlords are real good vs archon/zealot, the archons just have no way to get through the broodlings and hit the broodlords

Also obv mutas melt to archons, but archons aren't mobile enough to stop muta harass. The answer as toss is to just go attack and kill the zerg, but if some clever Z can figure out a way to both muta harass and survive the attack, that might be useful.
Darkthorn
Profile Joined September 2010
Romania912 Posts
May 14 2011 06:32 GMT
#37
The archon chargelot composition is pretty thought even from one base protoss after a fail DT rush if the zerg makes roaches as they get demolished really fast by this.
RedChaos
Profile Joined November 2010
United States36 Posts
May 14 2011 15:08 GMT
#38
I have been very interested in this and have been trying and testing it a lot, and i've come to realize that the strength of the build is the super supply efficiency of archons when compared to roaches or hydras (for example a single archon easily beats 2 roaches or 2 hydras, especially with the attack upgrades of this build). So I don't think the zlots here play much of a role except to fill up supply and be a mineral sink, and what the true goal is is a 200/200 army of pure archons (which isnt practical or feasible in an actual match i dont think).

So while this is extremely strong, its only weakness is if the zerg forgets roaches and hydras, and instead simply masses banelings. As stupid as this may sound, the idea for the zerg (who will be on many more bases than you) is to simply trade armies, which roaches and hydras cant accomplish here. While banes might not seem great against archons, they evaporate the zlots, and in enough numbers will easily eliminate the archons too, thereby winning the game. (This is the only way my relatively high masters zerg friend has beaten this, but he won easily with it).

I would suggest in this case to research storm and include maybe 5 HTs with enough energy in your army, that way when you see banes you can carpet storm them, save your archons, and steamroll through any reinforcements the zerg makes and win.
"You tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is 'never try.'" - Homer Simpson
copacetic
Profile Joined November 2010
56 Posts
May 14 2011 15:20 GMT
#39
lol @ beating guys from VT in attempt to prove a build is good O___________o

User was warned for this post
Daimiru
Profile Joined May 2011
74 Posts
May 14 2011 15:36 GMT
#40
I was watching MrBitter's stream like, the entire time this was going on and it was awesome. I've been trying to do it on the ladder ever since, so thanks for the timings.

It seems like the Zerg compositions that are most effective against this (in particular muta/ling, but also hydras) have a lot of units that exploit your total lack of armor. Have you considered buying shield upgrades, maybe before +3 weapons?
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