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I think you guys are underestimating the timings of the build. I will attach more standard games today when I get home showing it against forge fe, nexus first, 3 gate expand etc. Also they won't know that you're on 0 gas because spines deny scouting. You're also only making one or two more spine crawlers than you normally would with a gas build so I don't see the big deal here.
In zvz I think you're over estimating your opponent's ability to drone. You're droning as hard as possible, and quicker than your opponent. If he opts for a quick third you'll just roll him as he saturated it, or pressure him/take your own.
If you can't hold a 2 rax then you wouldn't have held it with any other hatch first build either so I think that point is moot.
Scouting p is simple, see when he takes his natural or if you're really concerned hatch cancel/evo trick his main and see from there.
About zvz: I've attached the hardest all ins I can think of. Early pools, early speedlings, early banelings. I'm not sure why you guys think it won't hold when the replays show that it does, against meta-game strategies to boot (they're doing blind all ins).
Stim timing holds as well, I'll find some replays when I'm home.
I think it works great against the popular light pressure into early expand into big scary 2 base push.
I don't think it works well against 1 base allins and fast thirds. In the show you said it's really easy to scout 1 base allins: I disagree. By the time you can scout he's 1 basing it's too late to get any useful tech (speed, banelings) in time, you have to rely on queens and spine crawlers because slow lings are useless. Those are great at defending your front but in my experience if a terran makes a commitment to get past the spine crawlers he will be able to do so. E.g. he can get one medivac and enough units to 1 shot a queen to negate transfuses, I don't think you can defend that. At least I haven't been able to.
Another point is fast thirds. Once a terran saw my queens and spines and expanded to the gold right away. I could not do anything about it, obviously, but I also could not expand myself easily: it's hard to defend 3 bases from harass with just queens and spines. You are more or less forced to wait at least for speed before taking your 3rd.
1 base all ins are completely stopped by this mass queen spine defense. It is very easy to scout 1 base all ins.. you sacrifice an overlord, or two from each side. If this is not possible you poke his front and judge from there. You should have a drone in his base gas stealing, and if he denied it then you can hatch/evo cancel trick or just poke his front and judge from there.
A medivac is just stretching the terran tech even further on one base.. 5 queens will be able to pick off any medivac ferrying units, and slow lings do just fine against drops when you have such little surface area to defend. 'Enough units to 1 shot a queen' is a bit much.. queens have 175 hp and 1 base armour, like what kind of units are they getting? That's like.. literally 35 marines. You'll have your tech by then..
Expanding to a quick third is viable maybe.. I feel it just leaves the terran open to multi prong attacks though, like baneling drops, burrowed infestors, zergling harass or burrow roach harass.
You say you get a pre-emptive spine crawler to deal with zeal/stalker harass. Doesn't that spine crawler negate some of the benefit that not getting zergling speed give you? Also, do you ever have issues when Protoss, seeing that you have no gas for quite some time, chronoboosts out 1st and 2nd stalker out and harasses with it? I find that dealing with stalker harass forces me to overproduce on lings, which completely negates the boost I got from getting a late gas.
On certain maps, such as ones with a wide natural, is one spine crawler going to be enough to fend off stalker harass? Where do you position it, and at what timing do you typically plant one?
Following up to that, have you ever had issues when he continually pump stalkers? Lings typically respond very well to stalkers because they are faster and can surround them, but it seems that without ling speed, stalkers can't get surrounded by lings unless they go onto creep for too long and get flanked. Is this simply a matter of having lings hidden, ready to flank, and having early creep spread?
Any defenses made to hold off initial stalker harass is worth it, because the protoss hasn't even started his natural at this point!
On maps like XNC you would need a second spine if they committed to heavy stalker, but if they did I would just add more queens and you would be fine IMO.
Creep spread, spine placement, and just a few slow lings will scare off any number of stalkers in the early game. It's a big investment on his part, and if he doesn't deal ridiculous damage he is too far behind.
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spanishwa you are so awesome! You almost make me want to play zerg.
Serious innovation though. I have been watching your stream as of late to find a way to beat your strategy. Really awesome write up. Keep it up and go win MLG.
One note, this build is definitely not susceptible to early pressure but have you had problems with a heavy macro terran that goes for an early 3rd and even 4th? About what time do you start to apply pressure?
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I saw your build on MrBitter's show and I have to say while it almost sounds crazy on paper, in practice, it seems very effective and almost "fool-proof".
I've had great success against Protoss with it but less success against Zerg.
Unless I can get a tight block at the ramp with my queens--which might be possible depending on the map--there seems be a timing windows where they can rush in will 24 speedlings and overwhelm me because spine crawlers are not very effective against speedlings.
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Very interesting build, it definetely has potential imo and i will try it out when i get. Home from work
However i imagine its vulnerable to some all ins aswell as fast thirds, for instance blink sttalkers probably hard counters this build or maybe someone with experience could enlighten me?
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On March 31 2011 23:22 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 23:09 kcdc wrote:On March 31 2011 21:35 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Meh. I see this mainly working because people dont realize the big weaknesses of this build. I absolutely dont see you holding some kind of 2 rax pressure into expand into 5 rax stimpush, as you will not even have zergling speed done when the push is outside of your base. and slow lings against stimmed MM is no fun.
Against P i find it problematic not to be able to scout very well (like checking whether he takes gas at his nat, cancel his nexus and stuff like that.. al that is way harder with slow lings). furthermore, as kcdc said, you have no offensive potential, so P can just take a third very save.
And in ZvZ i absolutely hate this build. No scouting, You have to invest in static defense while your opponent can drone super heavily, while at the same time him having mapcontrol and being able to take a third before you do. Also "sneaking slow lings into his base" is somewhat... lol, this just doesnt work against competent opponents.
Overall i think this build CAN work, if your opponent does not exploit it properly, but i think it is rather easy to exploit, at least in ZvP and ZvZ because it is easy to scout there. In ZvT i guess it might work out well sometimes, but if your opponents goes for an early stimpush or smth. like that youre screwed :/ Against P, I can see it working as sort of a 2-base tech turtle where you're essentially saying, "Ok Protoss, you can have map control and 3 bases, but I'm going to have lots of drones and I'm going to tech straight infestors and blings with OL drops, and soon after, I'll have ultras, and I'll beat your macro with unit efficiency." Didn't Zergs tech turtle to defilers against Terran all the time in BW? I don't think know exactly how efficient infestors + bling drops is going to be at this point, but there's no doubt that it rocks the hell out of the standard stalker, sentry, colossus + optional void ray composition. We'll have to see what happens when Protoss players adjust. You definitely dont have the gas to support infestor + baneling drop on 2 bases.
Really? The tech is a 1-time expense and you only need a few infestors to hold the army still while you bling bomb them. Once you have your tech up, you can take more bases. It doesn't strike me as more gas-intensive than, for example, a 2 base muta opening.
I don't know tho. I'm a P player and I've only run into this once. In that game, I definitely didn't respond optimally. I delayed my third several minutes unnecessarily and I let Spanishiwa sneak a third right next to my army when I definitely had 100% map control. If I'd fixed those issues, I might have had enough macro advantage to just muscle through his superior composition.
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On April 01 2011 00:52 Spanishiwa wrote:
're also only making one or two more spine crawlers than you normally would with a gas build so I don't see the big deal here.
The deal is that against heavy aggression you are making something like (maybe) 3-4 spines and 3-4 queens more than a gas build, which I don't think are cheaper than the cost of teching and getting units, especially considering that "real" units make you safer than queens and spines and allow you to do other stuff as well.
I really liked this idea in zvt because the timings work so that there is no "real" unit you can get and be safe, unlike zvp where you can grab a fast speed and be safe against anything he can do for the first 10 minutes. You made it look like queens were that unit, and they are against light pressure, but not against hardcore 1basing, and your build does not allow to transition out of queens fast enough for 1 base pressure.
I also don't understand how you think that in zvz making extra queens and spines does not put you behind somebody who makes only drones. the 100 gas they have mined will compensate for maybe 1 extra queen and 1 extra spine. you need way more than that to be safe against allins and you have no way to scout if an all-in is coming.
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The deal is that against heavy aggression you are making something like (maybe) 3-4 spines and 3-4 queens more than a gas build, which I don't think are cheaper than the cost of teching and getting units, especially considering that "real" units make you safer than queens and spines and allow you to do other stuff as well.
I really liked this idea in zvt because the timings work so that there is no "real" unit you can get and be safe, unlike zvp where you can grab a fast speed and be safe against anything he can do for the first 10 minutes. You made it look like queens were that unit, and they are against light pressure, but not against hardcore 1basing, and your build does not allow to transition out of queens fast enough for 1 base pressure.
I also don't understand how you think that in zvz making extra queens and spines does not put you behind somebody who makes only drones. the 100 gas they have mined will compensate for maybe 1 extra queen and 1 extra spine. you need way more than that to be safe against allins and you have no way to scout if an all-in is coming.
You won't be making 6-8 queens every game blind. You're reacting to your opponent. 4 queens is minimum, and honestly most players get a third queen anyway just for the creep spread. 1 extra queen isn't going to kill you.
Heavy aggression on one base should be worded as 'this is a 1 base all in, but i'm not going to bring my scvs'. The build doesn't focus on mass queens necessarily.. that's just the response. If he's one basing, then yes mass queen will crush it. So would anything else, though. What kind of 1 base all in are we talking about? You can decide between a baneling nest and a roach warren to defend any amount of 1 base all ins. The only trouble would possibly be a cloak 2 port banshee, but even then it's iffy because you have evo chambers anyway.
ZvZ: Is he opening hatch first? If he is, then there's no need for like more than 2 or 3 spines. If he isn't then you can build as many spine crawlers as you want, because even if he has 50 drones on one base they won't be more effective than 20 drones on 2 bases (which is what you'll have). You can also force them to make speedlings by just trading slowlings with their slowlings at the beginning of the game. Anything not hatch first will put you ahead, and anything hatch first you won't have to worry about that sort of early pressure (such that it would merit the production of extra spines). Active scouting will tell you what you need to do.
Unless I can get a tight block at the ramp with my queens--which might be possible depending on the map--there seems be a timing windows where they can rush in will 24 speedlings and overwhelm me because spine crawlers are not very effective against speedlings.
Yes you need a tight block for this to work, so it is somewhat map dependant. I will upload pictures illustrating this later today.
And in ZvZ i absolutely hate this build. No scouting, You have to invest in static defense while your opponent can drone super heavily, while at the same time him having mapcontrol and being able to take a third before you do. Also "sneaking slow lings into his base" is somewhat... lol, this just doesnt work against competent opponents.
There is a huge 110 second window before he gets his speedling tech up where you'll have slowling vs slowling. Scouting during this time is very easy, and you'll be able to tell what he's doing. He'll need to start his expansion during this time for it to be anything other than a 1 base all in. So you'll see from there. And it's not that difficult to hide a zergling or two during this stage around the map so that you can use it for scouting purposes. Overlord sacs can work too to check drone saturation and # of geysers taken.
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I think yall seriously underestimate how great this works against early pressure. Queens just dont die. Ever. Also the creep spread of the build is insane, for those of you worried about map control. And if yal are seriously worried about 2 bases, ninja a third. Protosses rarely scout for ninja thirds early in the game.
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AWESOME guide thanks spanishiwa. I love it when good players post zerg guides that aren't just a new timing/allin, but something for me to actually work on. Haven't watched the MrBitter vid yet but I'm going to as soon as I get home now.
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Hi Spanish, great guide of some new stuff for zergs to try out. IMO it always seemed like terrans could do something similar to this early game to grab a massive economic lead then just throw down multiple gas and tech up the tree in seconds. One question, does this build fall under heavy 2 base play or do you still take a third at normal times? (7-9 min marks)
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On April 01 2011 01:08 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 23:22 DarKFoRcE wrote:On March 31 2011 23:09 kcdc wrote:On March 31 2011 21:35 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Meh. I see this mainly working because people dont realize the big weaknesses of this build. I absolutely dont see you holding some kind of 2 rax pressure into expand into 5 rax stimpush, as you will not even have zergling speed done when the push is outside of your base. and slow lings against stimmed MM is no fun.
Against P i find it problematic not to be able to scout very well (like checking whether he takes gas at his nat, cancel his nexus and stuff like that.. al that is way harder with slow lings). furthermore, as kcdc said, you have no offensive potential, so P can just take a third very save.
And in ZvZ i absolutely hate this build. No scouting, You have to invest in static defense while your opponent can drone super heavily, while at the same time him having mapcontrol and being able to take a third before you do. Also "sneaking slow lings into his base" is somewhat... lol, this just doesnt work against competent opponents.
Overall i think this build CAN work, if your opponent does not exploit it properly, but i think it is rather easy to exploit, at least in ZvP and ZvZ because it is easy to scout there. In ZvT i guess it might work out well sometimes, but if your opponents goes for an early stimpush or smth. like that youre screwed :/ Against P, I can see it working as sort of a 2-base tech turtle where you're essentially saying, "Ok Protoss, you can have map control and 3 bases, but I'm going to have lots of drones and I'm going to tech straight infestors and blings with OL drops, and soon after, I'll have ultras, and I'll beat your macro with unit efficiency." Didn't Zergs tech turtle to defilers against Terran all the time in BW? I don't think know exactly how efficient infestors + bling drops is going to be at this point, but there's no doubt that it rocks the hell out of the standard stalker, sentry, colossus + optional void ray composition. We'll have to see what happens when Protoss players adjust. You definitely dont have the gas to support infestor + baneling drop on 2 bases. Really? The tech is a 1-time expense and you only need a few infestors to hold the army still while you bling bomb them. Once you have your tech up, you can take more bases. It doesn't strike me as more gas-intensive than, for example, a 2 base muta opening. I don't know tho. I'm a P player and I've only run into this once. In that game, I definitely didn't respond optimally. I delayed my third several minutes unnecessarily and I let Spanishiwa sneak a third right next to my army when I definitely had 100% map control. If I'd fixed those issues, I might have had enough macro advantage to just muscle through his superior composition.
As a zerg player who does nothing but tech to baneling bombs in the midgame for pretty much all of my ZvP games safe from some stargate protosses, I can definitely attest that you cannot go for baneling drops AND infestors at the same time.
Yes, the tech is a one time expense. But in order to have a reasonably good standing army ( roaches with lings , for example ) you need to sacrifice some 'techgas' for units. Getting infestor tech AND drop tech up costs 600 gas. Whereas just getting droptech costs 300 gas and leaves you with more gas to morph banelings or make roaches with.
If you do both infestor tech and baneling bomb tech off of two base, your standing army will be so small that the protoss could probably just kill you. If I get infestor tech, I get it after I take my third base and have a larger gas income. Else zerg dies too laughably quick to any kind of push. Even if you get the infestors and baneling bombs ready, what if you misplace a fungal? Or what if the protoss focus fires some overlords? I feel its too fragile for such a low base count.
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Chaos: my zvp style is ling bling, hence the double evos :p. I do just fine with the gas. Obviously you react differently to stargate play than robo, but yeah.
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I love the foundations of the build, but vs toss I am scared of that cannon cheese. What maps is the cannons cheese somewhat unstoppable?
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This build is terrible don't use it on the ladder. You will probably beat me.
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I love the foundations of the build, but vs toss I am scared of that cannon cheese. What maps is the cannons cheese somewhat unstoppable?
I don't think cannon cheese is unstoppable on any map if you scout and react in time.
Send your second overlord to your natural. Keep the overlord in sight of the back of minerals and where the hatch would be placed. If you can also see your ramp perfect.
The only cannon cheese I find is hard to defend is when a protoss saves 350+ minerals and puts a pylon behind my minerals and puts another pylon a little further away, but because of the placement you cannot get to the probe. The Protoss then sits back until they have enough minerals and drops a cannon.
If I now see a probe hovering around the back of my natural mineral field I will immediately pull two drones. One drone will patrol so the protoss cannot do a quick pylon drop and the other drone will attack the probe. I will then have another 4 drones selected in case I need to pull them.
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Ok watched some of the replays, dunno if it was b/c you were so pressured early on but your third timings seems a little delayed. However you had the minerals to throw the hatch down just not quite enough army to defend it easily. Is it pretty standard for you have a slightly delayed third with this build?
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Honestly if more Protoss players adopt the DT expand, this build will go out the window in PvZ. It's easy for Z to deny the protoss expansion after the DTs are warped in at 6:30, but it's just as easy for the P to all-in with DTs and focus hatcheries down. The Z player will never get detection out in time because the gas/lair is so delayed, and as long as they wall-off they can hold an infinite amount of lings while they are all-inning.
EDIT: Effective use of DTs were not addressed in the OP, Zergs, consider this your only warning.
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I can't wait to watch the replays...
I'm currently in the market to find a new way to play ZvZ...
Currently doing 1 game of roache play and 1 game of overpool and I feel that its a coin flip. So... if this works I might adopt it as my main strat...
Id just like to know something tho... how does it fair vs a 10pool that goes spines in your base??
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This is cool, gonna try it! To the haters, try it yourself!
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From what I've been reading in this thread and from theory crafting, a decent stim or c.shell timing push on like slag pits close proximity seems like it would be hard to defend with minimal drone sacrificing to spine overkill, but if you hold that you're ahead in economy. I guess since it's kind of new and the patch just came out some people think the build's not as good because <x> race can do all possibilities against it simultaneously, and any protoss who expod in reaction to this build probably gets killed within 12 minutes by a lairtech push, or you transition into lategame really easily by taking faster 3rds.
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EPT
