EPT[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 7
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
| ||
|
Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
Even if the build is found to have holes, this is exactly the type of work that the TL community should be supporting (imo). I'm more than willing to offer my US account for darkforce to use, though I'm sure he already has access to many. Props for standing behiend your build Spanishiwa, I hope it proves to be as solid as you want it to be. | ||
|
Bumblebees
United States328 Posts
I suggest trying it a few times. It's ~20s faster in game. You also end up about half a larvae spawn ahead. edit: I forgot to mention that it just so happens to time that a 12/13 scout by protoss won't be in time to block your hatch. A 9 scout will just barely make it on xel-naga and not at all on most larger maps. | ||
|
LaCucaracha
Bulgaria2 Posts
| ||
|
Bumblebees
United States328 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 13 Hatchery 13 Spawning Pool 16 Overlord 17 Queen 20 Queen 24 Overlord 27 Queen 29 Queen | ||
|
Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
It's a very fun way to play though! | ||
|
Darkn3ss
United States717 Posts
On April 04 2011 13:16 Advocado wrote: It seems quite weak to reapers paired with bunker rushing on the nat? Other than that, is it very important to be dropping banelings on the protoss armies when they start to get deathball'ish? Zerglings sure does seem to have huge problems picking the gateway balls apart. It's a very fun way to play though! You have to consider that you have to invest about the same amount (or more) into ur zerglings. You can't expect to be able to fight 10 stalkers with 14 lings... 10 stalkers would get raped by ~30-ish lings tho... and if he has zealots - you get a few banelings in the mix. Zerglings are pretty beasty, tbh. Forcefields is the only thing that makes it hard for zerglings to fight protoss army. Of course, when toss ball gets VERY big you may want something other than lings but if you outupgrade toss and constantly spam in lings you may have a good chance but that's not really how you want to play anyway... you'll have ohter units at your disposal by the time toss gets a lot of units. | ||
|
darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
however in zvp, the natural response to FE is 4gate, and this defensive spine crawler/transfuse play just shuts it down. Baiting protoss to a fail strat is win. I follow up with roach/hydra/upgrades instead of lings, but that's the beauty of this build, you stay alive with spawning pool tech and no gas until you can afford the lair tech of your choice. Its a guarantee to safe macro, unless you get all-in'd before your hatch is done. If they let it finish and let that first spine up you are SAFE and can constantly produce spines while getting fully saturated and insane creep spread. Grats and thanks for spanishiwa for this build, hopefully we see it more refined to work in ZvZ, or against early attacks that hit before 20 food | ||
|
Spanishiwa
United States91 Posts
Roach hydra is definitely viable, I just prefer ling/bane. I think it's much more useful because dropping banes on mineral lines is pretty key, so is having quick lings to harass. Roach hydra is a more stationary army, but stronger in a straight up fight. The static D from this build really complements the ling/bane style better, because you're safe from counter attacks and can do all of the attacking. I also think infestors are sick, and roach hydra really eats your gas. @darkscream it's in honor of one of my friends :D @bumblebees i'm so unfamiliar with it.. will have to try @advocado you should always be dropping and harassing. you get overlord drop for a reason, have to make the most out of the investment. Also, reaper bunker doesn't really give me a problem.. you've got queens? I think the queens alone could take out a reaper bunker. | ||
|
b0uh34
France10 Posts
- I did not manage to make it work on zvz on maps with short distance (Xel maga and close position on nulpar ravin, new lost temple etc). I can't resist to early agression because spines crawler are not finished when first gling arrive - I did not manage to make it work on scrap station (in zvp and zvt) because of the back door and very poorly on nulpar ravin because of the big distance between main base and the natural. Am I the only one in this situation? (i.e. Am I doing something badly?) Or is this BO roxxing only in certain situation? | ||
|
Spanishiwa
United States91 Posts
Your drone scout should tell you whether or not you need to OL on 17 or 18. You will always be able to fend a gas pool or pool first (except like 8 pool) because you will have the larva advantage until his first larva spawn pops. Make lings as appropriate to stall for queens and eventually spines. Should work on scrap, although tank pushes on your third are a bit difficult on that map. I'm not sure what nulpar ravin is, though. | ||
|
NDsOdapOp
United Kingdom60 Posts
| ||
|
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
| ||
|
Ahelvin
France1866 Posts
On April 04 2011 19:56 Acritter wrote: Thanks for the reply. How would you respond to a player (Protoss, for relevance to me) who responded after scouting this by expanding twice? As kcdc stated it, I think the response would come in the form of baneling/infestors drops in mineral lines. A Protoss on three bases is quite spread out, and is usually having a hard time to protect all his mineral lines unless : 1°) He is very, very good at multitasking and spreading his army, but then he may deserves to win the game  2°) He has invested quite some money in cannons, but then zerg is free to take his fourth since little to no army won't allow the protoss to move out and pressure. I think double-expanding is a gamble, as you trade aggressiveness versus high-economy, and you are then giving a window of opportunity for an aggressive zerg. If he can exploit it, it could prove quite difficult to defend yourself. But if he misses it or if you are confident you can defend yourself properly during that timing window, you'll come ahead for sure. | ||
|
Chicken Chaser
United States533 Posts
On April 02 2011 15:56 gROOT.clever wrote: this is an amazing exploration of the no gas FE thing. I'm glad somebody has put the time in to make it viable at higher levels of play. I remember the flaming I got when I posted a similar idea without the same amount of research and strategic analysis to back it up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196040 Guess it just shows how much difference putting in the extra effort makes. Great job OP!! <3 <3 I took a glance at the comments on your thread and my heart just sank for you. So much heat from well-known members of this community.  But I'm glad to see you take a positive attitude in how the "Ice Fisher build" is being received a month later.I've been watching Spanishwa "blindly" open 16 hatch, 15 pool on his stream and the macro games (or early game defense micro) that this build incites (?) have been very entertaining and jaw dropping. I wish this style catches on in the pro scene, especially in the GSL, because this is definitely a solid style. | ||
|
b0uh34
France10 Posts
Thanks for your reply. The map called ravin de Nulpar in fr is Backwater Gulch in english and not Nulpar ravin for some reason... I also have problem with Slag Pits. In these 2 maps the distance between the two hatch is high and more embarracing the choke is very far from the natural. Thus this is hard to find an appropriate place for sunken : only on your expand, then opponent go at your main; only on your expand, the opponent hit your expand. For instance, in your opinion, how many spine crawler do we need to defend a 4 gates and where should we place them? (I try 4 spines crawler, 2 on top of the choke and 2 at my natural between the choke and the hatch but it does not work with 4 queen in support) | ||
|
Spanishiwa
United States91 Posts
@acritter There is a really attached where the p goes for a quick third, which I feel is very greedy in itself. The replay shows that constant harass forces a ton of cannons and he spends more time saturating than it's worth, IMO. A double expand would be ridiculously greedy. Ahelvin said it better than me, haha! :p @b0uh34 Ah. I'm not sure if it's the case for other servers, but on NA they patched backwater so that the ramp is facing the natural. The natural lay out is now much more defendable and thus viable on that map as well. Slag pits you can treat just like xel naga. The placement of the spine should be placed with these things (in this order) in mind: 1) protecting the hatchery 2) protecting the bottom of the ramp 3) protecting the mineral line 4) protecting another spine. If you can do 1 and 2, then the build is more than likely viable on that map. 3 is a bonus, but like on XNC you will probably need another spine to completely protect the natural. | ||
|
xre
France9 Posts
Please help. Thanks in advance. | ||
|
vicariouscheese
United States589 Posts
On April 05 2011 02:22 xre wrote: I just lost like ~15 games in a row using this build, I just can't deal with early pressure without speedlings / banelings / roaches / whatever. Just relying on spines is impossible. Please help. Thanks in advance. uhhhh replays? | ||
|
Spanishiwa
United States91 Posts
A lot of the build is reliant on good queen control, spine focus firing, and scouting information. My bet is you'd need to work on these aspects along with supply blockage/creep spread/injects, although without a replay I can't be sure. | ||
| ||
