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On April 18 2011 16:57 Gooey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 16:39 osten wrote:
You only analyze from a pvz perspective, very ignorant.
In zvz I outecon this, by excpecting him to drone. Which he almost always does. Hate to be rude, but this thread is labled as (P) to indicate the topic is in regards to a build against protoss and how protoss can go about dealing with it, whilst posting videos and descriptions of games being played in a bo7 dealing with it, followed by thoughtful analysis of each game that was played. I don't know where the ignorance is coming from, considering the thread is "How does -protoss- deal with this specific build?". For the sake of being nice, I will refrain from commenting on your second sentence and third fragment =)
You're not being rude, that is just a fact. I've had some friends try this build on me, and when I know it is coming I can usually beat it with a colossus, void ray and stalker army. However, I have been tricked into believing I am safe in the early game so I over expand and then get rolled by a timing push.
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I struggle vs this build hugely, as a Master P (doesnt mean i am good just gives you an idea of where i am comming from) I find this build extreamly hard to deal with on some of the bigger maps like shakuras as they can throw up 3-4 quick expos once they get an army of lings and you can't exactly push out and stop them as you won't have a max'ed army, So then you are vs a 4-5 base Z on 2 base.
I have had my army fungled and baindroped multiple times and if i am honest i was struggling really hard to find any good counters, I have been toying with templar (for storms) but i normally find by the time you get them on 2/3 base the zerg could be on 5/6 base and it doesnt matter how many storms you get off its really hard to stop. This followed up by ultras normally means HTs are almost useless.. I like the idea of archons though!
I think DTs is also a waste as a spore + 2 spines can stop most dt harrass however HT drops may be useful,
I have had most luck with the build going mass stalker collsus/Immortal and just blinking back and letting my collsus take hits and immortal take the bains, When you get a critical mass of stalkers with blink lings just die in front of you. The infestors can be a pain but you just have to pressure LOADS so they never have the energy.
I have had alot of losses where i scout it and dont get blink in time and just insta loose from 1 push from Z.
I think blink is key to playing vs this build, I tried mass voids but my entire ground army gets demolished by the lings / bains / fungles and voids arn't the best at dealing with lings!
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I think the 2 base straight into vray colossi build (the one with 1 robo and 2 stargates) will beat this build easily. To deal with that vray colossi build you need a TON of corruptors and because of the late gases I dont think you will be able to hold it off. That's abusing the late gases.
You can also abuse the immobility because of all the queens, slow lings and spine crawlers. Maybe some drop play will peal this build apart.
Or you just abuse the fact that he won't be able to push out any time soon and you play super greedy.
Every build got weaknesses and I dont think that this build will have a future. It might be nice for laddering cuz you can throw people off with it, but I think drop play will be the way to go in the future.
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Early stalker pressure IMO is a good aggressive response to this build that is becoming more and more popular amongst us Zergs. With stalker PRESSURE(not a commitment) you can force spines earlier then the zerg would like, force out lings and possibly a earlier gas then then the zerg would like to take. When you force all of this from a zerg doing something like a no gas build, it will almost completely negate the economic advantage that this build offers, and if they overreact it will set them behind. Your stalkers are perfectly safe and so is any expansion you get early on. What is he gonna counter you with, slowlings and queens off creep? haha
List of possible counters:
4 gate blink stalkers
2 gas 4 gate with sentry support - classic 1 gas 4 gate does not work
2 gate zealot pressure - not sure on this one but in thoery it should demolish his natural. add a forge for an all in. Probably only effective on close spawns
1 - 2 gate stalker expand - a couple early stalkers at his natural is going to be very effective.
3 gate robo - sounds odd, but 1 or 2 immortals backed by stalker/zealot would be an easy 1 base timing. gl spines and queens holding this off. maybe a warp prism?
14 nexus , 1- 2 gate expand , forge FE - economic options, would be my choice if I wanted to play the macro game against the zergs no gas.
The ICE FISHER build takes an extremely late third in every matchup, or at least that is what I have seen in Spanishiwa's replays, which IMO makes this build play out more like a 2 base all in. Either the build inflicts major damage in the mid game , or does minimal damage and the toss simply out macros and rolls over the zerg.
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I would say 4gate with sentries are a bad choice if you wanna go early aggression. The spines don't care much about forcefields nor guardian shields, and you don't really need it to handle zerglings. I would say 4gate pure stalkers with blink is a better option then. It should hit before he takes his gas (around 8:00).
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Just my 2 cents, but like Juice said, double stalker builds can really force a lot of lings.
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In spanishiwa's build you spend your first 100gas on Lair tech, and an overseer for scouting. Unless you get a Dark Templar very early I don't think it would be that effective.
Also, I had been practicing this with my friend and he went phoenix voidray but my infestors took care of it pretty well between fungal growth and infested terrans.
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On April 19 2011 01:35 Captainwolf wrote:
In spanishiwa's build you spend your first 100gas on Lair tech, and an overseer for scouting. Unless you get a Dark Templar very early I don't think it would be that effective.
Also, I had been practicing this with my friend and he went phoenix voidray but my infestors took care of it pretty well between fungal growth and infested terrans.
You should have him try to do the 6:45 DT build and see how that works out, would be interesting.
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This is a really cool build and could have the potential to re-position PvZ if Zerg players fully explore it.
It's sad that the ego's of established Zerg players cause them to dismiss it rather than explore it.
User was warned for this post
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I have been playing Zerg a lot lately using Spanishiwa build. FE is not that good a response to it because I simply expand again so I am always up an expansion.
The only thing that has decisively killed me was a 2 gate proxy on a 1v1 map. 4 gate does not work at all. That will fail more times than it will succeed. The only way I will die to a 4 gate is if I really mess up. 1 production cycle of zerglings and 4-6 queens and 3 to 4 spine crawlers getting transfused pretty much can not be broken by a 4 gate.
The other things that hurts me pretty bad are warp prism drops if I expand at far locations. Blink Stalkers are something that has a very narrow window of effectiveness. You need to do a lot of damage with your first play because the second time you try anything fancy is when Speedlings + Fungal will crush you.
Also this build is not very good on maps like Xel Naga or Slag Pits or at least it is a lot harder to defend.
Oh yes another thing that should kill this build is Kiwikaki's +1 attack Warp Prism drop. The Immortal variation and the one without should be about as effective. The one without Immortals is a lot faster though.
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On April 19 2011 04:28 AzureD wrote:
I have been playing Zerg a lot lately using Spanishiwa build. FE is not that good a response to it because I simply expand again so I am always up an expansion.
The only thing that has decisively killed me was a 2 gate proxy on a 1v1 map. 4 gate does not work at all. That will fail more times than it will succeed. The only way I will die to a 4 gate is if I really mess up. 1 production cycle of zerglings and 4-6 queens and 3 to 4 spine crawlers getting transfused pretty much can not be broken by a 4 gate.
The other things that hurts me pretty bad are warp prism drops if I expand at far locations. Blink Stalkers are something that has a very narrow window of effectiveness. You need to do a lot of damage with your first play because the second time you try anything fancy is when Speedlings + Fungal will crush you.
Also this build is not very good on maps like Xel Naga or Slag Pits or at least it is a lot harder to defend.
Oh yes another thing that should kill this build is Kiwikaki's +1 attack Warp Prism drop. The Immortal variation and the one without should be about as effective. The one without Immortals is a lot faster though.
do you have a replay of kiwi (or anyone) doing that build?
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I have been seeing a lot of zergs going for this build lately and i honestly love to just go 3 gate dt on them. The reason that this works so well is that your dts will get to his base right as lair is almost done and you can harass the hell out of his mineral line and make him fearful of continued pressure. At this time you should be making probes like a mad man and grabbing an expansion of your own.
The DTs are mostly to be used to scout his whole base and if you can get some drone kills, stop the production of structures, kill queens, etc. This is all a huge plus and should make you feel like you are in a great position. I personally love to try to save at least 2 dts (if possible) and put 1 at his 3rd and 1 at a tower to give me more scouting info.
IMO Spanishiwa's build is awesome but there are some fairly large holes in it which can be exploited quite easily with good macro and dt micro.
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I play as T, and I know we're focusing mostly on P, a combination of light pressure (to keep the creep spread from getting out of control/deny third until Z has more units) and extremely greedy tech/econ play is the way to go.
14 nexus might give you a comparable economy if you crono all your probes,
I don't see four-gate working, I don't think any ZvP build would become popular if it couldn't hold a 4-gate.
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On April 19 2011 00:32 decaf wrote:
I think the 2 base straight into vray colossi build (the one with 1 robo and 2 stargates) will beat this build easily. To deal with that vray colossi build you need a TON of corruptors and because of the late gases I dont think you will be able to hold it off. That's abusing the late gases.
You can also abuse the immobility because of all the queens, slow lings and spine crawlers. Maybe some drop play will peal this build apart.
Or you just abuse the fact that he won't be able to push out any time soon and you play super greedy.
Every build got weaknesses and I dont think that this build will have a future. It might be nice for laddering cuz you can throw people off with it, but I think drop play will be the way to go in the future.
Actually, the build is very gas heavy. By not taking gas early you get way more drones out and are able to sustain 4 extractors all at once very early. Because of this the build generally gets more gas than other builds and there is only a very small window where taking one or two geysers would put any other Zerg opening ahead in total gas harvested. A passive 2 base void ray colossus build is exactly what this build is good against.
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I really like this build, but I am having trouble dealing with terran players who skip helion and go marine tank. I can normally deal with that when i get early bane speed no problem. But this build gives you a delay, if he goes helion harass first i will have enough time to stall and get bane speed.
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As a zerg player, I have had a lot of success of this build, especially on maps where protoss tends to get gready and nexus first some sort of FE. I find it gives me a lot of time to drone up and scout to respond accordingly. You've mentionned some of this before but here's what I've had trouble against:
1) Constant Agression. With this build, you don't have to make cannons if you FE'd. Get a cyber, chrono boost warpgate and push with some units. I won't have ling speed for a while because I'll want to get a faster third since you FE'd yourself. Forcing units give you a great advantage.
2) Protoss who get a pretty quick third and deny muta harass. I don't feel like they are too far behind economically if I don't damage them, and it leaves them with good economy for strong late game.
3) 1 and 2 followed by a well-upgraded deathball. You've denied my harass, you made me build units instead of drones and I'm stuck with these low tier units and you slowed down my tech. Unless I have a lot of broodlords somehow (which means i had a great advantage or you stayed deep in your base for a long time) I can probably win from hear but other than that no matter the number of bases I have you can go straight for my main and then I'm fucked.
Essentially, Expand, Macro, Defend and poke when you have set up defense. I don't think this build is extremely strong but it definitely forces a different style out of the toss players which they will have to adjust too.
Edit: Forgot to say I also lose almost all the time to my practice partner who does Ace's quick collosi build and denies my scouting. If you can get the IEM replays thats pretty much how he won. I can only counter it with very fast mutalisk....or a retarded amount of lings, but again if I'm not extremely ready for it its pretty powerful; you might want to check it out.
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On April 19 2011 10:45 Steel wrote:
As a zerg player, I have had a lot of success of this build, especially on maps where protoss tends to get gready and nexus first some sort of FE. I find it gives me a lot of time to drone up and scout to respond accordingly. You've mentionned some of this before but here's what I've had trouble against:
1) Constant Agression. With this build, you don't have to make cannons if you FE'd. Get a cyber, chrono boost warpgate and push with some units. I won't have ling speed for a while because I'll want to get a faster third since you FE'd yourself. Forcing units give you a great advantage.
2) Protoss who get a pretty quick third and deny muta harass. I don't feel like they are too far behind economically if I don't damage them, and it leaves them with good economy for strong late game.
3) 1 and 2 followed by a well-upgraded deathball. You've denied my harass, you made me build units instead of drones and I'm stuck with these low tier units and you slowed down my tech. Unless I have a lot of broodlords somehow (which means i had a great advantage or you stayed deep in your base for a long time) I can probably win from hear but other than that no matter the number of bases I have you can go straight for my main and then I'm fucked.
Essentially, Expand, Macro, Defend and poke when you have set up defense. I don't think this build is extremely strong but it definitely forces a different style out of the toss players which they will have to adjust too.
Edit: Forgot to say I also lose almost all the time to my practice partner who does Ace's quick collosi build and denies my scouting. If you can get the IEM replays thats pretty much how he won. I can only counter it with very fast mutalisk....or a retarded amount of lings, but again if I'm not extremely ready for it its pretty powerful; you might want to check it out.
Which game may I ask are you referring to, about Ace'squick Colo?
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This build is specifically designed to resist early pressure. The build works best when the opponent pressures and fails. If you try to beat it using some form of early pressure, you're playing to the build's strengths. Even a 4 gate delayed blink stalker push gets trounced if the zerg anticipates it and builds extra spines on the high ground.
The fact that zerg cedes all hope of early pressure in an extremely obvious way is basically an invitation for protoss to get three bases fast and tech to whatever late-game army comp they want. Perhaps the standard death ball is not the best choice, but protoss has many late game options, many of which are rarely used because of resource constraints and aggression. This is the opportunity to use those options.
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I was under the impression that Spanishiwa himself stated that if your expo gets blocked at all as Z you must abandon this opener immediately. And Protoss definitely has the easiest time blocking expansions so I'm not sure why this is an issue.
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I have also had success with a 4gate robo drop using a warp prism in the main (Get one stalker, one zealot, one immortal, drop those in the main and warp in 4 zealots). I have not worked on timings for the build so everything is rough, but it bypasses the spines, forcing him to rely solely on queens and slow lings (neither of which do well vs Zealots) and potentially forcing the spines to be moved (which can sometimes be sniped by the immortal before they can even burow)
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EPT
