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I've been finding that against any Zerg opening or build that delays tech is really weak to twilight tech compared to robo tech. For example ling/bling openings aimed at taking an early third for very cheap are really good against robo armies until Protoss gets up their mass. Or Spanishiwa's opening which kills you if you ram your head into it, imagine if you made blind immortals and attacked 
DT can punish a late Lair badly and let you have absolute control over all map movements. DT and Templar both give you access to Archons which destroy ling/baneling so hard I've laughed out loud during ladder games with a 200/200 army of ling/baneling kills like an immortal and 3 archons. Also storm is much faster to get after the patch since I've been forced to use Templar in a different way (probably the way the design intended them to be used).
Blink is also super useful being able to position your stalkers behind the overlord drops or masses of stuff, using archons/immortals for tanking the banelings.
Note: I usually have immortals against delayed tech builds PvZ because if you don't you'll die to a roach or ultralisk tech switch. Having immortals, voidrays, and high templars is the ultimate composition of P units, and I don't honestly know how you can beat it once a Protoss gets it.
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On April 17 2011 19:26 Morfildur wrote:
I actually don't think that mass expanding is a good idea against this strategy. Against that BO, yes, it's good - but against the overall strategy, 4 bases are a lot of ground to cover against the constant harass. The main point is not the late gas timing but the strategy that it leads into.
Also, Blink Stalker harass can be denied by queens, slowlings and 1-2 spinecrawlers until speedling tech is finished. It will do some damage, yes, but i don't think it can do enough as queens can transfuse each other and any focussed building while drones should be covered by a spine crawler.
Yes, queens have to run around a lot, but since you should have good creep spread with the extra queens you should be able to see from where the stalkers come and position them accordingly. The rest is up to whoever has the better micro.
This is a very astute observation. I think the greediness needs to be in tech, not expos. I think a one bases collosus push could really hurt this build as long you get thermal lance and a couple collo with zealot support. You can outrange the spines and drain the queens energy. Zerglings will not be able to attack your army either.
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On April 18 2011 03:20 CecilSunkure wrote:I've been finding that against any Zerg opening or build that delays tech is really weak to twilight tech compared to robo tech. For example ling/bling openings aimed at taking an early third for very cheap are really good against robo armies until Protoss gets up their mass. Or Spanishiwa's opening which kills you if you ram your head into it, imagine if you made blind immortals and attacked DT can punish a late Lair badly and let you have absolute control over all map movements. DT and Templar both give you access to Archons which destroy ling/baneling so hard I've laughed out loud during ladder games with a 200/200 army of ling/baneling kills like an immortal and 3 archons. Also storm is much faster to get after the patch since I've been forced to use Templar in a different way (probably the way the design intended them to be used). Blink is also super useful being able to position your stalkers behind the overlord drops or masses of stuff, using archons/immortals for tanking the banelings. Note: I usually have immortals against delayed tech builds PvZ because if you don't you'll die to a roach or ultralisk tech switch. Having immortals, voidrays, and high templars is the ultimate composition of P units, and I don't honestly know how you can beat it once a Protoss gets it.
Or even massed void rays are very difficult to dela with cause they just one shot everything. On the other hand, having a critical mass of these type units and having too few units that you get rolled is a fine line. I think it may be stretching it to get all three of these against this build beacue the harass will keep you from running off of 3 or 4 bases effectively since those units are all very slow. I think perhaps void ray zealot could work, but I think that getting HT to protect the immortals would just take too long and too many resources against this kind of hardcore harass.
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Toss can just pylon block and put one cannon in his natural, maybe even two.
If I could put spine crawlers anywhere I wanted surely I would "spine block" your natural, so why not do it to us? forge FE into a 5/6gate seems like the best way to beat this anyhow, so why not take it a step further?
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What i like to do when im playing against any drone heavy zerg ( spanishiwa build being a macro heavy build ) is get my 2nd at about 6:00 and then my 3rd at about 10-12 and just stay back on those bases with few cannons to defend vs any bling drops/ timing pushes, while i do that i can just get my 2 SG Void rays + 1 robo collosy and stalker zealot army to soak dmg, maybe dts for harras if the opponent is really greedy.
From what i see this build doesn't allow the zerg to attack until really late, so you can even harras him with the vr/phonenix to deny map control.
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On April 18 2011 02:59 iChau wrote:
What does the build look like? Is it easily scoutable?
Thanks. Just wondering so I know that I can DT rush or abuse some vulnerabilites.
My post gives a brief overview of it along with some known strengths and weaknesses
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On April 18 2011 03:20 CecilSunkure wrote:I've been finding that against any Zerg opening or build that delays tech is really weak to twilight tech compared to robo tech. For example ling/bling openings aimed at taking an early third for very cheap are really good against robo armies until Protoss gets up their mass. Or Spanishiwa's opening which kills you if you ram your head into it, imagine if you made blind immortals and attacked DT can punish a late Lair badly and let you have absolute control over all map movements. DT and Templar both give you access to Archons which destroy ling/baneling so hard I've laughed out loud during ladder games with a 200/200 army of ling/baneling kills like an immortal and 3 archons. Also storm is much faster to get after the patch since I've been forced to use Templar in a different way (probably the way the design intended them to be used). Blink is also super useful being able to position your stalkers behind the overlord drops or masses of stuff, using archons/immortals for tanking the banelings. Note: I usually have immortals against delayed tech builds PvZ because if you don't you'll die to a roach or ultralisk tech switch. Having immortals, voidrays, and high templars is the ultimate composition of P units, and I don't honestly know how you can beat it once a Protoss gets it.
the problem with DTs is that they often will have spore crawlers because they get an evo chamber relatively quickly. However from what everybody is saying it looks like archons and high temps are gunna be the best bet against this build.
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I know it's been mentioned, but Archons 1-shot zerglings. It also takes 18 or so banelings to take out a single archon, and splash doesn't really affect them because of the unit size. This means that an archon/chargelot/blink composition works. If you open with sentries, his banelings should never land. This gives you enough time to expand, which is crucial. (I think we've determined most 1-base cheese loses to his build.)
Once he gets ultras to break your FFs, you should have already been utilizing dt harass, so archons should be an easy transition (especially since you're floating gas at this point.) You should have 1-2 collosus and blink by the time you expand to your 3rd. Anyway, thats how I've dealt with it at mid-masters level protoss.
Also, this build is incredibly weak to forge FE. 6 gate +1 could steamroll unless he gets a large number of spines, and even then he probably can't protect his third.
I'm a fan of his and I think his build is solid, I just don't think any single opener is unbeatable, even with perfect control. If your opponent is committing to a gasless opening, you should abuse that and expand instantly.
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On April 18 2011 03:59 ObliviousNA wrote:
I know it's been mentioned, but Archons 1-shot zerglings. It also takes 18 or so banelings to take out a single archon, and splash doesn't really affect them because of the unit size. This means that an archon/chargelot/blink composition works. If you open with sentries, his banelings should never land. This gives you enough time to expand, which is crucial. (I think we've determined most 1-base cheese loses to his build.)
Once he gets ultras to break your FFs, you should have already been utilizing dt harass, so archons should be an easy transition (especially since you're floating gas at this point.) You should have 1-2 collosus and blink by the time you expand to your 3rd. Anyway, thats how I've dealt with it at mid-masters level protoss.
Also, this build is incredibly weak to forge FE. 6 gate +1 could steamroll unless he gets a large number of spines, and even then he probably can't protect his third.
I'm a fan of his and I think his build is solid, I just don't think any single opener is unbeatable, even with perfect control. If your opponent is committing to a gasless opening, you should abuse that and expand instantly.
I think that that is going to work out nicley now the second problem I kind of wanted to address is the bangling drops that he does, often he will send out 3 overlords to an expansion and inorder to defend it you have to stop it before it gets there because the can often pass static defense but the immobility of an archon ball means that it is hard to defend 3+ bases so I think we need to find a way to deal with that.
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If you go archons, you're gonna have to destroy him before he even drops. Like you said, archons are, well, not slow, but not mobile as well.
Including the fact that they're fat and they can't blink like stalkers, their AI is also kinda funky.
I tried cannons at my base, but then banelings hit the probes faster than cannons can kill.
I'm thinking map vision, an archon at each base + cannon, and move probes the INSTANT you see an overlord.
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I'm helluva scared of going forge FE in PvZ nowadays. It's so easy to just baneling bust that wall and stream speedlings in, and you're kind of making a blind commitment to walling off on the low ground when you FFE.
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On April 18 2011 04:11 iChau wrote:
If you go archons, you're gonna have to destroy him before he even drops. Like you said, archons are, well, not slow, but not mobile as well.
Including the fact that they're fat and they can't blink like stalkers, their AI is also kinda funky.
I tried cannons at my base, but then banelings hit the probes faster than cannons can kill.
I'm thinking map vision, an archon at each base + cannon, and move probes the INSTANT you see an overlord.
yea and I think the problem for me is that my mechanics are not the best so I often dont spot that red blip in the minimap however I think getting out a bunch of obs might work or even getting phoenix to intercept overlords before they get a chance to drop. However this is all theoretical its alot harder to do in game.
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On April 18 2011 03:57 adaptablefuton wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 03:20 CecilSunkure wrote:I've been finding that against any Zerg opening or build that delays tech is really weak to twilight tech compared to robo tech. For example ling/bling openings aimed at taking an early third for very cheap are really good against robo armies until Protoss gets up their mass. Or Spanishiwa's opening which kills you if you ram your head into it, imagine if you made blind immortals and attacked DT can punish a late Lair badly and let you have absolute control over all map movements. DT and Templar both give you access to Archons which destroy ling/baneling so hard I've laughed out loud during ladder games with a 200/200 army of ling/baneling kills like an immortal and 3 archons. Also storm is much faster to get after the patch since I've been forced to use Templar in a different way (probably the way the design intended them to be used). Blink is also super useful being able to position your stalkers behind the overlord drops or masses of stuff, using archons/immortals for tanking the banelings. Note: I usually have immortals against delayed tech builds PvZ because if you don't you'll die to a roach or ultralisk tech switch. Having immortals, voidrays, and high templars is the ultimate composition of P units, and I don't honestly know how you can beat it once a Protoss gets it. the problem with DTs is that they often will have spore crawlers because they get an evo chamber relatively quickly. However from what everybody is saying it looks like archons and high temps are gunna be the best bet against this build.
Spore crawlers can't take map control. You shouldn't read 1/2 of one of my sentences and respond to it and it alone.
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The proper use of Blink Stalkers by completely bypassing the spine crawler wall at a timing right before or just as the Zerg starts to get his gas can be devastating against this build I find. If you snipe the spawning pool it'll be tough for the Zerg to do anything against your giant Stalker ball.
You could attempt this early, off 1 base, before expanding, or likely more effectively, mid-game after having played very greedily before your Blink aggression. The Stalkers act as a contain by keeping Zerg army in his base, while you fully saturate your bases and get your higher tech production buildings and gateways up.
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I feel that you can be hyper aggressive and generally greedy against Spanishwa's build, just keep ahead on ground weapons to carapace upgrades and you'll be great off with a hyper techy army comp with effective zealot cannon fodder! Remember, Zealots, with +1 weapons ahead of carapace, are "cost effective" vs every zerg ground unit that isn't a roach or a hydra! (Yes, even ultralisks to a degree.)
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On April 18 2011 04:15 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 03:57 adaptablefuton wrote:On April 18 2011 03:20 CecilSunkure wrote:I've been finding that against any Zerg opening or build that delays tech is really weak to twilight tech compared to robo tech. For example ling/bling openings aimed at taking an early third for very cheap are really good against robo armies until Protoss gets up their mass. Or Spanishiwa's opening which kills you if you ram your head into it, imagine if you made blind immortals and attacked DT can punish a late Lair badly and let you have absolute control over all map movements. DT and Templar both give you access to Archons which destroy ling/baneling so hard I've laughed out loud during ladder games with a 200/200 army of ling/baneling kills like an immortal and 3 archons. Also storm is much faster to get after the patch since I've been forced to use Templar in a different way (probably the way the design intended them to be used). Blink is also super useful being able to position your stalkers behind the overlord drops or masses of stuff, using archons/immortals for tanking the banelings. Note: I usually have immortals against delayed tech builds PvZ because if you don't you'll die to a roach or ultralisk tech switch. Having immortals, voidrays, and high templars is the ultimate composition of P units, and I don't honestly know how you can beat it once a Protoss gets it. the problem with DTs is that they often will have spore crawlers because they get an evo chamber relatively quickly. However from what everybody is saying it looks like archons and high temps are gunna be the best bet against this build. Spore crawlers can't take map control. You shouldn't read 1/2 of one of my sentences and respond to it and it alone.
Sorry I have been skimming over most of these comments and didn't fully read the part about map control. I'll start to fully read the comments before responding. :S
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Well, I know what works against it from the Terran side cause I've done it several times. The good old Marine, marauder and some mech (hellions and tanks/thors) with stim push. That's a pretty safe thing to do anyway upon scouting no ling speed, because it could just as easily be a roach bust and marauders with stim totally pwn roaches.
From the protoss, I'd think that immortals would be the ticket from your most common openings. If you go any number of gates into expand, typically a robo is the next thing you want to get. If you haven't seen any zergling speed by the time you get your gate, chronoboost out 2 immortals, warp in only zealots for support and go kill him, cause man, spine crawlers are 100% useless against immortals and zealots, regardless of how many transfuses can be used on them. Blast down the spinecrawler defending the ramp to the main and flood into his base and kill 100% of his probes there. That should even up the economic lead afforded to the zerg by the spanishiwa opening. Also, conveniently, immortals and zealots are still really good against slow roaches.
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Maybe I just missed it, but I think a lot of people are ignoring the weakest link of this play style, the overlords. This style relies extremely heavily on getting map vision through overlords for drops, nydus networks, zergling flanks, and counter attacks. Due to the complete lack of pressure until lair is done, the protoss can almost completely skip sentries, and instead devote that gas to a stargate with a handful of phoenixes. The only anti air the zerg wants to build at this point is queens, and unless you are extremely lax about holding back the creep spread, the queens won't be able to provide any sort of anti air protection.
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On April 18 2011 05:52 brainpower wrote:
Maybe I just missed it, but I think a lot of people are ignoring the weakest link of this play style, the overlords. This style relies extremely heavily on getting map vision through overlords for drops, nydus networks, zergling flanks, and counter attacks. Due to the complete lack of pressure until lair is done, the protoss can almost completely skip sentries, and instead devote that gas to a stargate with a handful of phoenixes. The only anti air the zerg wants to build at this point is queens, and unless you are extremely lax about holding back the creep spread, the queens won't be able to provide any sort of anti air protection.
That is a very good point because i suppose if you can even supply block him his build cannot progress.
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I dunno, it would require testing obviously, but I'm pretty sure in one of the replays shown on Day9's thing, the Protoss player did get a stargate, got phoenix and voidrays and got completely roflstomp't. Spanishiwa responded with extra queens and spinecrawlers and expanded cross map to abuse the slow movement speed of the voidrays and with the nydus connecting them, could reinforce with additional queens no problem.
I could be remembering two games at the same time and combining them in my head though.
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EPT
