I just started trying the Ice Fisher build but I'm having a lot of trouble against a reaper/marauder composition (or dare I say, all-in?). I faced Chodaboy (T) twice on the ladder in back to back games and the results were pretty one sided.
Disclaimer: I get supply blocked in both games. I realize this and am trying to fix my overlord timings. My scouting wasn't that great, but I do see reapers in G1. I was in for a surprise when he went MASS marauders and reapers. Spines and queens and zerglings didn't stand a ghost of a chance.
Here are the replays:
In the spoiler I attached a replay of someone cannon rushing me for going 13 hatch. Does not bold well. + Show Spoiler +
Really nice build, i tried it now a few times in my platinum ladder and it works out quite well.
You have to defense a lot at first, but when you survived it with a little bit of micro you just overrun your enemy.
The only problem for me right now is ZvZ. If the enemy goes 10-12pool kind of All-In it's really micro intensive, but i think that's a problem of me, not of the build ^^
How do you defend multiple cheese (7pool+spine for example which feels pretty popular) in ZvZ with 16hatch or you go 16hatch only in 2player maps where your 9scout will be 100% surely intime in their base to spot that their pool is almost ready and your isnt even coming yet.
Thanks so much for posting this Spanishiwa! I loved the one where you held it against a MC 4 gate. That game pretty much convinced me in the power of no-gas while you took your second (See vid below). The key battle occurs where you defend with 4 spines 4 queens and a ton of normal zerglings. I love how you only began to take gas (and when you did you took all 4) when you had both bases saturated. And once you took gas, you started upgrades and so on. In the MLG, we see dignitasNaniwa play almost the exact version of MC 4 gate rush (fake 3 gate sentry expand) against EG Machine, who did something different for comparison.
I uploaded 2 videos below which show the order of events on the zerg side. Both protosses in the below vids were doing the same thing.
I just played a Protoss Forge FE on Tal'Darim, and I usually lose to this... So as usual, he pushed with a six-gate sentry heavy composition, the sort of thing that is killing me usually... But suddenly, I had three bases nearing saturation, a nice creep spread that allowed me to see every single movement he was doing... And overlords full of banelings ready to be dropped on top of his army. Yep, that's right, sentries went BOOM.
I am totally loving this build, the opener definitely allows you to play a lot of mind games and leaves you with so many options for mid game once your econ is booming! Thanks a lot for the in depth discussion. It sucks though when a probe expand block is able to prevent me from using this on key maps like Xelnaga, I have tried sneaking drones/ faking gas first, and it works sometimes, but I wish there was a better solution that didnt sacrifice too much econ.
It's true 6 pool is difficult to stop. I'm currently working on solutions and will let update should I have any developments. Lots of builds are susceptible to 6 pool though, so there is that.
@spacebarbarian
Probe blocks are super annoying. I'm experimenting with different solutions. For example, the newer 13h 15p gets the hatch down against a 9 scout except on close pos and sometimes XNC. I think the key is to hide a drone when you see the 9 scout, because many Protoss poke up the ramp before blocking the expansion.
@Chicken chaser
I've never heard of a marauder reaper composition, so I'll have to watch the replay when I get home to give any advice.
If you're going to start doing 13h 15p Spanish, would you update that in the OP when you get a bit of time so that people are not mistakenly doing something different? Not that the 16h 15p doesn't still kill it anyways.
7 wins 1 loss since I started this, thank you Spanish!
@BinkyBrown As far as I can tell, it's just a stronger opening than 16/15. Scout timings, economy, making early lings, etc. You end up with ~3 more larva, earlier creep spread, and ~100 more minerals.
@teumas Scouting is player preference, personally I like to block the standard 15 or 16 hatch builds that I see in ZvZ, and I'll scout for a 2 rax against terran. Protoss is pretty laid back, I don't look for a forge because I feel confident that I can stop it (not sure if this is good or bad though).
Sorry, back again trying to poke holes in this build. What would you do against a fast eight-marine stim drop? How about a Prism push into your main? From what I'm reading, you're going to be investing all your defenses in Spine Crawlers at your expansion, so an aggressive drop in your main will circumvent all your defenses entirely and deal a significant amount of damage, if not have a possibility of taking down your main Hatchery.
On April 06 2011 07:53 Acritter wrote: Sorry, back again trying to poke holes in this build. What would you do against a fast eight-marine stim drop? How about a Prism push into your main? From what I'm reading, you're going to be investing all your defenses in Spine Crawlers at your expansion, so an aggressive drop in your main will circumvent all your defenses entirely and deal a significant amount of damage, if not have a possibility of taking down your main Hatchery.
You're getting a lot of queens. That should easily crush any medivac pressure, and should be enough to snipe a warp prism (7 range!) before it can elevator too many units for you to be able to handle. Fast robos and starports aren't cheap, so if they got a dropship out early, I wouldn't expect them to be able to break through your spine crawlers and pressure with drops simultaneously.
I have come across the maruader, hellion all in and it is impossible to hold with this build when they have stim and hellions, no time for muta or roach and lings just don't cut it. Queens are good for dealing with everything except maruaders. How do you deal with the Hellion maruader all in?
On April 06 2011 07:53 Acritter wrote: Sorry, back again trying to poke holes in this build. What would you do against a fast eight-marine stim drop? How about a Prism push into your main? From what I'm reading, you're going to be investing all your defenses in Spine Crawlers at your expansion, so an aggressive drop in your main will circumvent all your defenses entirely and deal a significant amount of damage, if not have a possibility of taking down your main Hatchery.
You think a drop that could destroy the main would be out before the 4 queens? Do you also believe that they would be able to sneak the dropship past creep + overlords + lings + watchtower vision so that the Z couldn't prepare with some more zerglings or queens? How about you throw out some timings and see where they match up?
On April 06 2011 08:09 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote: I have come across the maruader, hellion all in and it is impossible to hold with this build when they have stim and hellions, no time for muta or roach and lings just don't cut it. Queens are good for dealing with everything except maruaders. How do you deal with the Hellion maruader all in?
On April 06 2011 07:53 Acritter wrote: Sorry, back again trying to poke holes in this build. What would you do against a fast eight-marine stim drop? How about a Prism push into your main? From what I'm reading, you're going to be investing all your defenses in Spine Crawlers at your expansion, so an aggressive drop in your main will circumvent all your defenses entirely and deal a significant amount of damage, if not have a possibility of taking down your main Hatchery.
You think a drop that could destroy the main would be out before the 4 queens? Do you also believe that they would be able to sneak the dropship past creep + overlords + lings + watchtower vision so that the Z couldn't prepare with some more zerglings or queens? How about you throw out some timings and see where they match up?
Also addressing the guy two posts above you:
Eight stimmed marines will kill four Queens, last I checked. Same with eight Stalkers/Zealots (four loaded in, four warped in). You also fail to acknowledge that by committing to this build, Zerg gives up any pretense of map control, and if the Overlord spread is anything approaching what you're suggesting, Zerg is in serious danger of suffering massive damage from things like the Void Ray Phoenix opening we've been seeing so much in PvZ of late.
I'm not saying this build isn't effective, I'm just saying it's probably not the end-all to Zerg play. If it's as unassailable as you appear to think, then it's certain Zerg's going to get nerfed in an upcoming patch, because it's not healthy for the game for a Zerg player to be able to take an expansion and drone it up to max risk-free.
On April 06 2011 07:53 Acritter wrote: Sorry, back again trying to poke holes in this build. What would you do against a fast eight-marine stim drop? How about a Prism push into your main? From what I'm reading, you're going to be investing all your defenses in Spine Crawlers at your expansion, so an aggressive drop in your main will circumvent all your defenses entirely and deal a significant amount of damage, if not have a possibility of taking down your main Hatchery.
You think a drop that could destroy the main would be out before the 4 queens? Do you also believe that they would be able to sneak the dropship past creep + overlords + lings + watchtower vision so that the Z couldn't prepare with some more zerglings or queens? How about you throw out some timings and see where they match up?
Also addressing the guy two posts above you:
Eight stimmed marines will kill four Queens, last I checked. Same with eight Stalkers/Zealots (four loaded in, four warped in). You also fail to acknowledge that by committing to this build, Zerg gives up any pretense of map control, and if the Overlord spread is anything approaching what you're suggesting, Zerg is in serious danger of suffering massive damage from things like the Void Ray Phoenix opening we've been seeing so much in PvZ of late.
I'm not saying this build isn't effective, I'm just saying it's probably not the end-all to Zerg play. If it's as unassailable as you appear to think, then it's certain Zerg's going to get nerfed in an upcoming patch, because it's not healthy for the game for a Zerg player to be able to take an expansion and drone it up to max risk-free.
you neeeed to make spine crawlers. don't be afraid to make a lot. you're spending all of your larva on drones and ovys until 44 drones.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-201088.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-201089.jpg)
