EPT[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 55
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Dyson.764
United States2 Posts
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metharon
Sweden71 Posts
On August 29 2011 18:16 Garnet wrote: This build dies instantly to DT rush/6 pool/11-11 Marine right? I just lost to a DT rush on Shakuras close air. Evo not up fast enough. As it says in the liquidpedia page on the ice fisher build: if you're playing blind, get a evo down sooner and have spore crawlers ready for the 7 min mark. As far as 6 pool is concerned, a early hatch build usualy beats them simply by having more units, even tho they are drones. With some micro (drone drilling etc), you should be able to beat it with minimal losses. | ||
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Anjube
Australia2 Posts
I feel safe against nearly every match cept close positions vsing another zerg. It gives you time and resources to scout then branch out into any mid game as Queens, Spines, Zerglings and drones are very good defence for any early aggression. Thanks for the build and have fun ice fishing  | ||
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Ferniya
Germany7 Posts
i dont see spanish use this build that often when he streams, he gets a much more earlier gas for example. :S | ||
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B34ST
United Kingdom150 Posts
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redloser
Korea (South)1750 Posts
On November 04 2011 11:41 Ferniya wrote: is this build actually still viable? i dont see spanish use this build that often when he streams, he gets a much more earlier gas for example. :S It's not really viable, but the concept of the build is :/ Getting absolutely no gas in the early stage takes away so many things, so you'd rather take an early gas, mine 100 gas, and stop mining gas. | ||
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Affluenza
United Kingdom214 Posts
I really enjoy getting gas late and just droning up and getting defences... | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
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silentdecay01
United States106 Posts
On November 04 2011 13:16 redloser wrote: It's not really viable, but the concept of the build is :/ Getting absolutely no gas in the early stage takes away so many things, so you'd rather take an early gas, mine 100 gas, and stop mining gas. Late gas works very well vs toss these days, as you don't need the speed upgrade early vs ffe or toss wallins make speedling run bys pointless. So vs toss you can still do a type of icefisher with a pool first instead of a hatch, can deley gas till 8 mins or so and still counter early presure fine. | ||
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RaiD.RaynoR
United States294 Posts
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Facultyadjutant
Sweden1876 Posts
On February 27 2012 03:56 RaiD.RaynoR wrote: I just don't see this build viable against decent players. Terrans love to go banshees more than often these days and this build does not stand a chance to the ridiculous amount of 2 base all ins conducted by toss. ZvZ is a bit better but I do not recommend this build at higher levels of play. This build is from march last year and is one of the most tried and safe builds used from the lowest to highest skill of play. One of the oldest and solid builds out there. This is obviously not against ffe except it puts you great for a infestor/ling timing if you do choose to go so or forcing you to do the hatch block. I do not usually react but ''Do not recommend at higher levels of play'' is a little arrogantly to this build with its long history. To be specific about what you talked about - You can easily have 4 queens with this build, and evolution chamber is always the same timing, there is no reason you shouldn't be safe. | ||
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Makura
United States317 Posts
In ZvZ i just dont see how it would be viable | ||
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RaiD.RaynoR
United States294 Posts
On February 27 2012 04:03 Facultyadjutant wrote: This build is from march last year and is one of the most tried and safe builds used from the lowest to highest skill of play. One of the oldest and solid builds out there. This is obviously not against ffe except it puts you great for a infestor/ling timing if you do choose to go so or forcing you to do the hatch block. I do not usually react but ''Do not recommend at higher levels of play'' is a little arrogantly to this build with its long history. To be specific about what you talked about - You can easily have 4 queens with this build, and evolution chamber is always the same timing, there is no reason you shouldn't be safe. Yes I do know that this build came out during march of last year, but what I am stating is mere truth while you are providing defense with a sentimental reason. Plus, banshees can easily out maneuver spores and can take out queens and structures when massed. It has been done more than enough times by pros because of micro. Again the more effort you put into killing banshees the further you get delayed. | ||
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silentdecay01
United States106 Posts
On February 27 2012 04:03 Facultyadjutant wrote: This build is from march last year and is one of the most tried and safe builds used from the lowest to highest skill of play. One of the oldest and solid builds out there. This is obviously not against ffe except it puts you great for a infestor/ling timing if you do choose to go so or forcing you to do the hatch block. I do not usually react but ''Do not recommend at higher levels of play'' is a little arrogantly to this build with its long history. To be specific about what you talked about - You can easily have 4 queens with this build, and evolution chamber is always the same timing, there is no reason you shouldn't be safe. considering standard play vs toss is late gas, this works great vs ffe, with a pool first to prevent any type of cannon rush...setting up for a 3 base muta with ease, or destiney style ling/roach timming. works alot better then 1 gas 3 base vs ffe allows for a stronger ecom and mass gas income @ the time you need to get out alot of early muta. It works great in masters, I never had any problems with it. And vs terran if you are scouting or worried about a banshee time, early evo and queens do the trick, I don't see the issue banshees cant do much. Icefisher uses alot of queens in the first place, and by tthe time cloak comes out you should be grabing your gas anyway. Only thing that the build is bad against are early sidge tank/marine pushes, but you can scout and grab a gas early to counter that. All in all if you scout a macro game its a great solid build. Honestly its used often on NA masters, friends who are top 5 masters do it often and enjoy it. | ||
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SKGZombie
United States42 Posts
Ill start with ZvP Ret likes to use an 11 pool to get out early lings to stop any pylon blocking at your nat and then secure map control while getting 2 queens and a third base at around 5:30 vs FFE. He then delays gas until around 36 supply when he takes 2 geysers. For more on this build you can watch Day 9 daily # 422 found here http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-422-p1-liquidret-zvp-5969774 http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-422-p2-liquidret-zvp-5969836 http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-422-p3-liquidret-zvp-5969842 Ive seen destiny use this build in ZvP but he only gets 2 queens vs FFE and then takes 4 gas at 40-44 supply to go mass muta on 2 base with spines for defence then takes a third and sometimes fourth base while harrassing protoss with muta ling. This is a good build if protoss is trying for a fast third on a map like TDA its probably not the best vs a 2 base allin. In ZvT Morrow has a hatch first 4 queen build which delays gas until around (sorry cant remember exactly) Its either 26 supply or 36 when he takes 1 gas to get ling speed and then the rest depends on what his opponent is up to. Hopefully someone can comment on when morrow takes his gas. This build is great for stopping reactor hellions and banshee or any type of early pressure terran might throw at you while getting ling speed out in time to defend any marine tank push that might hit you around 8-10 minutes. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Once I see no gas, I do a mental coin flip: Stargates or DT. Stargates are ridiculously strong against no-gas Zerg. They can't make many hydras because of the really late gas, so they go spores. Then you just run in with zealots and kill them. (Zealot vs. ling? Ok) DT's are a bit more risky, but you can almost always kill enough to be n par economically, plus ahead in tech. I remember when I first saw this build last year. I thought it was the most amazing thing ever, but smarter players have figured out how to break it.  | ||
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zylog
Canada943 Posts
In ZvT, taking a later gas means more minerals to make extra queens and a wall to protect against hellions. Behind that, you mass drones only going back to mining gas once saturated which will make you really strong against 2 base timings. In ZvP, gasless double expand is quite common vs forge expand. 2-3 gases are taken between 30-40 food (depending on style), queens and spores are relied upon for anti-air. Stephano takes the concept a step further by only taking half his gases in the early-midgame, enabling him to emphasize a mineral heavy roach ling composition while continuing to add expansions. Only once he's ready to transition to a gas heavy army does he take the remaining gases. Alternatively, a lot of 2 base openings against P involve delaying gas until 40 to power drones, making a wall of spines to protect against warpgate timings then teching to something like infestors/mutas. | ||
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FuzzyLord
253 Posts
On February 27 2012 04:36 RaiD.RaynoR wrote: Yes I do know that this build came out during march of last year, but what I am stating is mere truth while you are providing defense with a sentimental reason. Plus, banshees can easily out maneuver spores and can take out queens and structures when massed. It has been done more than enough times by pros because of micro. Again the more effort you put into killing banshees the further you get delayed. Sorry if i don't know the exact numbers and timings on the builds, but your argument is kind of invalid. It's not very hard to defend your base with 2-3 spores w/ 2 queens per base. Since this build is focused on economy , you will have a vastly superior income than the terran. Early spines deny early marine + hellion pressure. Just dropping a spore at your mineral lines and a spore at your hatchery should be enough to cover your base from banshees. You don't necessarily have to KILL the banshee, but just denying it from doing damage is just about the same. Banshees can easily out maneuver spores and can take out queens and structures when massed 1) A lot of things can kill queens and structures when massed 2) If they are able to get a big mass of banshees w/o your knowledge, you're probably doing something horribly horribly wrong. "The more effort you put into killing banshees the further you get delayed" 1) If you really can't spare that tiny bit of gas for spores, you probably are already behind... 2) After Queens inject, they don't do anything but sit on their asses. Don't know how queens that are attacking delay your build. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On February 27 2012 03:08 crocodile wrote: At any level below master league, you'll probably still do very very well with this build. I hate when people declare a build not viable because at the pro level it can be beaten easily. Ey. What is slowly becoming the standard in ZvT is a very delayed gas, much like the ice fisher. Personally I get double gas at any point inbetween 28-44. In ZvP, various different 'icefisher-esque' builds are used for a really solid mid-game. | ||
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
14 Pool / 16 Hatch -> 3-4 Queens and 1-2 Spines will hold almost any Ling / Bling pressure if done right, and you are not behind against FEs. | ||
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