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On April 17 2011 19:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I think the way minigun played it on typhon peaks was a good start, but he could have been greedier. He put down a 2nd and 3rd gate before taking his natural, this was unnecessary. So the best way in my opinion (also depends a bit on map): chrono zealot+stalker, walk to his natural, try to snipe a drone or some lings and force some lings/spine crawlers. I am not sure whether its better to get a 2nd stalker or a sentry after (i dont have that much knowledge about P), but i think its best to just expand off 1 gate and fall back with your zealot stalker once it gets too dangerous. Then add more gates and just walk forward (by this i mean, clean watchtower in the middle of the map and then just run back) a bit or run in front of his crawlers and then run back (just to force maybe 1-2 more crawlers and some lings) and take a third relatively quickly. be careful not to get your probelines bombed by banelings and maybe add 1-2 cannons per mineral line once you see that he actually went for fast drop upgrade. Build pylons at the edges of your base to spot nydusworms or incoming drops.
Once youre on three bases you should definitely get blink (if you havent already) and damage/armor upgrades (maybe better to start with the dmg/armor ups a bit earlier than that, but again, i dont have that much experience with protoss. You kinda have a couple of choices then, You can just go colossus blinkstalker, or go colossus voidray stalker. It is important that when you go colossus stalker that you push when you see him teching to hive, as this can be beaten by infestor broodlord + groundstuff (roachhydrazergling). If you go colossus voidray stalker you can also just take a fourth and add templars (to feedback infestors and storm corruptors) and a mothership. In the latter case i guess you can just push once youre at 200 supply.
Colossus/Voidray doesn't fair too well against this build as it has a LOT more Infestors than regular Zerg armies. This build works amazingly well at killing "Deathballs" but falls apart in a war of attrition against High Templar, Storm just does so amazingly well against lings. I've never ever had success with trying to rely on one big 200/200 army to win the game, it didn't really work unless I managed to get a huge lead. But then again, I'm pretty bad 
The way Response was playing against Spanishiwa whilst Spanish was streaming was probably the best way IMO, being super greedy with bases + Cannons, double forge and doing High Templar/DT drops to keep his larva tied between drones, without a spire there wasn't much he could do, a single Warp-Prism got free roam. Not sure if it was intended or not but he Psi-Stormed larva at some point, didn't even realize Psi-storm could kill larva 0o. He kept moving out with decent sized armies and after every battle he would fall back, eventually Spanishiwa ran out of larva to keep up with Response, Storm centric army just tears through Lings and Immortals do pretty darn well against Ultralisks.
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On April 17 2011 19:08 Dymeter wrote:
I know this is a longshot comming from a terran, but have you thought of early Warp Prism zealots to bypass his deffences and elevator to his main, and aswell negate the need of making proxy pylon since you have a mobile one, using mostly Zealots and some stalkers. It seems like a good idea to me, someone needs to try it to make sure.
A 4gate Robo would annihilate this build. You'd start by going 1gate Robo, then add on more Gateways while chrono the Warp Prism (and an Immortal, if you feel it's necessary). Then just pop on over to Zerg main and kill it.
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No. It's unbeatable. We can give up on Protoss.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Imo the only way to combat ling/bling with drop upgrade is going blink stalker. Any sentries/zealots are going to get baneling bombed anyway so a stalker/colossus deathball is what I would aim for. The only problem as I see it is that a colossus/stalker deathball gets absolutely demolished by 3-3 ultra/infestor with crackling support.
This build is really good and really fun aswell so I recommend all zerg players to try it out. Baneling bombs are devastating aswell since most players will not be able to react and all their probes will get obliterated, unless you play at a very high level.
I also think some people here underestimate the difficulty of defending against multi-pronged attacks. Your tactics resolve around 'take alot of bases and defend them all'. This build forces you to make mistakes. Defending against baneling bombs, burrowed infestors, nydus networks, ling runbys, ling drops while going 3 quick bases is not easy if the zerg is executing it well.
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On April 17 2011 21:22 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 19:08 Dymeter wrote:
I know this is a longshot comming from a terran, but have you thought of early Warp Prism zealots to bypass his deffences and elevator to his main, and aswell negate the need of making proxy pylon since you have a mobile one, using mostly Zealots and some stalkers. It seems like a good idea to me, someone needs to try it to make sure. A 4gate Robo would annihilate this build. You'd start by going 1gate Robo, then add on more Gateways while chrono the Warp Prism (and an Immortal, if you feel it's necessary). Then just pop on over to Zerg main and kill it.
No. I've seen games where spanishiwa defends vs a 4-gate with a hidden pylon in his main. It's stronger then a 4-gate robo since you don't need to build the warp prism or the robo. I think you are underestimating the power of alot of queens + spines with lings. It might be a strong build vs it, but it does not annihalate it.
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On April 17 2011 21:01 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 19:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I think the way minigun played it on typhon peaks was a good start, but he could have been greedier. He put down a 2nd and 3rd gate before taking his natural, this was unnecessary. So the best way in my opinion (also depends a bit on map): chrono zealot+stalker, walk to his natural, try to snipe a drone or some lings and force some lings/spine crawlers. I am not sure whether its better to get a 2nd stalker or a sentry after (i dont have that much knowledge about P), but i think its best to just expand off 1 gate and fall back with your zealot stalker once it gets too dangerous. Then add more gates and just walk forward (by this i mean, clean watchtower in the middle of the map and then just run back) a bit or run in front of his crawlers and then run back (just to force maybe 1-2 more crawlers and some lings) and take a third relatively quickly. be careful not to get your probelines bombed by banelings and maybe add 1-2 cannons per mineral line once you see that he actually went for fast drop upgrade. Build pylons at the edges of your base to spot nydusworms or incoming drops.
Once youre on three bases you should definitely get blink (if you havent already) and damage/armor upgrades (maybe better to start with the dmg/armor ups a bit earlier than that, but again, i dont have that much experience with protoss. You kinda have a couple of choices then, You can just go colossus blinkstalker, or go colossus voidray stalker. It is important that when you go colossus stalker that you push when you see him teching to hive, as this can be beaten by infestor broodlord + groundstuff (roachhydrazergling). If you go colossus voidray stalker you can also just take a fourth and add templars (to feedback infestors and storm corruptors) and a mothership. In the latter case i guess you can just push once youre at 200 supply. Colossus/Voidray doesn't fair too well against this build as it has a LOT more Infestors than regular Zerg armies. This build works amazingly well at killing "Deathballs" but falls apart in a war of attrition against High Templar, Storm just does so amazingly well against lings. I've never ever had success with trying to rely on one big 200/200 army to win the game, it didn't really work unless I managed to get a huge lead. But then again, I'm pretty bad The way Response was playing against Spanishiwa whilst Spanish was streaming was probably the best way IMO, being super greedy with bases + Cannons, double forge and doing High Templar/DT drops to keep his larva tied between drones, without a spire there wasn't much he could do, a single Warp-Prism got free roam. Not sure if it was intended or not but he Psi-Stormed larva at some point, didn't even realize Psi-storm could kill larva 0o. He kept moving out with decent sized armies and after every battle he would fall back, eventually Spanishiwa ran out of larva to keep up with Response, Storm centric army just tears through Lings and Immortals do pretty darn well against Ultralisks.
Quite possible that storms are better. As i said, i dont have that much experience with Protoss, i think the most important part is the small early pressure and quick expansion. What tech / unit composition you go for afterwards also depends on what the zerg is getting, so you need to scout with observer and/or hallucination and then react accordingly.
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It's banElings, not banglings.
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These are just my thoughts, I'm afraid I haven't had a chance to try it myself yet. I'm just not running into anyone using it on the EU ladder atm (haven't played since the day9 daily though).
Open with a rush to DT's while you're massproducing zealots and taking your natural. You may be tempted to pop a few sentries but they're not necessary, just stockpile the gas for DTs. Your DTs should be at his ramp no later than 7:15 to do as much damage as possible. Focus on killing drones if you're able, else the queens. Feel free to have one of your DTs whack the spinecrawlers to force the queens to not just run around. Transition into archons as soon as his detection comes up, with a lot of zealots and +1. Attack no later than 9:00 for full effect or banelings will be in play.
Alternatively, rush to a voidray and then constant production of phoenix (to match his constant queen production - 35s/1phoenix vs 50s/2queens so you need to chrono as much as possible) and simply don't produce anything out of the gateways except zealots. Use the air to pressure until 9:00 or so and then hit him hard with lots of zealots and lift all queens that still live with your phoenix while you kill the spinecrawlers and zerglings. If you don't have enough phoenix to lift all queens, focus on the ones that have the most energy.
In either strategy you should take your natural as soon as possible. 1gate expand is perfectly safe against this. Drop a forge and start +1 as you take your natural and one sheltered cannon to help with zerglings just in case he switches over into early aggression. But other than that you're perfectly safe.
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imho weaknesses of this build:
- low tec until gas taken (exploit: DTs, cloaked banshees)
- immobile (exploit: drops, find holes in spine defense, poke here and there, enforce more spines or permanent repositioning)
- no offense til nydus/drop (exploit: go heavy for economy while denying his 3rd)
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I'd be interested to see some hilariously gas intensive convergence of all Protoss tech trees to combat the late game. Zealot/Immortal/Templar (Feedback!)/Void Ray all the way! It's nice to see a Zerg try to break the mould in terms of strategy though, even if this just turns out to be nothing, which I sincerely hope it doesn't.
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someone did this against me and i rushed DT's and got them 6:30 and i won.
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On April 17 2011 21:01 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 19:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I think the way minigun played it on typhon peaks was a good start, but he could have been greedier. He put down a 2nd and 3rd gate before taking his natural, this was unnecessary. So the best way in my opinion (also depends a bit on map): chrono zealot+stalker, walk to his natural, try to snipe a drone or some lings and force some lings/spine crawlers. I am not sure whether its better to get a 2nd stalker or a sentry after (i dont have that much knowledge about P), but i think its best to just expand off 1 gate and fall back with your zealot stalker once it gets too dangerous. Then add more gates and just walk forward (by this i mean, clean watchtower in the middle of the map and then just run back) a bit or run in front of his crawlers and then run back (just to force maybe 1-2 more crawlers and some lings) and take a third relatively quickly. be careful not to get your probelines bombed by banelings and maybe add 1-2 cannons per mineral line once you see that he actually went for fast drop upgrade. Build pylons at the edges of your base to spot nydusworms or incoming drops.
Once youre on three bases you should definitely get blink (if you havent already) and damage/armor upgrades (maybe better to start with the dmg/armor ups a bit earlier than that, but again, i dont have that much experience with protoss. You kinda have a couple of choices then, You can just go colossus blinkstalker, or go colossus voidray stalker. It is important that when you go colossus stalker that you push when you see him teching to hive, as this can be beaten by infestor broodlord + groundstuff (roachhydrazergling). If you go colossus voidray stalker you can also just take a fourth and add templars (to feedback infestors and storm corruptors) and a mothership. In the latter case i guess you can just push once youre at 200 supply. Colossus/Voidray doesn't fair too well against this build as it has a LOT more Infestors than regular Zerg armies. This build works amazingly well at killing "Deathballs" but falls apart in a war of attrition against High Templar, Storm just does so amazingly well against lings. I've never ever had success with trying to rely on one big 200/200 army to win the game, it didn't really work unless I managed to get a huge lead. But then again, I'm pretty bad The way Response was playing against Spanishiwa whilst Spanish was streaming was probably the best way IMO, being super greedy with bases + Cannons, double forge and doing High Templar/DT drops to keep his larva tied between drones, without a spire there wasn't much he could do, a single Warp-Prism got free roam. Not sure if it was intended or not but he Psi-Stormed larva at some point, didn't even realize Psi-storm could kill larva 0o. He kept moving out with decent sized armies and after every battle he would fall back, eventually Spanishiwa ran out of larva to keep up with Response, Storm centric army just tears through Lings and Immortals do pretty darn well against Ultralisks.
A HT based army is definately better then a colossus based army against anything with ultra's and lings. The problem with a HT based army for me has been the loss of amulet and the blings though. Blings do pretty well against zealots with some upgrades and HT are much harder to use now without amulet. The entire reason this strat is doing well now is the removal of amulet and it is definately a great strat overal.
Spanishwa's no gas style seems unneccesary though. Why would you ever get a spinecrawler if you could just get earlier speedling tech instead.. In case of 14 hatching i could see a reason as it is troublesome to incorporate early gas into the build but in any other case it just doesn;t make sense. The lack of speedlings makes protoss free to roam the map as there is no real threat of a backstab or getting surrounded yet. This entire no gasstyle is just bad imo.
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On April 17 2011 23:28 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 21:01 Dommk wrote:On April 17 2011 19:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I think the way minigun played it on typhon peaks was a good start, but he could have been greedier. He put down a 2nd and 3rd gate before taking his natural, this was unnecessary. So the best way in my opinion (also depends a bit on map): chrono zealot+stalker, walk to his natural, try to snipe a drone or some lings and force some lings/spine crawlers. I am not sure whether its better to get a 2nd stalker or a sentry after (i dont have that much knowledge about P), but i think its best to just expand off 1 gate and fall back with your zealot stalker once it gets too dangerous. Then add more gates and just walk forward (by this i mean, clean watchtower in the middle of the map and then just run back) a bit or run in front of his crawlers and then run back (just to force maybe 1-2 more crawlers and some lings) and take a third relatively quickly. be careful not to get your probelines bombed by banelings and maybe add 1-2 cannons per mineral line once you see that he actually went for fast drop upgrade. Build pylons at the edges of your base to spot nydusworms or incoming drops.
Once youre on three bases you should definitely get blink (if you havent already) and damage/armor upgrades (maybe better to start with the dmg/armor ups a bit earlier than that, but again, i dont have that much experience with protoss. You kinda have a couple of choices then, You can just go colossus blinkstalker, or go colossus voidray stalker. It is important that when you go colossus stalker that you push when you see him teching to hive, as this can be beaten by infestor broodlord + groundstuff (roachhydrazergling). If you go colossus voidray stalker you can also just take a fourth and add templars (to feedback infestors and storm corruptors) and a mothership. In the latter case i guess you can just push once youre at 200 supply. Colossus/Voidray doesn't fair too well against this build as it has a LOT more Infestors than regular Zerg armies. This build works amazingly well at killing "Deathballs" but falls apart in a war of attrition against High Templar, Storm just does so amazingly well against lings. I've never ever had success with trying to rely on one big 200/200 army to win the game, it didn't really work unless I managed to get a huge lead. But then again, I'm pretty bad The way Response was playing against Spanishiwa whilst Spanish was streaming was probably the best way IMO, being super greedy with bases + Cannons, double forge and doing High Templar/DT drops to keep his larva tied between drones, without a spire there wasn't much he could do, a single Warp-Prism got free roam. Not sure if it was intended or not but he Psi-Stormed larva at some point, didn't even realize Psi-storm could kill larva 0o. He kept moving out with decent sized armies and after every battle he would fall back, eventually Spanishiwa ran out of larva to keep up with Response, Storm centric army just tears through Lings and Immortals do pretty darn well against Ultralisks. A HT based army is definately better then a colossus based army against anything with ultra's and lings. The problem with a HT based army for me has been the loss of amulet and the blings though. Blings do pretty well against zealots with some upgrades and HT are much harder to use now without amulet. The entire reason this strat is doing well now is the removal of amulet and it is definately a great strat overal. Spanishwa's no gas style seems unneccesary though. Why would you ever get a spinecrawler if you could just get earlier speedling tech instead.. In case of 14 hatching i could see a reason as it is troublesome to incorporate early gas into the build but in any other case it just doesn;t make sense. The lack of speedlings makes protoss free to roam the map as there is no real threat of a backstab or getting surrounded yet. This entire no gasstyle is just bad imo.
I believe the idea is to get your econ booming since you won't really need gas for a while. Earlier speed might be better when you have lings but if you're making lings you're not making drones.
For the same reason minigun never opened air in the showmatch is the same reason why spines are the better choice here. You can't transfuse zerglings and you will throw a lot more of them away defending early pressure. With so many queens the spine crawlers become extremely cost effecient and you're free to drone up giving you a significant econ advantage....or so I understand.
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So from all the awesome ideas you guys have I like the early econ better that the cheese. I just feel bad inside when I win with a canon rush because its not fun for me or the other person. The high temp play is definitely something I will try but keep the suggestions rolling they are all very good
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On April 17 2011 21:22 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 19:08 Dymeter wrote:
I know this is a longshot comming from a terran, but have you thought of early Warp Prism zealots to bypass his deffences and elevator to his main, and aswell negate the need of making proxy pylon since you have a mobile one, using mostly Zealots and some stalkers. It seems like a good idea to me, someone needs to try it to make sure. A 4gate Robo would annihilate this build. You'd start by going 1gate Robo, then add on more Gateways while chrono the Warp Prism (and an Immortal, if you feel it's necessary). Then just pop on over to Zerg main and kill it.
No. I've seen games where spanishiwa defends vs a 4-gate with a hidden pylon in his main. It's stronger then a 4-gate robo since you don't need to build the warp prism or the robo. I think you are underestimating the power of alot of queens + spines with lings. It might be a strong build vs it, but it does not annihalate it.
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On April 17 2011 23:28 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 21:01 Dommk wrote:On April 17 2011 19:12 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I think the way minigun played it on typhon peaks was a good start, but he could have been greedier. He put down a 2nd and 3rd gate before taking his natural, this was unnecessary. So the best way in my opinion (also depends a bit on map): chrono zealot+stalker, walk to his natural, try to snipe a drone or some lings and force some lings/spine crawlers. I am not sure whether its better to get a 2nd stalker or a sentry after (i dont have that much knowledge about P), but i think its best to just expand off 1 gate and fall back with your zealot stalker once it gets too dangerous. Then add more gates and just walk forward (by this i mean, clean watchtower in the middle of the map and then just run back) a bit or run in front of his crawlers and then run back (just to force maybe 1-2 more crawlers and some lings) and take a third relatively quickly. be careful not to get your probelines bombed by banelings and maybe add 1-2 cannons per mineral line once you see that he actually went for fast drop upgrade. Build pylons at the edges of your base to spot nydusworms or incoming drops.
Once youre on three bases you should definitely get blink (if you havent already) and damage/armor upgrades (maybe better to start with the dmg/armor ups a bit earlier than that, but again, i dont have that much experience with protoss. You kinda have a couple of choices then, You can just go colossus blinkstalker, or go colossus voidray stalker. It is important that when you go colossus stalker that you push when you see him teching to hive, as this can be beaten by infestor broodlord + groundstuff (roachhydrazergling). If you go colossus voidray stalker you can also just take a fourth and add templars (to feedback infestors and storm corruptors) and a mothership. In the latter case i guess you can just push once youre at 200 supply. Colossus/Voidray doesn't fair too well against this build as it has a LOT more Infestors than regular Zerg armies. This build works amazingly well at killing "Deathballs" but falls apart in a war of attrition against High Templar, Storm just does so amazingly well against lings. I've never ever had success with trying to rely on one big 200/200 army to win the game, it didn't really work unless I managed to get a huge lead. But then again, I'm pretty bad The way Response was playing against Spanishiwa whilst Spanish was streaming was probably the best way IMO, being super greedy with bases + Cannons, double forge and doing High Templar/DT drops to keep his larva tied between drones, without a spire there wasn't much he could do, a single Warp-Prism got free roam. Not sure if it was intended or not but he Psi-Stormed larva at some point, didn't even realize Psi-storm could kill larva 0o. He kept moving out with decent sized armies and after every battle he would fall back, eventually Spanishiwa ran out of larva to keep up with Response, Storm centric army just tears through Lings and Immortals do pretty darn well against Ultralisks. A HT based army is definately better then a colossus based army against anything with ultra's and lings. The problem with a HT based army for me has been the loss of amulet and the blings though. Blings do pretty well against zealots with some upgrades and HT are much harder to use now without amulet. The entire reason this strat is doing well now is the removal of amulet and it is definately a great strat overal. Spanishwa's no gas style seems unneccesary though. Why would you ever get a spinecrawler if you could just get earlier speedling tech instead.. In case of 14 hatching i could see a reason as it is troublesome to incorporate early gas into the build but in any other case it just doesn;t make sense. The lack of speedlings makes protoss free to roam the map as there is no real threat of a backstab or getting surrounded yet. This entire no gasstyle is just bad imo.
The banelings can be dealt with Templar tech (DT tech specifically). Zealots don't do very well against Banelings but Archons tank an unimaginable amount of damage. The usefulness of Zealots deteriorates as the game goes on in ZvP, fortunately it isn't quite as bad as Roach/Hydra, as they can be used as a baneling shield for your gas units whenever your Minerals get high.
The one thing I hate about the Archon actually makes them very powerful against banelings, the unit looks pretty deceiving in that it has a much greater collision area than you would assume from looking at the unit model. 4-5 Archons can completely "wall off" your army in any given direction. It kinda sucks in one way because it reduces the DPS per area of your deathball but it makes an amazing tank against Banelings/Ultralisks.
The loss of amulet really hasn't changed much in ZvP though, the lack of EMP actually means that Templars can Storm.
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I think on Day[9] spanishiwa said that a nex first or FFE opener from toss is troublesome for this build, since the whole point is to get on equal economic ground. in all my games that's usually what gives me the most trouble in the early-mid game. late game templar (feedback+strorm) and a good mix of gateway units is pretty solid, with maybe some VR support.
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What does the build look like? Is it easily scoutable?
Thanks. Just wondering so I know that I can DT rush or abuse some vulnerabilites.
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Hatch first, then pool, then no gas. Just skirt around for a while with your probe, he won't pop more than 2-4 zerglings and they won't have speed. If he doesn't have any gas by the time you're around 18-20 supply you're probably safe to assume it's the no-gas build. He still has the potential to go mass zerglings, but if he fails without doing significant damage he's pretty much dead since you'll be economically ahead then.
edit: A switch to roaches is also a possibility, as I learned the hard way earlier today. I need to rewatch that replay before I can comment further. Memory might be screwing with me, played a lot of PvZ today. Addendum after watching replay; it wasn't a no-gas build, I just screwed up and got my probe killed right before he took the gas. Misread it and went phoenix and got owned by the roaches. I was real slow on the phoenix as well. Meh, not used to going fast stargate.
editedit: Almost forgot, spines at the front is a pretty big tell as well that he's gonna be defensive.
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Haha slow lings aren't a threat anyways. 
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EPT
