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On April 08 2012 09:06 KrakInDub wrote:
Just to get a clear opinion about this Build, isn't it already outdated for months?! I mean it doens't compete anymore with the current "meta game"?
I used to luv this defensive style of my Zerg play and i played this Build alot in like every matchup but nowadays i think it's quite "useless", especially on Masters/GM level.
Or is it still worth using it?
use the concept and the idea of it, not the build
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On April 08 2012 09:06 KrakInDub wrote:
Just to get a clear opinion about this Build, isn't it already outdated for months?! I mean it doens't compete anymore with the current "meta game"?
I used to luv this defensive style of my Zerg play and i played this Build alot in like every matchup but nowadays i think it's quite "useless", especially on Masters/GM level.
Or is it still worth using it?
Basically, the gist of this build is to delay gas, so all your mining is focused on minerals and more drones. No tech, all economy, which makes you very, very vulnerable to aggression.
It's viable if you know you aren't going to get attacked early, such as if Protoss FFE (zerg grabs quick 3rd and gasless power droning), or sometimes against Terran (Slayers Coca did something like the Ice Fisher against Puma successfully in the EG MCSL last week).
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NesTea just did it just a minute ago in the 3rd game against aLive (in the current IPL4) but more like into a roach/bling all in out of 2 Bases ^^
btw are there any replays SlayerSCoCa playing it against EGPuMa? Or other pro's playing this style? Would be really awesome to see them 
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I haven't seen a player do this build in a very very long time actually.
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No one has used the specific build in a long time, but I feel like this style is what ultimately led to the current ZvP trend of grabbing a third before gas at all. It's just the concept of using Queens/Spines to fend off early pressure/harass in order to get a ridiculous number of Drones out.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On April 09 2012 11:20 ZasZ. wrote:
No one has used the specific build in a long time, but I feel like this style is what ultimately led to the current ZvP trend of grabbing a third before gas at all. It's just the concept of using Queens/Spines to fend off early pressure/harass in order to get a ridiculous number of Drones out.
4queens from hatch first without gas til like 40 supply happens pretty often though, no gas til 40 supply with Z was pretty unheard of before this
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On April 09 2012 11:19 Micket wrote:
I haven't seen a player do this build in a very very long time actually.
Yeah not the already outdated Build like Spanishiwa or Destiny or whoever started it, but like Br3ezy already wrote "use the concept and the idea of it, not the build" means you can open your game however you want, but don't take any gas before ~40 supply or better the ~6min. mark (hope this timing is the right one^^).
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It's not so much outdated as it's still used on occasion but it was a primary stepping stone in the progression of the Zerg metagame. Sure, everyone Hatches first if they can, but people still Pool first for a reason. Beyond that, the super fast third is in vogue simply because it works like the Ice Fisher when it first came out, until the next evolution of the metagame. The 3-base 1 Gas is far more common than the delay for all gasses at once for the right reasons, it allows Roaches, Banes, Lair, and upgrades sooner and still allows crazy droning. It's the concept of basing and Queens/Spines/Lings with potential Spores to stop all aggression and out produce your enemy. Behold the Stephano build. It may pool at 12 vs Toss (which is mostly to fool them to open up the nat/get lings to kill the pylon for a 2nd base), but it's all Drone and little gas with Spanishiwa defense written all over it until Roaches take over the board.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On April 19 2012 13:06 Xylarthen wrote:
It's not so much outdated as it's still used on occasion but it was a primary stepping stone in the progression of the Zerg metagame. Sure, everyone Hatches first if they can, but people still Pool first for a reason. Beyond that, the super fast third is in vogue simply because it works like the Ice Fisher when it first came out, until the next evolution of the metagame. The 3-base 1 Gas is far more common than the delay for all gasses at once for the right reasons, it allows Roaches, Banes, Lair, and upgrades sooner and still allows crazy droning. It's the concept of basing and Queens/Spines/Lings with potential Spores to stop all aggression and out produce your enemy. Behold the Stephano build. It may pool at 12 vs Toss (which is mostly to fool them to open up the nat/get lings to kill the pylon for a 2nd base), but it's all Drone and little gas with Spanishiwa defense written all over it until Roaches take over the board.
The Ice Fisher build was never a "stepping stone" in the ZvP meta game. Not at all. NesTea and Losira first showcased the 3 hatch before gas against FFE, and it has nothing to do with the Ice Fisher build at all. It simply has to do with the lack of aggression a player can put on when going FFE. It is the same concept as going Hatch > Gas against a Protoss going Gateway expand, but since the Protoss adds in Forge > Nexus > Gateway, the Zerg responds with Pool (for cannons) > Hatch > Hatch > Gas.
It is actually extremely obvious (now) why this is the correct response, but it has nothing to do with the Ice Fisher build, and it definitely isn't a precursor to this idea. The Ice Fisher build uses Queens and Static Defense (only minerals) to defend early pressure, the Gasless 3 Hatch relies on map control for spot on timings of Gases and Tech to defend, not Queens or Static Defense to be safe from everything. And that's always been the staple idea in ZvP early game. Take gases and get your tech out just in time to defend from the closest Protoss timings, and macro in between those timings, until you have 3 bases.
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So wich variation seems to be stronger? The Ice Fisher style or the 3 Base before Gas one?
When do you take your 3rd playing Ice Fisher? Also at the second one, you take your gas when your 3rd is up, but when do you take the other gasses usually?
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On April 19 2012 14:16 KrakInDub wrote:
So wich variation seems to be stronger? The Ice Fisher style or the 3 Base before Gas one?
When do you take your 3rd playing Ice Fisher? Also at the second one, you take your gas when your 3rd is up, but when do you take the other gasses usually?
In ZvP you want the 3base before gas against a FFE - 3base before gas is better economically but MUCH harder to defend - especially early, which is why you can't do it against a regular gateway expand. In ZvT on some maps you can't grab a fast third, even if your opponent opens 1rax FE. (some maps you can though)
I'm a bigger fan now of getting a gas in ZvT at around 17 though, even against gasless FE, and then pulling at 100 gas, because the ling speed gives you the option to put aggression on the opponent or have a more defendable third, at the cost of some econ.
Typically you take your two gases at 6:20 or so, I've seen Stephano take his third at 7 min and a fourth at 8 min.
But it depends - he's much cleaner and crisper with his macro, at lower levels everything will be later so keep that in mind.
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With the ice fisher you take the third when you start making units, and you start making units after you have both the bases saturated. It can work against Terran or Protoss doing 1 gate expo, making it work against forge fe is trickier
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FFE is like a hard counter to the zvp ice fisher build...
Asolmanx. I don't think so. Ice fisher was useful for the metagame, it showed that queens were great defensive units, and the build was strong against what was popular at the time - T doing very popular hellion and banshee based 1 base all-ins, P doing 1 base all-ins or gateway expands (which even still can overwhelm 'ice fisher' with the right follow up), and 4 gating pre-patch.
Nowadays, you make 4 queens straight away, there is no way for you to win the game because you will be so far behind in econ, not to mention a late third due to lack of any map control. Some make 4 queens in ZvT on 2 base, but never straight away. It's usually a 3rd queen for hellions and creep, and a 4th queen much later on, either for defense due to what's scouted, or for the 3rd hatch/macro hatch made.
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On April 19 2012 13:40 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 13:06 Xylarthen wrote:
It's not so much outdated as it's still used on occasion but it was a primary stepping stone in the progression of the Zerg metagame. Sure, everyone Hatches first if they can, but people still Pool first for a reason. Beyond that, the super fast third is in vogue simply because it works like the Ice Fisher when it first came out, until the next evolution of the metagame. The 3-base 1 Gas is far more common than the delay for all gasses at once for the right reasons, it allows Roaches, Banes, Lair, and upgrades sooner and still allows crazy droning. It's the concept of basing and Queens/Spines/Lings with potential Spores to stop all aggression and out produce your enemy. Behold the Stephano build. It may pool at 12 vs Toss (which is mostly to fool them to open up the nat/get lings to kill the pylon for a 2nd base), but it's all Drone and little gas with Spanishiwa defense written all over it until Roaches take over the board. The Ice Fisher build was never a "stepping stone" in the ZvP meta game. Not at all. NesTea and Losira first showcased the 3 hatch before gas against FFE, and it has nothing to do with the Ice Fisher build at all. It simply has to do with the lack of aggression a player can put on when going FFE. It is the same concept as going Hatch > Gas against a Protoss going Gateway expand, but since the Protoss adds in Forge > Nexus > Gateway, the Zerg responds with Pool (for cannons) > Hatch > Hatch > Gas.It is actually extremely obvious (now) why this is the correct response, but it has nothing to do with the Ice Fisher build, and it definitely isn't a precursor to this idea. The Ice Fisher build uses Queens and Static Defense (only minerals) to defend early pressure, the Gasless 3 Hatch relies on map control for spot on timings of Gases and Tech to defend, not Queens or Static Defense to be safe from everything. And that's always been the staple idea in ZvP early game. Take gases and get your tech out just in time to defend from the closest Protoss timings, and macro in between those timings, until you have 3 bases.
He isn't saying the Ice Fisher opening was the precursor to the modern 3 hatch in ZvP. Simply that gasless openings weren't used before Spanishiwa gave us a style that was safe without gas for ling speed. The only reason queens and spines were necessary were because of that early aggression you used to see from gate expands. 3 hatch does the exact same thing as the Ice Fisher in the sense that you get by with the bare minimum until the last possible moment. Did Spanishiwa inspire Nestea or Losira to start 3 hatching? I don't think so either. However, saying that the styles are completely different is rather silly. Gasless 2 base into gasless 3 base is definitely a stepping stone. There's was simply no way to do that in ZvP with gateway expand styles.
If you want to see how these styles are related, look at ZvT. A lot of Zergs have been using the 4 queen gasless opening again (exact same concept of the Ice Fisher). However, with hellion expands, you can actually skip a queen, get a spine and 3rd base extremely quickly as well. It won't pop at 6 minutes like ZvP 3 hatch but it's pretty damn close. The only difference between the two is that queens are produced at different times to account for any early pressure. They're related more than you're giving credit for...it's always an adaptation from the previous metagame and this was common for a long time until FFE took over and we needed a new way to be even greedier than Protoss players. Economic greediness is the common thread.
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However, saying that the styles are completely different is rather silly. Gasless 2 base into gasless 3 base is definitely a stepping stone. There's was simply no way to do that in ZvP with gateway expand styles.
They are completely different... going 3 base as a response to FFE is totally different than ice fisher. People didn't ffe back then. Ice fisher is basically hard countered by FFE, and even against gateway expand it isn't good if player plays it right.
They aren't stepping stones at all... gasless 2 base mass queen was to defend popular all-ins of the time. Gasless 3 base is to maximize econ against FFE. Totally not similar, at all.
If you want to see how these styles are related, look at ZvT. A lot of Zergs have been using the 4 queen gasless opening again (exact same concept of the Ice Fisher). However, with hellion expands, you can actually skip a queen, get a spine and 3rd base extremely quickly as well. It won't pop at 6 minutes like ZvP 3 hatch but it's pretty damn close. The only difference between the two is that queens are produced at different times to account for any early pressure. They're related more than you're giving credit for...it's always an adaptation from the previous metagame and this was common for a long time until FFE took over and we needed a new way to be even greedier than Protoss players. Economic greediness is the common thread.
No they haven't. I don't think any zerg makes 4 queens consecutively. It's economic suicide. You just lose the game, you made too much. It's like making 4 spines against reactor hellion. You jsut give up so much map control and not gain enough econ that you end up so far behind.
People making a 3rd queen for creep (and some defense) rather than only for defense, and a 4th queen wayyyyy later or because of what is scouted, is a lot different than just making 4 queens right away.
There's also no way in hell you are going to get a third base against reactor hellion. They will fry the drone. They have map control. Unless they are dumb and run in and lose the hellions for not enough drones. That's the whole point of reactor hellion. Only way to get third, is with roaches, which hurts mutas, tech, drone count, and you can't get 4 queens exactly with it either.
Ice fisher build was just to show off the utility of queens for defense, a sort of proof of concept.
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Well, if getting 4 queens straight away is "bad" but making 4 queens for defense can be good if you don't rush for them, I would call that a refinement of the build, concept stays, and you still get to nearly the same point
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United States8477 Posts
4 quick queens is getting more and more common these days. Morrow has done it since forever.
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Well, if getting 4 queens straight away is "bad" but making 4 queens for defense can be good if you don't rush for them, I would call that a refinement of the build, concept stays, and you still get to nearly the same point
It's not the same build, and it's a reaction to possible banshee play or hellion play (if you make 4 queens early at all), not a set build order. With spanishiwa build, you are making only 4 queens just for defense and super late gas. With 'standard' play, you have to get gas 15-30 to get ling speed so you can scout and react to possible 1 base all-ins, and that 4th queen is made super, super late.... like, as in you are getting it so you can inject your macro hatch made in base or your third base, which is wayyyyy after any possible 1 base pressure would come.
Like... there's a huge difference between the 7 roach rush, and getting 7 roaches to defend 3 gate expo pressure when going fast third.
The reason for the 4th queen is totally different. Inject vs building up energy for transfuse.
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On April 09 2012 11:19 Micket wrote:
I haven't seen a player do this build in a very very long time actually.
have seen drg, losira and nestea using it on stream recently
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^ they aren't doing ice fisher though.. .they are just getting 4 queens eventually, and they take an early gas.
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EPT
