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On February 27 2012 14:19 ThomasHobbes wrote:
People are ignoring the strength of no-gas expands in ZvZ.
14 Pool / 16 Hatch -> 3-4 Queens and 1-2 Spines will hold almost any Ling / Bling pressure if done right, and you are not behind against FEs.
one player makes 2 queens extra and 2 spines
the other palyer expands
who wins?
gasless builds are pretty common now especially VS protoss but going blind mass queens with spines isnt common at all, just dont get gas until you need it and dont make defence until you need it
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On February 27 2012 14:19 ThomasHobbes wrote:
People are ignoring the strength of no-gas expands in ZvZ.
14 Pool / 16 Hatch -> 3-4 Queens and 1-2 Spines will hold almost any Ling / Bling pressure if done right, and you are not behind against FEs.
Usually when people go gasless, it's a hatch first in ZvZ. I can't see a gasless pool first expand working at all- he'll match your ling count with speed. You need that hatch up so you can sim city spines/evo chambers/roach warren and get queens out immediately.
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On February 27 2012 07:04 ticklishmusic wrote:I pretty much always FFE. It's really easy for me to scout this as Toss, either with my probe or with my initial zealot. Once I see no gas, I do a mental coin flip: Stargates or DT. Stargates are ridiculously strong against no-gas Zerg. They can't make many hydras because of the really late gas, so they go spores. Then you just run in with zealots and kill them. (Zealot vs. ling? Ok) DT's are a bit more risky, but you can almost always kill enough to be n par economically, plus ahead in tech. I remember when I first saw this build last year. I thought it was the most amazing thing ever, but smarter players have figured out how to break it. 
the build is safe against DTs and Stargate play, but it is upto the player to respond to it properly.
What's good against a gasless zerg who went for quick 3rd hatch is early zealots pressure because the zerg will tend to not have roaches
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On February 27 2012 14:19 ThomasHobbes wrote:
People are ignoring the strength of no-gas expands in ZvZ.
14 Pool / 16 Hatch -> 3-4 Queens and 1-2 Spines will hold almost any Ling / Bling pressure if done right, and you are not behind against FEs.
While I do like gasless opening vT and vP, I feel that it is weakest vZ. In the other matchups, zergling speed is not that helpful early on because your opponents will make a wall. In ZvZ, speedlings are an extremely useful unit that can harass drones and also scout what the opponent is making. Without speedlings to poke into the opponent's base, you're forced to play safe and make 1-2 extra queens and 1-2 spines.
A smart zerg opponent would make a bunch of speedlings to ensure that you make those extra defenses, then immediately take a 3rd base and drone up knowing that you can't really attack him until after you have some gas.
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DRG seems to do alot of gasless expands in ZvP
artosis said last night that he nearly always goes 3 base before gas in ZvP on daybreak. And thats what he did and it seemed to work
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On February 27 2012 17:26 ThatGuy89 wrote:
DRG seems to do alot of gasless expands in ZvP
artosis said last night that he nearly always goes 3 base before gas in ZvP on daybreak. And thats what he did and it seemed to work
Stephano does it a lot as well, saw it multiple times in ZvP at Assembly this weekend. Incredibly late first gas, sometimes after like 50+ supply.
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On February 27 2012 18:18 Ctuchik wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 17:26 ThatGuy89 wrote:
DRG seems to do alot of gasless expands in ZvP
artosis said last night that he nearly always goes 3 base before gas in ZvP on daybreak. And thats what he did and it seemed to work Stephano does it a lot as well, saw it multiple times in ZvP at Assembly this weekend. Incredibly late first gas, sometimes after like 50+ supply.
Gas after 50 supply feels soooo good! You feel on the edge a bit because you haven't got lair...but getting four gas instantly makes you feel "It's time"...
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On February 27 2012 18:18 Ctuchik wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 17:26 ThatGuy89 wrote:
DRG seems to do alot of gasless expands in ZvP
artosis said last night that he nearly always goes 3 base before gas in ZvP on daybreak. And thats what he did and it seemed to work Stephano does it a lot as well, saw it multiple times in ZvP at Assembly this weekend. Incredibly late first gas, sometimes after like 50+ supply.
Not taking gas in ZvP until ~6-6:30min is pretty much the standard nowadays
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Hey, I can see you have a lot of feedback, and one in particular got to me. Someone you played on ladder mentioned that you can't really put on pressure, and in my experience using the Ice Fisher build, a fast 3 command center build in particular just kills me. I'm only a diamond zerg, but it seems like you're giving up too much aggression and too many options for your economy lead. What do you do against a fast third?
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On February 27 2012 17:26 ThatGuy89 wrote:
DRG seems to do alot of gasless expands in ZvP
artosis said last night that he nearly always goes 3 base before gas in ZvP on daybreak. And thats what he did and it seemed to work
He only does it when toss forge FE's. Most zergs do that kind of style. When they don't forge FE you dont' do the gasless fast three base.
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On February 28 2012 10:27 the.toninator wrote:
Hey, I can see you have a lot of feedback, and one in particular got to me. Someone you played on ladder mentioned that you can't really put on pressure, and in my experience using the Ice Fisher build, a fast 3 command center build in particular just kills me. I'm only a diamond zerg, but it seems like you're giving up too much aggression and too many options for your economy lead. What do you do against a fast third?
lose
User was warned for this post
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On February 27 2012 14:40 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 07:04 ticklishmusic wrote:I pretty much always FFE. It's really easy for me to scout this as Toss, either with my probe or with my initial zealot. Once I see no gas, I do a mental coin flip: Stargates or DT. Stargates are ridiculously strong against no-gas Zerg. They can't make many hydras because of the really late gas, so they go spores. Then you just run in with zealots and kill them. (Zealot vs. ling? Ok) DT's are a bit more risky, but you can almost always kill enough to be n par economically, plus ahead in tech. I remember when I first saw this build last year. I thought it was the most amazing thing ever, but smarter players have figured out how to break it. the build is safe against DTs and Stargate play, but it is upto the player to respond to it properly. What's good against a gasless zerg who went for quick 3rd hatch is early zealots pressure because the zerg will tend to not have roaches
Admittedly I haven't played much recently, and the last time I saw this build was probably two months ago, but I've always fended it off pretty easily. I'm guessing the guy who did it against me was low masters to diamond (same as me). I always put down a Twilight council along with my Stargate for +2 and charge. There is no way Zerg will scout both structures because of the way I position them, unless he suicides more than one overlord and picks a really good pair of angles.
The scenarios are thus:
1. Zerg doesn't scout. Zerg dies.
2. Zerg scouts stargate. He immediately throws down evo chamber and starts making spores. I cancel stargate/make only a couple VR and go +2 DT-chargelot with a few stalkers. Depending on how many spores he makes, I kill him, or I expand behind it and am up in tech and about the same or ahead in eco.
3. Zerg scouts twilight council. I go air and force late spores, then I kill him with chargelots.
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LOL!!!!!
That's hilarious dude. Did they get the titles switched up or something? Or were they just a little confused?
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It's worth noting that DRG used builds very similar to this one a few times against MKP recently. One time he took 3(?) gas to roach/baneling all-in after the no gas opener and defending hellions with 4 queens+spine, but the other time he tried to take a fast third which ended up dying.
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I still <3 me some Ice Fisher builds. Hell, if it werent for the Ice Fisher, I never would have gotten to Gold league in the first place.
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On April 02 2012 00:58 TORTOISE wrote:
I still <3 me some Ice Fisher builds. Hell, if it werent for the Ice Fisher, I never would have gotten to Gold league in the first place.
Heh, got me to Gold too.
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On April 01 2012 09:50 Hulavuta wrote:
LOL!!!!!
That's hilarious dude. Did they get the titles switched up or something? Or were they just a little confused?
Yea...looks like the confused The Ice Fisher with Destiny's once-popular mass infestor style. Not that Spanishiwa was the only one doing this when he wrote the OP, but it sucks that something that has become so standard against FFE would be misattributed (in name at least).
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Just to get a clear opinion about this Build, isn't it already outdated for months?! I mean it doens't compete anymore with the current "meta game"?
I used to luv this defensive style of my Zerg play and i played this Build alot in like every matchup but nowadays i think it's quite "useless", especially on Masters/GM level.
Or is it still worth using it?
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On April 08 2012 08:29 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 09:50 Hulavuta wrote:
LOL!!!!!
That's hilarious dude. Did they get the titles switched up or something? Or were they just a little confused? Yea...looks like the confused The Ice Fisher with Destiny's once-popular mass infestor style. Not that Spanishiwa was the only one doing this when he wrote the OP, but it sucks that something that has become so standard against FFE would be misattributed (in name at least).
Destiny did use a tweaked Ice Fisher in his early days. (11OP 18H->Ice Fisher)
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EPT
