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On April 18 2011 06:10 Unwardil wrote:
I dunno, it would require testing obviously, but I'm pretty sure in one of the replays shown on Day9's thing, the Protoss player did get a stargate, got phoenix and voidrays and got completely roflstomp't. Spanishiwa responded with extra queens and spinecrawlers and expanded cross map to abuse the slow movement speed of the voidrays and with the nydus connecting them, could reinforce with additional queens no problem.
I could be remembering two games at the same time and combining them in my head though.
yea but air comes into its own against this build in the late game because he doesnt very often get a spire or hydra den so it you were to get alot of air units without him knowing it would be very deadly.
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But he would know, because he also gets very aggressive with drops and nydus harass in the mid game, so if you play too defensively and go mass air, he just straight up kills you with his ground forces.
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Mm, the day9 replays didn't show any phoenix play nor dt play whatsoever I believe. The game you're thinking about is probably the first, where the protoss was completely passive, took his natural relatively late and just got outmacro'd massively. Especially after the baneling drops.
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Canada13410 Posts
ive been trying to practice in my spare time with cannon placements and forge fast expands on every ladder map. if i can safely forge fe on every map and scout a hatch first i can deny or delay the hatchery with cannons easily. i can also try and get a solid lead with a faster expo if the z goes pool first and usnt playing the spanishiwa style.
thats my current response but with exams havent had much chance to fully explore this option.
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On April 18 2011 06:22 adaptablefuton wrote:
yea but air comes into its own against this build in the late game because he doesnt very often get a spire or hydra den so it you were to get alot of air units without him knowing it would be very deadly.
From his OP, Spanish shows how to adapt to stargate play: Forge FE into double stargate harass
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On April 18 2011 07:10 shuckyducky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:22 adaptablefuton wrote:
yea but air comes into its own against this build in the late game because he doesnt very often get a spire or hydra den so it you were to get alot of air units without him knowing it would be very deadly. From his OP, Spanish shows how to adapt to stargate play: Forge FE into double stargate harass
yea which makes it rely heavily on him not scouting which he will because of his nydus play and overlord scouts.
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I've been playing this build for a few weeks now, and I think a combination of early pressure + early expand might be the best way to counter this. For instance, if you opened barracks and scout no gas + an early spine, you might want to chrono out some zealot/stalkers and attack him. At that early stage of the game, you force your opponent to make lings/spines, to fight with drones and generally delaying his mass droning. During all this, you expand in what would normally be a risky way, but with such a delayed ling speed your opponent's ability to counter would be greatly reduced.
I saw Sheth playing against this build in a zvz the other day. When he saw no gas and a spine in production (he went with a speedling expand), he expanded to his third before his natural was even done morphing, and made a bunch of speedlings to attack his opponent. For his opponent, he doesn't know if his opponent is going all in (hard to scout without ling speed), so he has to prepare for the worst (thus slowing his economy) while his opponent can go hardcore on the econ.
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From what I've read in this thread (Will test as soon as I have time) the most viable openings seem to me mentioned were the blink mentioned in your OP, but even more promising, the classic 2-gate opener. With such late speed, if you could figure out early timings for spine crawlers, you could have 4-6 zeals in their base already, with a few to block the ramp almost indefinitely. Will test this as soon as I come across a zerg who uses this strategy.
EDIT: for protoss anyway, haha, don't have enough experience with the other races.
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Some thoughts:
Cannon rush is virtually undefendable with hatch first.
A midgame air heavy build should provide map control and allow P get a safe 3rd and 4th.
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The counter is to expand after your first gate instead of getting 3 gate ^^
It just forces a much faster macro game - he doesn't have speedlings so he cant deny your expo if you go 1 gate FE and then you can add your 2 gates much later than usual
Scariest build imho is hatch first WITH the gas since if you try yo expand too early zerg can shut you down, with this build he cant
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I haven't faced the Spanishwa build very much, but I will 1 gate expand against it on maps like Shakuras where the natural is reasonable easily defendable and 2 more gates and a forge can do a tight wall-in of the natural. Its not like a huge wad of slow lings can sneak up on you if you are on top of scouting. and this gives you tons of gas to "tech rush" with. I usually like dts since I will end up with archons, they provide map control (unless zerg wants to have like 6 roving overseers) and I'm always learing of going for mass stalkers v mass ling.
As for VoirDire, I don't think air is the way to go at all. Unless you plan on lifting lings/blings with Phoenix or you can take your 3rd and 4th in areas with chokes near your natural (i.e. again on Shakuras the 3rd and the rock blocked bases), there is no way that void rays are going to be able to keep up with roving speedlings and if you split them, the speedlings can probably just cut in and do the damage, similar to the way Mondragon just counters everything by attacking with more roaches in more places.
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could you sneak DTs into the zerg base and morph them into archons to just decimate any zerglings or will you not have enough to do this early enough
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Fast DTs. Unless your opponent has Spores, there will be no detection.
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the problem with DTs is that the build hinges on fast double evo so chances are he will have spores and by the time he wants to take a third he will have detection however you you sneak them past the spores it could work very well.
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Lately I've been doing nothing but Spanishiwa's Build in ZvP. I play random so I've only gotten it 6 times but so far I'm 5-1. I've held off everything from cannon rushes to huge death balls. The only time I lost is when he got a critical mass of void rays in the late, late game after we had traded armies half a dozen times. I definitely made some mistakes but I think mass air has some viability against this build.
After reading the posts though I agree that Archons seem like a great choice against this build. an Archon / Void ray army would absolutely decimate this build in a straight up fight (with excess minerals spent on cannons and chargelots to absorb baneling shots.) Next time a Zerg uses this build and I roll Protoss I'll try it out. The problem is surviving until you can get enough Archons and Void Rays without falling too far behind in the base count.
Absolutely under no circumstances should you go the traditional Colossus ball against this build! This build is specifically designed to capitalize on how units in the Colossus ball stack on each other, maximizing baneling damage.
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Lots of expos with lots of probes... then maybe like voidray/templar
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Actually, yeah, dark templar harass into archons sounds like a really good way to respond. If you're making archons out of dark templar, they're actually not prohibitively gas heavy, such that you absolutely need more than 2 base to make them viable and you can save a bit of that gas by cutting the armor upgrade, which is going to be useless against banelings anyway.
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its quite easy unless u are a noob
tech up and expand no need for units if he has wouen and spines
later play normal cause he is zerg and zerg sucks
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I've been using his build essentially since the friggin' beta (the opening at least, not the mid-late game) with 4 queen no gas, making lots of drones then getting all gasses (sometimes I only get 3) around 40 supply. Never get any credit since I'm not good enough to popularize a build  .
Either way the build sets you up for a macro game yes, but how many ZvP do you see with Zerg having a huge macro advantage? Nearly every single one, it's not uncommon even for Zerg to max when toss is at 120 supply. Besides preference (I like it, obviously), I don't think it's that revolutionary compared to many other builds that are macro oriented. Works even better in ZvT because the two extra queens allow for mad creep spreads.
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On April 18 2011 13:54 Rexar123 wrote:
its quite easy unless u are a noob
tech up and expand no need for units if he has wouen and spines
later play normal cause he is zerg and zerg sucks
I'm pretty sure this guy is just a troll. A good bit of his previous comments are just him bad mouthing other players or using bad grammar when asking questions.
Anyway, I like spanishiwa's build. It makes for interesting game play and viewing. It being susceptible to some other builds doesn't mean it's a bad build; it just means the ice fisher build needs to find counters to those builds. If it can find counters = a good build. If not, oh well.
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EPT
