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On June 18 2011 11:53 Mych wrote:
Hey Spanishiwa!
I am having trouble using this strategy against terrans executing a 1/1/1 build and immediately launch a drop in my main where I have no spine crawlers placed and I have to run my queens back to defend it but if the terran does more than one drop he has a sizable force that can kill my queens!
What can i do to prepare for this if I scout it?
The intuitive response would be to get more queens. They'll buy you some time (+transfuse) to move/build crawlers, and threaten that medivac/viking/banshee, whatever he's getting out of that starport, plus they do well against the usual hellions that go with a 1/1/1 opening.
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I am also having trounle executing this build against terrans that do a siege tank push at the time my metabolic boost starts and I am switching from drone production to ling production.
The terran can just blast away at my spines from a safe distance and im stuck with only several un-upgraded slow lings to defend against 2 tanks and about 8 marines with stim.
Any suggestions on holding this?
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Against Terran ill use (depending on map of course) at xel naga for expample up to 3 spine crawlers. and go pretty early to speedlings. i just build a gas gysier and put 3 drones until i have 100 gas.around when the expension is up when im transferring drones. it cuts you down in minerals but loosing the game is worse  . build the spine crawlers not in a "row" so they can be attacked from the tanks simultaniously. when you counter attack move a spine crawler from the back forward to suck up tank fire at your lings. then surround. crucial here is the creepspread! to surround /flank the tanks/rines whatever. its a bit tricky and on the edge when the terran reinforces all-in-ish.
against terran its not bad to go baneling anyways. so could just optional leave them in the gas and build a baneling nest and counter directly / prevent expansion. that my be entireley different from the no gas build but again loosing is worse.
siometimes i also build a roach warren and 2 gas gysiers at main cause they cost no gas and optional put drones in / build roaches when is see somethings coming cause marines suck against roaches.
im gold so maybe dont take to diamond / master what i said cause the timing of rines tanks will be worse. but i encountered it quite a few times.
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Interesting so if I send a spine out and then send lings in, the tanks AI will attack the spines till its dead even if the lings are attacking the tank?
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no its basicly to get the lings at the tanks its just to suck up the first shot from each tank. and on optimum let the marines fire on the spine too. depends if the opponent A clicks on the spine.
if your lings can also get in touch with the marines thesy get splash damage from the second round.
speed is the key
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On June 18 2011 11:53 Mych wrote:
Hey Spanishiwa!
I am having trouble using this strategy against terrans executing a 1/1/1 build and immediately launch a drop in my main where I have no spine crawlers placed and I have to run my queens back to defend it but if the terran does more than one drop he has a sizable force that can kill my queens!
What can i do to prepare for this if I scout it?
It's quite easy to hold off, you just mass slowlings and use your 4 queens. Usually, the 1/1/1 attempts to elevator around 8 marines and 3 hellions. What you do is have your overlords along the rim of your base s you know where he's dropping, and have creep spread there too (your initial tumor dropped in your main, use that to spread within the main imo). When you see the incoming dropship, your 4 queens should already be together (it's not a very hard build to scout), and you need to focus fire the medivac while the lings suicide into the ground units. You should ahve at least like 20 slowlings. He won't even be able to elevator the second load.
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On June 21 2011 05:18 xanatas wrote:
no its basicly to get the lings at the tanks its just to suck up the first shot from each tank. and on optimum let the marines fire on the spine too. depends if the opponent A clicks on the spine.
if your lings can also get in touch with the marines thesy get splash damage from the second round.
speed is the key
Ya thats what I figured. I really like the idea of having the spines absorb some first damage though. Great idea.
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On June 21 2011 06:04 Mych wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 05:18 xanatas wrote:
no its basicly to get the lings at the tanks its just to suck up the first shot from each tank. and on optimum let the marines fire on the spine too. depends if the opponent A clicks on the spine.
if your lings can also get in touch with the marines thesy get splash damage from the second round.
speed is the key Ya thats what I figured. I really like the idea of having the spines absorb some first damage though. Great idea.
Personally I prefer to use Queens, but I guess spines could work. The reason I prefer queens is that they have a very large amount of health, and only take 35 dmg per shot. And if you're using queens, the AI will not switch to the lings, it'll stay on the queens. After 3-4 shots on the queen, it should still be alive, just use transfuse, and they'll stay alive, whlie your 20 or so slowlings kill off the marines easily.
Having a decent creep spread when the push hits is KEY.
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On June 21 2011 06:12 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 06:04 Mych wrote:On June 21 2011 05:18 xanatas wrote:
no its basicly to get the lings at the tanks its just to suck up the first shot from each tank. and on optimum let the marines fire on the spine too. depends if the opponent A clicks on the spine.
if your lings can also get in touch with the marines thesy get splash damage from the second round.
speed is the key Ya thats what I figured. I really like the idea of having the spines absorb some first damage though. Great idea. Personally I prefer to use Queens, but I guess spines could work. The reason I prefer queens is that they have a very large amount of health, and only take 35 dmg per shot. And if you're using queens, the AI will not switch to the lings, it'll stay on the queens. After 3-4 shots on the queen, it should still be alive, just use transfuse, and they'll stay alive, whlie your 20 or so slowlings kill off the marines easily. Having a decent creep spread when the push hits is KEY.
Queens are really the best choice to tank the tankfire (pun intended :p). They take 5 shots to kill and in the early game he will probably just have 2-3 tanks, so it's enough time to simply transfuse the queen back to full health between the shots.
I sometimes go up to 5 queens on 2 bases as they can defend _a lot_ of stuff with good transfuses (don't even need to be _perfect_ transfuses). Banshees, Void Rays, Tanks, Marines, Marauders, Zealots, Stalkers, ... Queens are cost effective against all of those. For example it takes 35 shots of a marine to kill a queen, so even with 10 marines it takes ~4 seconds to kill a queen, enough time to transfuse.
Queens are also a hard-counter to tanks. I once defended against 4 tanks with just 3 queens (well, the last 2 tanks unsieged and drove away, but you get the picture).
A good way to defend early tank/marine pushes is to position the slowlings outside of your base, then engage from the front with your queens and send your lings in from the back. Then quickly select your queens again and keep them alive with transfuses while your lings clear up the tanks.
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On June 21 2011 23:54 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 06:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On June 21 2011 06:04 Mych wrote:On June 21 2011 05:18 xanatas wrote:
no its basicly to get the lings at the tanks its just to suck up the first shot from each tank. and on optimum let the marines fire on the spine too. depends if the opponent A clicks on the spine.
if your lings can also get in touch with the marines thesy get splash damage from the second round.
speed is the key Ya thats what I figured. I really like the idea of having the spines absorb some first damage though. Great idea. Personally I prefer to use Queens, but I guess spines could work. The reason I prefer queens is that they have a very large amount of health, and only take 35 dmg per shot. And if you're using queens, the AI will not switch to the lings, it'll stay on the queens. After 3-4 shots on the queen, it should still be alive, just use transfuse, and they'll stay alive, whlie your 20 or so slowlings kill off the marines easily. Having a decent creep spread when the push hits is KEY. Queens are really the best choice to tank the tankfire (pun intended :p). They take 5 shots to kill and in the early game he will probably just have 2-3 tanks, so it's enough time to simply transfuse the queen back to full health between the shots. I sometimes go up to 5 queens on 2 bases as they can defend _a lot_ of stuff with good transfuses (don't even need to be _perfect_ transfuses). Banshees, Void Rays, Tanks, Marines, Marauders, Zealots, Stalkers, ... Queens are cost effective against all of those. For example it takes 35 shots of a marine to kill a queen, so even with 10 marines it takes ~4 seconds to kill a queen, enough time to transfuse. Queens are also a hard-counter to tanks. I once defended against 4 tanks with just 3 queens (well, the last 2 tanks unsieged and drove away, but you get the picture). A good way to defend early tank/marine pushes is to position the slowlings outside of your base, then engage from the front with your queens and send your lings in from the back. Then quickly select your queens again and keep them alive with transfuses while your lings clear up the tanks.
Think you're exaggerating a bit here  . But aight.
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On June 20 2011 12:04 Mych wrote:
I am also having trounle executing this build against terrans that do a siege tank push at the time my metabolic boost starts and I am switching from drone production to ling production.
The terran can just blast away at my spines from a safe distance and im stuck with only several un-upgraded slow lings to defend against 2 tanks and about 8 marines with stim.
Any suggestions on holding this?
By this time in the game, if I'm correct, you should have 4 queens?
If so, use the queens to attack the tanks, transfuse etc... then use the lings to clean up marines.
Usually vs terran, I transition out of the Spanishiwa build and I build a Roach Warren/2 Evos/Bling Nest then Ill grab lair and speed.
You should then be able to transition out of this early attack with minimal damage to your econ. That being said, I've learned playing defensively and having map control is the way to go.
So after that initial attack if there is mech play (tanks thors w/ marines mauraders) I try to get mass roahces and blings with speed for both and +1 melee and +1 defense. Then spread creep like crazy and basically A-attack when terran is on the move.
After repelling an attack I usually tend to expand and continue to deny their third. Then at 200/200 Ill just keep pushing with no end.
So all in all, use Roaches/Blings to defend/expand/deny3rd adn at 200/200 use roaches/blings to destroy everything. Works generally great in platnium. Also, I've heard this is how Losira plays? I don't know for sure though.
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On May 31 2011 18:12 Morfildur wrote:
Recently i struggle with this build because every single protoss goes forge first and puts cannons down in my natural. In some situations i can deal with it, but there are several maps where the probe can block itself in and get 1-2 cannons up and while i can sometimes defend it, there are often situations where i'm forced to cancel the hatch while he transitions into FFE.
What is the best way to deal with the situation of cannons completing if there is no easily accessible 3rd? (Basically all maps except shakuras, metalopolis/slag pits (non-close positions), typhoon peaks)
I've moved back to 14g/14p for now because all opponents (and all races) seem to open blindly with a strategy that is targetted at severely punishing an early hatch.
I have watched a few VODs of Spanishiwa having his natural cannoned. He always just grabs a base elsewhere but it is a problem. He used an interesting strategy against minigun on shattered: proxy hatch in Protoss main. This forces Protoss to put down cannons and a pylon because gateway isn't ready. Right before cannon finishes Spanishiwa cancels the proxy hatch and restarts somewhere else in the main. Rinse & repeat until the zealot comes out. He ended up winning with a drop in minigun's main (much later).
I've seen him lose to a cannoned natural, where his ramp was blocked. It is tough to deal with.
The minigun game is casted on YouTube.
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The Ice Fisher has helped me an insane amount(I'm high rank bronze lolz so its safe to say i fail horribly at sc2), I used to 9pool every game(thanx TL forums :D) and it was sufficient to beat most of the players I faced but it really was a struggle vs Terran if they counter-push... then THE ICE FISHER!!! really awesome build even though I aint doing it perfect yet early pressure? no problem haha and the economical advantage mid game if your opponent keeps pressure during the whole game(only happened once though) basically means you can just put up a 3rd or 4th depending on time and go kill the guy... then again I am in Bronze.
I do the 13p 15h vs P and T but vs Z its really hard to play this build... probably just need to practise it but against Z I prefer roughly the same "idea" but I go 11p and then hatch either on 23 or 25 because ZvZ is just plain hell and sitting on 1 base for a little longer in ZvZ is better in bronze for some reason :/
anyway wp and thanx for this build its helping a lot and not just for rankings but it helps me understand the game(any low level okes can do this,not at pro level obviously, and it helps your general sc2 skills heavily) more and that's the reason I'll continue to use this time and time again thumbs up 
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Hey lomek, so even a low level player like me can do this build? Me happy ^^
also it's really not bad to sit on 1base a little in ZvZ, I heard sheth say in 12weeks with the pro's that he also prefers one base, check it out
I want to switch back to zerg (yes back, it's kind of a long story ^^) do people here think I could do this build succesful with my mere silver skills?
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This build can eventually make protoss go robo instead of air because he sees large creep spread
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Does anyone know why Spanishiwa doesn't use this build anymore?
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1300 Master opinion:
This build has been very useful for me. I was able to improve my play a lot but after some time i just picked the elements i like about it and made up my own build for each maps.
For ZvT and ZvP i find the general theme of getting late gas very useful. I have not faced a rush that can not be defeated with queens, static defense and some emergency slow lings.
Other than that i don't think this build is the strongest but it's great for people learning early Zerg play.
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On June 20 2011 12:04 Mych wrote:
I am also having trounle executing this build against terrans that do a siege tank push at the time my metabolic boost starts and I am switching from drone production to ling production.
The terran can just blast away at my spines from a safe distance and im stuck with only several un-upgraded slow lings to defend against 2 tanks and about 8 marines with stim.
Any suggestions on holding this?
Yes, your creep spread should be really far ahead and you should be able to of scouted the push happening, if you did the build properly the speed should finish right before the normal 7:30~ tank marine push happens. If its later you are doing the build wrong and I suggest pulling the time you make gas back or being more focused on when you spend it.
As for tanks, if he has tanks before your speed finishes (like a crazy early tank pressure) basic slowlings will suffice, as he won't have a lot of marines. YOu just have to "overproduce" lings to defend (30ish) I know that sounds bad, but if the terran RUSHED tanks then you are 100% fine to make those lings if you can kill the push. That gives you enough time to get speed out and you can drone to saturation.
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On July 04 2011 02:56 Grayboosh wrote:
Does anyone know why Spanishiwa doesn't use this build anymore?
No one can answer this for sure except spanishiwa himself, but I think this build is a victim of it's own success. Every build has strOng and weak timings against it. If everyone in the world
Knows your build, someone will be able to pick it apart.
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EPT
