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madestro
Costa Rica108 Posts
I also feel some Ps just forge fast expand if they see me doing the spanishiwa opening and then pressure me with zealots so I have to make ling while they take a third and I fall behind for the mid game so maybe an 11 pool says "hey if you don't make units or cannons I'm gonna ling rush you now". Any thoughts or advices will be quite welcomed. | ||
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Mattsville
Australia19 Posts
I am Silver as well so take this with a grain of noobish salt. I've tried to make 11p 18H work as well, but it seems to delay the natural hatch (and its Queens and larvae) for far too long for my tastes. I've had a lot of success with 13 Hatch, 15 Pool which might be something you might want to try (This is something Spanishiwa was doing for a while as well). The 13 hatch often will go down just before Toss or Terran typically get there to block the Hatch going down, although it often happens that when they scout a later pool they will try and split your main and nat with Bunkers or Cannons/Pylons which can be a problem. Most times I can hold these off with a few drones, but it does sometimes happen that you have to cancel your hatch which is a big setback to say the least. For close positions on maps like Metalopolis, if I suspect heavy Rax or Gateway pressure making spines earlier than usual can help, as well as making more spines than I normally would (5-6 Spines, drones and a few Queens can hold off an awful lot and can often allow you to drone extra hard if he doesn't come with an overly large force). As for Forge fast expanding Toss, he shouldn't be able to apply too much pressure for at least a little bit due to the cost of the Nexus and a presumably later Gateway. Posting a replay in a separate thread to see if you are having trouble somewhere else in your play might help with this. But generally if I scout a FFE from Toss I generally try and drone extra hard as I'm counting on pressure later due to the earlier Nexus. I'll still get spines up just in case and will try and be extra vigilant with my scouting lings just to make sure I see what the Toss is teching to or what type of army he might be massing. I'll also get a 3rd a little faster if I can. Anyways, I hope this helps. Good luck! | ||
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Tendou
United States54 Posts
My name is Tendou.531 and I am a Diamond player and i think the 11 pool 18 hatch can definitely be used in spanishiwa's no gas FE. He even said it himself that he was testing with it. I experience your pain when you talk about cheeses in the early game. I used to be a huge proponent of 16 hatch 15 pool. However, when I got promoted to Diamond, I ironically face much more cannon rushes. Mattsville is right in that a 13 hatch 15 pool can be put down before a protoss blocks it however, it does not apply in smaller maps like xel'naga caverns. Not only that, when you pull off drones to stop a cannon rush, it makes the economic benefit of a hatch first null and void in my opinion. Against protoss due to pylon blocks and cannon rushes, I recommend the 11 hatch 18 pool build as it gives you so much flexibility to adapt and the eco you would get is made up with the early queen injecting larvae. Against a FFE, don't worry. This means he has nothing to pressure you. no pressure = power on drones Against terran, you can still do a 11 hatch 18 pool as you can stop 2 rax and bunker rushes. I sometimes do this if I cam facing a slightly favored opponent because 2 rax is very powerful in the hands of a better player. However, I am trying to transition back to my usual 16hatch 15 pool build as your drones can just hold off his early pressure alone until your pool pops for you to make lings and spines. Against zerg...I would not go hatch first. 11 pool 18 hatch is also a viable build here as well but i think you can't do spanishiwa as you need the gas for a defensive roach or baneling nest and you have an early pool to stay in an eco advantage as well as crush his cheese. | ||
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madestro
Costa Rica108 Posts
Since zerg is a cheese or roach fest I usually do the 7rr in a defensive mode and after the defense of banes or lings I leave a spine crawler at my main and go pressure, most of the time it wins me the game right there at the most if he has roaches I just fall back expand and keep making roaches, the farthest I got was a game where the other zerg tried a bane/ling strat and I held 2 attacks, expanded made like 14 roaches with burrow movement and he had no lair yet but it's just that I hate mirror matchups. I'll try the 13 hatch 15 pool on big maps like taldarim or on cross positions on other 4 player maps. If I keep having troubles I'll start a thread but right now I don't have enough games playing 11 pool 18 hatch to make a new thread. Thanks again for the suggestions (kinda bummed out that you faced more cheese in diamond than before, it just seems people don't want to learn o.0 ) | ||
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Tendou
United States54 Posts
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Zeweig
Sweden189 Posts
 Anyways... I was in bronze league with 0 macro and so bad micro that I tried to hit the thors and siegetanks with banelings xD But I tried the spanishiwa build and it completely made me rolfstomp anyone. It is really dependent on good macro, macro hatches and being good using a mobile force, and even if I was kinda extremely bad at all of those things, I still got an overwhelming force at the endgame! I had about 20-30% win before I started with the strategy, and after a few weeks of vacation, I just started to use it and scored 22-1 the first thing I did! Here's a few things that might help someone new to the build (though, I´m not a pro, so don´t be too harsh about details): Using 13hatch 15 pool isn´t as fragile as you might think... Almost all cheese requires longer time than it takes for you to get your pool up as long as you just keep droning (accept for 6-10 pools and some extreme rushes). Something you can see spanishiwa do a lot is scouting. Scouting is the thing that will save you when incoming cheese, and it has saved me a numerous of times. Use a drone in the beginning, and after you get your zerglings, use them as much as possible. As soon as you get your pool (about when hatch is done) put down at least one spine crawler and make at least 2 zerglings to scout. keep droning as he says and when you start getting 300-400 minerals over you can either throw down an expo somewhere (the gold base is preferable if you can keep the mapcontrol up) or throw down an additional macrohatch (a hatch in your own base to only use for production). Keep making queens! I have seen games where spanishiwa gets more than 8 and then just steamroll his opponent (especially when he use a nydus to get his queens into his opponents base). Don´t be afraid to put down a ton of spinecrawlers! you will swim in minerals, so all it really costs you is a drone, and as it often can save you when your opponent pushes, it is easily worth the money. Abuse Overseers, nydus networks, spread creep, get A LOT of expansions and dominate over your opponent! | ||
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FindMuck
63 Posts
11p18h is good because its really flexible. It has the option to be extremely eco based, with the early pool to stop canon rush/2 rax, etc | ||
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Zeweig
Sweden189 Posts
Then the "sick 6-racks TLO-style" appears to completely smash you, and you defend it like it was a bunker rush without scv's. That's how this build is supposed to be played! | ||
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B34ST
United Kingdom150 Posts
So many games lost which makes me rage. Also with the 11 opool 18 hatch your speed comes quicker then a hatch first, which is weird.. infestors come out quicker too :/ single expoing at 40 food now instead of double. | ||
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
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Garnet
Vietnam9014 Posts
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
On August 29 2011 18:16 Garnet wrote: This build dies instantly to DT rush/6 pool/11-11 Marine right? I just lost to a DT rush on Shakuras close air. Evo not up fast enough. If you see 2 chronos on the core, core finishing 3:42 (13 gate core), 14 gas (2355 gas @ 4:00, mines 116/minute), 18/19 gas after core, and no sentry warp-in at 6:20-6:25, then put an evo at 6:26 for spores at 7:31, clear all pylons around your base and you have 0:20 run distance time for the 7:10 warpin assuming he auto-made a sentry (0:42-0:10 chorno) or stalker (0:37-0:10 chrono) proceeding the zealot [this means no auto-twilight which gives them the agency to 6:45 warp]. T.T zerg problemz | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On August 29 2011 18:16 Garnet wrote: This build dies instantly to DT rush/6 pool/11-11 Marine right? I just lost to a DT rush on Shakuras close air. Evo not up fast enough. No need to follow it strictly. If your scouting information tells you that DTs are likely, throw the Evo up earlier so you can have a Spore by the normal DT timing. You may have to wait on a 3rd until you have a Lair for Overseers, but if you can crush the initial DT harass with just Spine/Spore while Droning up, you'll be ahead anyways. All Hatch first builds have trouble with 6 pool. Drone scout if you are uncomfortable playing blind against early pools, and if you scout it, cancel the Hatch and defend accordingly. 11/11 may be tough to hold on close positions, but since Speed/Banelings don't factor into the defense, Spanishiwa's build does no worse than standard Hatch first openers. In fact, it performs a little better because you don't have Drones mining unnecessary gas if it takes you a while to scout the 11/11. Just be ready to pull Drones to stop early Bunkers and get a well-placed Spine as soon as possible. Get good at judging how much he is committing to the pressure so you don't under or overmake Zerglings to defend. Remember that 11/11 is the least economical of all 2 Rax pressure openings. If you crush it, you will be vastly ahead. | ||
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Nate.F
918 Posts
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Gstew
United States11 Posts
1. There is no perfect build order, u can either have a good starting econ or army. Not both 2. As Stated SC is about action and reaction (notice I will not say counter) which is why scouting early, mid, and late game is key. Scout whenever u can. knowlege is half the battle, this is so true, you must know what your enemy is doing in order for you to know what you must be doing. 3. Also as stated build orders are not written in stone, if you even watch spanishiwa he'll cancel his expo, go pool first, change his timings. 4. Of course pros beat this build... pros win with this buid, that's cause no matter what BO you use u will win and lose games, no BO is perfect, no person is perfect 5. I am a sc2 silver league noob, if I can figure this out I see no reason why all you "pros" and more expierenced people can't. It's just SC basics. Personaly yes, I use this build order because it is ment to be versatile. Good map control and scouting (what do you think the lings are for?) amazing def with the spines and queens (with 4 queens and a few spines why wouldn't u be able to hold off, and lings dont take that long to make) puts you in an early econ lead which lets u pump out your army. Honestly Macro > Micro, but you must know how to do both, this build requires a lot of mechanics and good timing. Once again spanishiwa thank you, not just for the build order. Because of this and your advice I have gotten to be a better player overall. I look forward to the day that I play well enough at this game to play with a player of your caliber. And behalf of all of us i apologise for our rudeness. my ign: Garet 395 Best quote I have ever seen: Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong. | ||
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Yoman
United States11 Posts
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Barron
United Kingdom10 Posts
First off top marks to Spanishiwa for this, love watching his games, his style is unreal and it's something we can only hope to make work for ourselves but I doubt we will master it quite like him. I've been using this style for about 2 days now and I think I have it down quite well (for a bronze player) I have a little tendency to over commit to drones, or to many zerglings when early pressure is coming, but I'm sure I'll fix that in time :-) I have been opening 9 OL, 10 drone, extractor trick for 11/10 to have another drone queued up before OL pops. Is this viable ? Or just something I've convinced myself is a good habit? Also I've found vs Protoss that i struggle without Roaches. Late game isn't so bad when I have the infesters, ultras, broodlords for backup, but if I'm under early 2gate pressure from mass zealots, I find I'm spending a lot of minerals just on lings to survive the push rather than making drones. I normally have at least 3 spines up maybe even 5 but the constant pressure seems to drain the energy of my transfuse queens and eventually I'll loose some spines have to make more. Eventually I'll be over run. I've found that defending with lings till the gas pops, getting my lair, roach warren, speed upgrade gives me a lot better success and I can win the game more comfortably. Maybe that is just my style I'll have to integrate against P as other match-ups are pretty easy to get to the mid game, unless I get some 2-3 Rax marine all in (annoying :@ lol) Has anyone else had some issues with big zealot pressure early on? What solution did u find best? | ||
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ETisME
12345 Posts
On September 13 2011 19:13 Barron wrote: once you scouted 2 gate, drop a roache warren and get one gas.Hi guys first time poster here :-) First off top marks to Spanishiwa for this, love watching his games, his style is unreal and it's something we can only hope to make work for ourselves but I doubt we will master it quite like him. I've been using this style for about 2 days now and I think I have it down quite well (for a bronze player) I have a little tendency to over commit to drones, or to many zerglings when early pressure is coming, but I'm sure I'll fix tphat in time :-) I have been opening 9 OL, 10 drone, extractor trick for 11/10 to have another drone queued up before OL pops. Is this viable ? Or just something I've convinced myself is a good habit? Also I've found vs Protoss that i struggle without Roaches. Late game isn't so bad when I have the infesters, ultras, broodlords for backup, but if I'm under early 2gate pressure from mass zealots, I find I'm spending a lot of minerals just on lings to survive the push rather than making drones. I normally have at least 3 spines up maybe even 5 but the constant pressure seems to drain the energy of my transfuse queens and eventually I'll loose some spines have to make more. Eventually I'll be over run. I've found that defending with lings till the gas pops, getting my lair, roach warren, speed upgrade gives me a lot better success and I can win the game more comfortably. Maybe that is just my style I'll have to integrate against P as other match-ups are pretty easy to get to the mid game, unless I get some 2-3 Rax marine all in (annoying :@ lol) Has anyone else had some issues with big zealot pressure early on? What solution did u find best? You can still do icefisher defending mass zealots push will cost you a lot of lings, less larva for drones. Just leave one guy on gas once you get like 5 roache and you can react accordingly from there | ||
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Kaminoan
Chile25 Posts
On September 13 2011 19:13 Barron wrote: Hi guys first time poster here :-) First off top marks to Spanishiwa for this, love watching his games, his style is unreal and it's something we can only hope to make work for ourselves but I doubt we will master it quite like him. I've been using this style for about 2 days now and I think I have it down quite well (for a bronze player) I have a little tendency to over commit to drones, or to many zerglings when early pressure is coming, but I'm sure I'll fix that in time :-) I have been opening 9 OL, 10 drone, extractor trick for 11/10 to have another drone queued up before OL pops. Is this viable ? Or just something I've convinced myself is a good habit? Also I've found vs Protoss that i struggle without Roaches. Late game isn't so bad when I have the infesters, ultras, broodlords for backup, but if I'm under early 2gate pressure from mass zealots, I find I'm spending a lot of minerals just on lings to survive the push rather than making drones. I normally have at least 3 spines up maybe even 5 but the constant pressure seems to drain the energy of my transfuse queens and eventually I'll loose some spines have to make more. Eventually I'll be over run. I've found that defending with lings till the gas pops, getting my lair, roach warren, speed upgrade gives me a lot better success and I can win the game more comfortably. Maybe that is just my style I'll have to integrate against P as other match-ups are pretty easy to get to the mid game, unless I get some 2-3 Rax marine all in (annoying :@ lol) Has anyone else had some issues with big zealot pressure early on? What solution did u find best? Welcome to TL Barron I'm a high gold zerg and occasionally use this build to spice things up and do something different, so take thet into consideration. I remember seeing Losira use the "9 OL, 10 drone, extractor trick for 11/10 to have another drone queued up before OL pops" in the second mach of the grand finals in an MLG, and I don't remember who said it, whether it was a post or a Day [9] podcast, but I remember the info that said if a progamer does something, just do it and don't do overboard questioning it. I've never done it personally, but I know from my experience that just doing the extractor trick 11/10 ovie lets you put down a 15 hatch 3 seconds earlier, without having to over-micro your mining drones. I imagine that by doing the 11 drone before ovie pops ends up being more larvae efficient, but other than that, I don't know, I'll probably test it out some time. Something that will probably help you out is if you get a practice partner who just constantly 2gates you and u use spanishiwa opening, and figure out what the correct response is, without blind countering it. Remember transfused queens should act as your tank unit, along with your transfused spines acting as off tanks, while your spines are your damage dealing unit. Also remember, if your opponent went 2 gate, he's putting a lot of money into the attack and not his eco, therefore, you should be doing the same, putting all your money into defending the attack. Maybe finding some way to make the surface area of your spines smaller, like putting a evo chamber in front of them would help their survival-ability, ore else more spines or faster spines, but you need to practice against it so you have an automatic reaction to it. | ||
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Boisterous
17 Posts
On September 16 2011 11:23 Kaminoan wrote: Welcome to TL Barron I'm a high gold zerg and occasionally use this build to spice things up and do something different, so take thet into consideration. I remember seeing Losira use the "9 OL, 10 drone, extractor trick for 11/10 to have another drone queued up before OL pops" in the second mach of the grand finals in an MLG, and I don't remember who said it, whether it was a post or a Day [9] podcast, but I remember the info that said if a progamer does something, just do it and don't do overboard questioning it. I've never done it personally, but I know from my experience that just doing the extractor trick 11/10 ovie lets you put down a 15 hatch 3 seconds earlier, without having to over-micro your mining drones. I imagine that by doing the 11 drone before ovie pops ends up being more larvae efficient, but other than that, I don't know, I'll probably test it out some time. Something that will probably help you out is if you get a practice partner who just constantly 2gates you and u use spanishiwa opening, and figure out what the correct response is, without blind countering it. Remember transfused queens should act as your tank unit, along with your transfused spines acting as off tanks, while your spines are your damage dealing unit. Also remember, if your opponent went 2 gate, he's putting a lot of money into the attack and not his eco, therefore, you should be doing the same, putting all your money into defending the attack. Maybe finding some way to make the surface area of your spines smaller, like putting a evo chamber in front of them would help their survival-ability, ore else more spines or faster spines, but you need to practice against it so you have an automatic reaction to it. Yeah, I'm also in gold league and I have to say taht I try to keep my pair of zerglings somewhere around his base, and if at the point that my hatchery is up and he hasn't dropped a nexus yet I usually drop 2 spines for defense, and if after those come up he still doesnt have a nexus I'll drop another spine, an evo, and a spore at each base to protect against DT's and void rays. | ||
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