EPTBeen practicing it all moning, vs P and its doing wonders.
My APM isnt too hgih so I rather get spire first then drop to deal with the collosi + void push.
[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 5
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ThatsNoMoon
Mexico344 Posts
Been practicing it all moning, vs P and its doing wonders. My APM isnt too hgih so I rather get spire first then drop to deal with the collosi + void push. | ||
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CommanderCato
United States78 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
I have been heavily favoring upgraded ling and baneling play vs Protoss too, so it's nice to see a more fleshed out process to that strategy. How does this fare against Marauder/Hellion? | ||
Spanishiwa
United States91 Posts
Marauder hellion holds as well, still looking for reps though. | ||
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HyperLink
Canada172 Posts
And you said you thought no one was really interested... | ||
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Defrath
United States30 Posts
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grungust
United States325 Posts
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King of Town
Netherlands26 Posts
I have been looking/theorycrafting for a strat this elegant for half a year. Spanishiwa, you are awesome. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
THanks for this!  | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On April 01 2011 11:00 grungust wrote: I'm interested in darkforces response to spanishiwa. He ignored most of the points i critized, which to me means, that the build is in fact not as great as most people here think. but lets see: On April 01 2011 01:18 Spanishiwa wrote: There is a huge 110 second window before he gets his speedling tech up where you'll have slowling vs slowling. Scouting during this time is very easy, and you'll be able to tell what he's doing. He'll need to start his expansion during this time for it to be anything other than a 1 base all in. So you'll see from there. And it's not that difficult to hide a zergling or two during this stage around the map so that you can use it for scouting purposes. Overlord sacs can work too to check drone saturation and # of geysers taken. If he opens 14g14p you wont have your Pool done for a good part of that "huge 110 second window". I just randomly clicked one of the ZvZ replays and checked the buildorder (it was 15h14p btw. and not 16h15p as stated in the OP). Your pool starts 2:40. Pool builds 65 seconds. Your first Lings start building at 3:45. They hatch 24 seconds later, at 4:09. Now it depends on the map how long they need to your opponents base. I'd say we can take an average of like 30s.so you arrive at 4:39, which is about 25 seconds before zergling speed finishes, so you MIGHT get one glimpse of the inside of his base. It doesnt really matter whether he starts an expansion, he can still continue to pump speedlings, or he switches to drones, you dont know. and the fact that you have no clue what your opponent is going to do makes this build bad in my eyes. Next problem: Usually against 14g14p your zerglings will arrive at your natural around the time your first zerglings spawn. Now im curious how you want to a) send scoutling to your opponents base and b) hide lings around the map for later scouting when your opponent is right at your natural pressuring to run in and kill drones or whatever. Remember your first Lings spawn 55 seconds before Lingspeed finishes, so there is not as much time as you think to do all that. I just dont see it working. Overlord sacs .. meh, i guess it can give you valuable information sometimes, but they are so slow and sometimes it will just put your further behind. If you message me on eu (atndarkforce.423) we can do some games and maybe i can prove my points in practise. | ||
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mizak
Canada27 Posts
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Spanishiwa
United States91 Posts
As for 14 gas 14 pool you can outproduce his initial zergling count, and then pressure slow ling vs slow ling because he can't counter with such a low slowling count and you'll have 2 queens. So pretty much you'll have the drone scout to see when he has lings then you can ling scout to check everything else (like counting his drones, for instance). Which replays did you watch? I usually 16/15 but I may have forgotten in that particular game. I only transfer enough drones so that I'll have 16 in my main, which often means 0 transfer to my natural vs a 14/14. So it's easy to just walk by his pressuring lings because you out number him 8 to 6. Worst case scenario I just hide my original scouting drone somewhere on the map. It does matter whether or not he starts an expansion, because if he pumps drones you'll be ahead because he'll just be over saturating. Ling all ins are almost impossible as queens + spines + drone micro is very strong. I think the early pool replays really show that. Unfortunately I don't have an eu account, so we won't be able to practice. The replays show it working vs high level players though, so surely there's at least some merit to the build. Meh. I see this mainly working because people dont realize the big weaknesses of this build. I absolutely dont see you holding some kind of 2 rax pressure into expand into 5 rax stimpush, as you will not even have zergling speed done when the push is outside of your base. and slow lings against stimmed MM is no fun. I'm not really sure I understand, 5 rax stimpush from 2 base or 1? If 1, then it's super all in and holdable if you scout (queens + spines). If 2, then you will have time for slow banelings and zergling speed will be done momentarily, or already finished. Slow banes on creep do just fine against marines, and queens fare pretty well against 2 rax. Against P i find it problematic not to be able to scout very well (like checking whether he takes gas at his nat, cancel his nexus and stuff like that.. al that is way harder with slow lings). furthermore, as kcdc said, you have no offensive potential, so P can just take a third very save. Cancelling his nexus isn't that difficult to scout, and regardless you're immune to any nexus cancel into 4/5 gate pushes anyway, just because you need the spine crawler count regardless of whether he's 3 gate expanding or 4 gating. Slow lings can poke in just fine against sentries (which is presumably what they're expanding with) just because sentries are super slow and have limited range/dps. Most protoss' take a defensive position behind a good sim city anyway, which means they'll be even more unable to deny your scouting. You might say that the protoss should be more active with denying slow lings, but keep in mind that he's 'just' as 'blind' as you are. The initial spine easily denies probe scouting information, and the queens as well. Hallucination would be too late to tip off the protoss, so he's pretty much forced to play defensive unless he wants to be risky. Offensive potential is pretty moot IMO, because you're taking a FE. You're pretty much going to be defensive if you FE, that's just the nature of the play style. This build just takes that to an extreme, which is what benefits Zerg the most IMO (going hardcore economy, instead of this inbetween move trying to steal map control with speedlings while FE'ing). Offensive potential really shines when Zerg hits mid to late game, what with drops and critical researches coming into play. What 'offensive' potential would you really have when going FE anyway? Even if you tried to all in (i.e. going all offense), the protoss would probably hold with good force field placement. This build essentially 'cuts corners' which is what puts Zerg so far ahead economically. It's true the P could take a quicker third, but in order to get that information they'd need to have scouted you. Hallucination comes pretty late (late enough so that the 'fast' third would just be a 'slightly fast' third, or normally timed) and the same is true for observer. Even if they did take a faster third, drop tech kicks in very soon, and you'd be able to harass three + fronts at once with baneling drops/zergling drops/into eventual infestor harass. All the while you'd secure extra bases of your own. The quick third from the protoss would curb his army count, and so a counter attack would be almost impossible (you now have overlord drop, infestors soon/already there, and the original spines + multitude of queens with tons of energy for transfuse). And in ZvZ i absolutely hate this build. No scouting, You have to invest in static defense while your opponent can drone super heavily, while at the same time him having mapcontrol and being able to take a third before you do. Also "sneaking slow lings into his base" is somewhat... lol, this just doesnt work against competent opponents. There is scouting. You can easily sneak out some zerglings before your opponent's zergling speed comes up. This is true even in 11 pool/gas scenarios, check the FXOtgun replays to see. Plus you have your original scouting drone, which you might be able to land an evo gas block. With the evo chamber vision you can keep tabs on what his larva is going to and thus deduce from the larva expenditure what he is doing (then when the evo dies try and pick off a drone with the broodlings). Not only this, you have forward overlords on the map, so you can see army positioning pretty easily, with the only exception being if he tried for a very hard all in while hiding his zerglings (and even this is very easy to stop). Static defense is reactionary to what your opponent is doing. Obviously you wouldn't make as much if he went hatchery first. Secondly, your opponent is spending a lot of larva himself on zerglings (which would prompt the static defense, if he didn't make zerglings there would be no need for static defense). Because you're spending all of your larva on drones, and spines are more cost effective vs zerglings than zerglings are vs spines, you will be ahead. Couple this with the fact that queens are also extremely cost effective, and you didn't delay your economy by getting gas too quickly. 'Sneaking slow lings into his base' is very viable as well. I've done it versus many good players, simply because there is a near infinite amount of space on the map to hide a scouting zergling, and all you'd need to do is poke in a few pixels into his natural to see his drone saturation (and maybe even his unit composition too/any buildings). Assuming you're talking about a hatchery first build getting gas and then a quick third because he has map control well: you're droning harder than he is. This is true because you're spending all of your larva on drones, and all of your drones are mining minerals as opposed to gas, and you're not teching at all. This means you will saturate quicker than your opponent unless you misjudged and made too many spines (even then, it'll be even or slightly unfavorable at worst). Thus, if your opponent did take a third he'd be hard pressed to saturate it because you have the economic advantage and would be extremely vulnerable to a 2 base timing. Even if he did manage to get the third up, you could start your third shortly after his and retain your economic advantage. He wouldn't be able to kill your third because you saturated quicker and that doubled with the fact that he invested in a quick third would leave his army too small. Not only the above, slow lings vs speedlings essentially negates the speed advantage that speedlings have over slowlings in fights. A slow ling has the same stats (with the exception of move speed) as a speed ling, and thus they'd trade pretty evenly in a confrontation. Your opponent doesn't know if you're going to all in him with a massive amount of lings, so he can't be too greedy either. Now if you say he gets banelings as well, then obviously you'd react differently but that would just delay his 'fast third' even more.. If it's not a hatchery first build, IMO your economic advantage will be so great that he will not be able to catch up unless he did some critical damage to you early. His hatchery would literally start after yours completed, and since this build is viable against even the earliest of pools (6/7/8/9/10/11 pool) that critical damage won't be dealt and if played correctly you'll have a sick economic advantage which you can hopefully translate into a win. | ||
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
But it allows clear domination of 3/4 of the builds out there in terms of macro, harvester production and has problems against 1/4 of the builds out there that focus on clear agression, ZvZ comes to mind only. No doubt spanish will refine it further, as ZvZ's have been my asspain for the last week using 16-15. P.S Blizzard needs to give us more map vetos  | ||
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Kfish
Chile282 Posts
^_^ killing a colossus, void ray, stalker, sentry, zealot, high templar army with 3/3 cracklings, infestors, ultras and queens is the funnest thing ever! | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
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HomicidaL
United States283 Posts
thanks OP | ||
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clever_us
United States329 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196040 On February 25 2011 05:04 DarKFoRcE wrote: This is just completely worthless. You absolutely need Zerglingspeed for Mapcontrol and to have the option to pressure when the opponent expands etc. You will also have alot of trouble defending against any kind of early push without Lingspeed. Also, taking Gas at 40 means that you will get super late t2. Overall, a horrible trainwreck of a build. Guess it just shows how much difference putting in the extra effort makes. Great job OP!! <3 <3 | ||
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aliciakeyzz
United States26 Posts
other issues: 15 hatch just loses to cannon rush + early zealot pressure basically impossible to hold 2 barracks. even if you do, afterwards you never know if he's going mass rax or expo. Mass marine up your ramp or in the back of your expo is gg without banes | ||
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Skipper.552
2 Posts
Great find! | ||
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Spanishiwa
United States91 Posts
Eng bay blocks are an interesting idea. But, either block him from blocking your expo, kill it by pulling off a few drones, or just go pool into hatchery/pick a different build. Obviously if your opponent is going to invest that much to stop you then you might want to change up your game plan. I hold cannon rush + early zealot pressure all day. Worst case scenario you let the hatchery fall while expanding to your third. I can upload some replays if you'd like. "basically impossible to hold 2 barracks" Check the replays with 2 rax in the title, they're against very strong players and I hold it off quite effectively. The same applies for your "you never know if he's going mass rax or expo" comment. Mass marine can be dealt with good spine positioning, slow lings, and queens + transfusion. I even hold it on close positions if they don't bring all of their SCVs. | ||
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