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[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 55

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Dyson.764
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2 Posts
September 30 2011 07:40 GMT
#1081
I've been using this build for a few days now and i'm finally starting to feel really safe early game vs P and T. I just kept forgetting to get more queens at first and kept dying to banshees=/ But excellent job Spanishiwa!
metharon
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden71 Posts
October 07 2011 19:30 GMT
#1082
On August 29 2011 18:16 Garnet wrote:
This build dies instantly to DT rush/6 pool/11-11 Marine right? I just lost to a DT rush on Shakuras close air. Evo not up fast enough.


As it says in the liquidpedia page on the ice fisher build: if you're playing blind, get a evo down sooner and have spore crawlers ready for the 7 min mark.

As far as 6 pool is concerned, a early hatch build usualy beats them simply by having more units, even tho they are drones. With some micro (drone drilling etc), you should be able to beat it with minimal losses.
Anjube
Profile Joined October 2011
Australia2 Posts
October 09 2011 05:32 GMT
#1083
Spanishiwa you are my absolute hero ;D. After casually playing sc2 for a few months and getting rofl stomped no matter who I vsed I tried out the ice fisher build. And i've got to say that it is the most amazing build i've come across for a defensive zerg.

I feel safe against nearly every match cept close positions vsing another zerg. It gives you time and resources to scout then branch out into any mid game as Queens, Spines, Zerglings and drones are very good defence for any early aggression.

Thanks for the build and have fun ice fishing
Zerg Strategy #1. Mass
Ferniya
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany7 Posts
November 04 2011 02:41 GMT
#1084
is this build actually still viable?

i dont see spanish use this build that often when he streams, he gets a much more earlier gas for example. :S
B34ST
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom150 Posts
November 04 2011 04:12 GMT
#1085
I still use it.. the principles of the build are still used by a high amount of zergs.. the build order it's self might not be.
redloser
Profile Joined May 2011
Korea (South)1724 Posts
November 04 2011 04:16 GMT
#1086
On November 04 2011 11:41 Ferniya wrote:
is this build actually still viable?

i dont see spanish use this build that often when he streams, he gets a much more earlier gas for example. :S


It's not really viable, but the concept of the build is :/

Getting absolutely no gas in the early stage takes away so many things, so you'd rather take an early gas, mine 100 gas, and stop mining gas.
Affluenza
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom214 Posts
February 26 2012 17:58 GMT
#1087
Has there been a modification and improvement of this build in recent weeks?

I really enjoy getting gas late and just droning up and getting defences...
My children, the hour of our victory is at hand. For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.
crocodile
Profile Joined February 2011
United States615 Posts
February 26 2012 18:08 GMT
#1088
At any level below master league, you'll probably still do very very well with this build. I hate when people declare a build not viable because at the pro level it can be beaten easily.
Master League Terran. Huge fan of Quantic Gaming and ROOTDestiny
silentdecay01
Profile Joined February 2012
United States106 Posts
February 26 2012 18:46 GMT
#1089
On November 04 2011 13:16 redloser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 11:41 Ferniya wrote:
is this build actually still viable?

i dont see spanish use this build that often when he streams, he gets a much more earlier gas for example. :S


It's not really viable, but the concept of the build is :/

Getting absolutely no gas in the early stage takes away so many things, so you'd rather take an early gas, mine 100 gas, and stop mining gas.

Late gas works very well vs toss these days, as you don't need the speed upgrade early vs ffe or toss wallins make speedling run bys pointless.

So vs toss you can still do a type of icefisher with a pool first instead of a hatch, can deley gas till 8 mins or so and still counter early presure fine.

RaiD.RaynoR
Profile Joined February 2012
United States294 Posts
February 26 2012 18:56 GMT
#1090
I just don't see this build viable against decent players. Terrans love to go banshees more than often these days and this build does not stand a chance to the ridiculous amount of 2 base all ins conducted by toss. ZvZ is a bit better but I do not recommend this build at higher levels of play.
Redemption is the consequence of forgiveness
Facultyadjutant
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Sweden1876 Posts
February 26 2012 19:03 GMT
#1091
On February 27 2012 03:56 RaiD.RaynoR wrote:
I just don't see this build viable against decent players. Terrans love to go banshees more than often these days and this build does not stand a chance to the ridiculous amount of 2 base all ins conducted by toss. ZvZ is a bit better but I do not recommend this build at higher levels of play.


This build is from march last year and is one of the most tried and safe builds used from the lowest to highest skill of play.

One of the oldest and solid builds out there. This is obviously not against ffe except it puts you great for a infestor/ling timing if you do choose to go so or forcing you to do the hatch block.

I do not usually react but ''Do not recommend at higher levels of play'' is a little arrogantly to this build with its long history.


To be specific about what you talked about - You can easily have 4 queens with this build, and evolution chamber is always the same timing, there is no reason you shouldn't be safe.
#1 FAN OF TERRY THE INTERN - NONY AND IDRA NUMBER #1, EVERY DAY. AXIOM MANOR - Axiom: Ryung, Alicia, Heart and Crank under the Don TotalBiscuit and the Donnesa Genna Bain- Join the family http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396090#2
Makura
Profile Joined December 2010
United States317 Posts
February 26 2012 19:30 GMT
#1092
Modifications of this build are very common in zvt and zvp. Heavy queen reliance is of course a must and usually involves a quick third into a whole bunch of lings to hold off the inevitable 3-6 zealots that are warped in to take out the 3rd.

In ZvZ i just dont see how it would be viable
SHOW THEM WHAT THE CATFISH COMBO IS ALL ABOUT!
RaiD.RaynoR
Profile Joined February 2012
United States294 Posts
February 26 2012 19:36 GMT
#1093
On February 27 2012 04:03 Facultyadjutant wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2012 03:56 RaiD.RaynoR wrote:
I just don't see this build viable against decent players. Terrans love to go banshees more than often these days and this build does not stand a chance to the ridiculous amount of 2 base all ins conducted by toss. ZvZ is a bit better but I do not recommend this build at higher levels of play.


This build is from march last year and is one of the most tried and safe builds used from the lowest to highest skill of play.

One of the oldest and solid builds out there. This is obviously not against ffe except it puts you great for a infestor/ling timing if you do choose to go so or forcing you to do the hatch block.

I do not usually react but ''Do not recommend at higher levels of play'' is a little arrogantly to this build with its long history.


To be specific about what you talked about - You can easily have 4 queens with this build, and evolution chamber is always the same timing, there is no reason you shouldn't be safe.

Yes I do know that this build came out during march of last year, but what I am stating is mere truth while you are providing defense with a sentimental reason. Plus, banshees can easily out maneuver spores and can take out queens and structures when massed. It has been done more than enough times by pros because of micro. Again the more effort you put into killing banshees the further you get delayed.
Redemption is the consequence of forgiveness
silentdecay01
Profile Joined February 2012
United States106 Posts
February 26 2012 19:45 GMT
#1094
On February 27 2012 04:03 Facultyadjutant wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2012 03:56 RaiD.RaynoR wrote:
I just don't see this build viable against decent players. Terrans love to go banshees more than often these days and this build does not stand a chance to the ridiculous amount of 2 base all ins conducted by toss. ZvZ is a bit better but I do not recommend this build at higher levels of play.


This build is from march last year and is one of the most tried and safe builds used from the lowest to highest skill of play.

One of the oldest and solid builds out there. This is obviously not against ffe except it puts you great for a infestor/ling timing if you do choose to go so or forcing you to do the hatch block.

I do not usually react but ''Do not recommend at higher levels of play'' is a little arrogantly to this build with its long history.


To be specific about what you talked about - You can easily have 4 queens with this build, and evolution chamber is always the same timing, there is no reason you shouldn't be safe.



considering standard play vs toss is late gas, this works great vs ffe, with a pool first to prevent any type of cannon rush...setting up for a 3 base muta with ease, or destiney style ling/roach timming. works alot better then 1 gas 3 base vs ffe allows for a stronger ecom and mass gas income @ the time you need to get out alot of early muta.

It works great in masters, I never had any problems with it. And vs terran if you are scouting or worried about a banshee time, early evo and queens do the trick, I don't see the issue banshees cant do much.

Icefisher uses alot of queens in the first place, and by tthe time cloak comes out you should be grabing your gas anyway.

Only thing that the build is bad against are early sidge tank/marine pushes, but you can scout and grab a gas early to counter that.

All in all if you scout a macro game its a great solid build. Honestly its used often on NA masters, friends who are top 5 masters do it often and enjoy it.
SKGZombie
Profile Joined February 2012
United States42 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-26 21:10:47
February 26 2012 21:08 GMT
#1095
Ive seen many pros use this or a variation of this build in the ZvP and ZvT matchups.

Ill start with ZvP Ret likes to use an 11 pool to get out early lings to stop any pylon blocking at your nat and then secure map control while getting 2 queens and a third base at around 5:30 vs FFE. He then delays gas until around 36 supply when he takes 2 geysers. For more on this build you can watch Day 9 daily # 422 found here

http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-422-p1-liquidret-zvp-5969774
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-422-p2-liquidret-zvp-5969836
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-422-p3-liquidret-zvp-5969842

Ive seen destiny use this build in ZvP but he only gets 2 queens vs FFE and then takes 4 gas at 40-44 supply to go mass muta on 2 base with spines for defence then takes a third and sometimes fourth base while harrassing protoss with muta ling. This is a good build if protoss is trying for a fast third on a map like TDA its probably not the best vs a 2 base allin.

In ZvT Morrow has a hatch first 4 queen build which delays gas until around (sorry cant remember exactly) Its either 26 supply or 36 when he takes 1 gas to get ling speed and then the rest depends on what his opponent is up to. Hopefully someone can comment on when morrow takes his gas. This build is great for stopping reactor hellions and banshee or any type of early pressure terran might throw at you while getting ling speed out in time to defend any marine tank push that might hit you around 8-10 minutes.
If I live I will kill you if I die you are foregivin such is the rule of honor
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-26 22:05:39
February 26 2012 22:04 GMT
#1096
I pretty much always FFE. It's really easy for me to scout this as Toss, either with my probe or with my initial zealot.

Once I see no gas, I do a mental coin flip: Stargates or DT. Stargates are ridiculously strong against no-gas Zerg. They can't make many hydras because of the really late gas, so they go spores. Then you just run in with zealots and kill them. (Zealot vs. ling? Ok) DT's are a bit more risky, but you can almost always kill enough to be n par economically, plus ahead in tech.

I remember when I first saw this build last year. I thought it was the most amazing thing ever, but smarter players have figured out how to break it.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
zylog
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada943 Posts
February 27 2012 01:00 GMT
#1097
I would say that the concept of delaying gas income and tech in favour of heavier droning is something that has been incorporated into current economy oriented zvt and zvp builds.

In ZvT, taking a later gas means more minerals to make extra queens and a wall to protect against hellions. Behind that, you mass drones only going back to mining gas once saturated which will make you really strong against 2 base timings.

In ZvP, gasless double expand is quite common vs forge expand. 2-3 gases are taken between 30-40 food (depending on style), queens and spores are relied upon for anti-air. Stephano takes the concept a step further by only taking half his gases in the early-midgame, enabling him to emphasize a mineral heavy roach ling composition while continuing to add expansions. Only once he's ready to transition to a gas heavy army does he take the remaining gases.

Alternatively, a lot of 2 base openings against P involve delaying gas until 40 to power drones, making a wall of spines to protect against warpgate timings then teching to something like infestors/mutas.
FuzzyLord
Profile Joined September 2010
253 Posts
February 27 2012 01:34 GMT
#1098
On February 27 2012 04:36 RaiD.RaynoR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 27 2012 04:03 Facultyadjutant wrote:
On February 27 2012 03:56 RaiD.RaynoR wrote:
I just don't see this build viable against decent players. Terrans love to go banshees more than often these days and this build does not stand a chance to the ridiculous amount of 2 base all ins conducted by toss. ZvZ is a bit better but I do not recommend this build at higher levels of play.


This build is from march last year and is one of the most tried and safe builds used from the lowest to highest skill of play.

One of the oldest and solid builds out there. This is obviously not against ffe except it puts you great for a infestor/ling timing if you do choose to go so or forcing you to do the hatch block.

I do not usually react but ''Do not recommend at higher levels of play'' is a little arrogantly to this build with its long history.


To be specific about what you talked about - You can easily have 4 queens with this build, and evolution chamber is always the same timing, there is no reason you shouldn't be safe.

Yes I do know that this build came out during march of last year, but what I am stating is mere truth while you are providing defense with a sentimental reason. Plus, banshees can easily out maneuver spores and can take out queens and structures when massed. It has been done more than enough times by pros because of micro. Again the more effort you put into killing banshees the further you get delayed.


Sorry if i don't know the exact numbers and timings on the builds, but your argument is kind of invalid. It's not very hard to defend your base with 2-3 spores w/ 2 queens per base. Since this build is focused on economy , you will have a vastly superior income than the terran. Early spines deny early marine + hellion pressure. Just dropping a spore at your mineral lines and a spore at your hatchery should be enough to cover your base from banshees. You don't necessarily have to KILL the banshee, but just denying it from doing damage is just about the same.
Banshees can easily out maneuver spores and can take out queens and structures when massed

1) A lot of things can kill queens and structures when massed
2) If they are able to get a big mass of banshees w/o your knowledge, you're probably doing something horribly horribly wrong.
"The more effort you put into killing banshees the further you get delayed"

1) If you really can't spare that tiny bit of gas for spores, you probably are already behind...
2) After Queens inject, they don't do anything but sit on their asses. Don't know how queens that are attacking delay your build.
Host-
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand459 Posts
February 27 2012 01:43 GMT
#1099
On February 27 2012 03:08 crocodile wrote:
At any level below master league, you'll probably still do very very well with this build. I hate when people declare a build not viable because at the pro level it can be beaten easily.

Ey. What is slowly becoming the standard in ZvT is a very delayed gas, much like the ice fisher. Personally I get double gas at any point inbetween 28-44. In ZvP, various different 'icefisher-esque' builds are used for a really solid mid-game.
ThomasHobbes
Profile Joined October 2010
United States197 Posts
February 27 2012 05:19 GMT
#1100
People are ignoring the strength of no-gas expands in ZvZ.

14 Pool / 16 Hatch -> 3-4 Queens and 1-2 Spines will hold almost any Ling / Bling pressure if done right, and you are not behind against FEs.
"The life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
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