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I am just a gold zerg but given those who has not got the necessary good-enough micro, this build can harm you more than do good for you if the opponent knows what he is doing.
It seems more players are getting good respond to this no gas build.
I am going to post some common early pressure that I face huge problem with:
early mass marine before your gas can be super hard to deal with, spines will just get melted.
Slow lings almost always cannot get a surround.
Banelings require gas, by the time you scouted that amount of marines, if you follow this built strictly, you will not have time to get them (also, the morph will take time and without speed upgrade, they can get sniped/kited)
Fast mech rush coupled with marines and scvs (for repair)
With the super late gas, there is a huge timing window for Terran to go early mech.
I should mention that early 2 thors with marines are even harder to deal with than tank+marines.
If a terran does not apply early aggression, either it is a mass blueflame hellion, banshee or mech+marine push.
If you could not scout it, I honestly suggest you to get gas production and drop a roache warren.
For protoss, I haven't played much against any good micro'd 4 gate push, so I would comment much on that.
The problem I have seen is the early zealots+2 immortals push (skipping gateway tech for faster immortals).
With zealots protecting the immortals, the immortals can kill off spines and queen quite quickly. zealots also smash the lings in an extremely cost effective way.
Blink stalkers are also very very effective, I really do think only a really large number of speedlings or a number of roaches can deal with that.
I don't use this for zvz, so not going to comment on that.
tldr:
it could be really harmful for the new zerg players to skip gas, especially if the scouting was too late, only to find no gas to build the baneling nest/roache warren.
Unless you are confident that spines+slow lings+drones will be enough to hold off almost anything that is coming, get some gas
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On May 27 2011 03:36 KingHillBilly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 20:02 zozkA wrote:On May 26 2011 03:35 KingHillBilly wrote:
I liked my version of this strategy when I was doing it a year ago.
|:> May I refer you to MaestroSCs post in the "I liked that before it was cool!!!" thread. Thank you ^^ Ok, let me rephrase. I was streaming this strategy in march 2010. In fact, this is pretty much the only strategy I did with zerg, unless I was zergling all in. I read the first post of this strategy "please refer to this as blah blah blah strategy" and it made me laugh. I haven't seen anything new or creative for some time (not really the players fault of course). TL:DR - You didn't invent it (OP), stop saying you did. User was warned for this post
Did you beat TLO with the build? Did you become an internet sensation over night because of it? Maybe you were the 1st one to do the build, however you can't deny that Spanishiwa probably did it better and thats why hes there, and your here. You shouldn't be laughing at that at all.
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On May 29 2011 05:23 ETisME wrote:
I am just a gold zerg but given those who has not got the necessary good-enough micro, this build can harm you more than do good for you if the opponent knows what he is doing.
It seems more players are getting good respond to this no gas build.
I am going to post some common early pressure that I face huge problem with:
early mass marine before your gas can be super hard to deal with, spines will just get melted.
Slow lings almost always cannot get a surround.
Banelings require gas, by the time you scouted that amount of marines, if you follow this built strictly, you will not have time to get them (also, the morph will take time and without speed upgrade, they can get sniped/kited)
Fast mech rush coupled with marines and scvs (for repair)
With the super late gas, there is a huge timing window for Terran to go early mech.
I should mention that early 2 thors with marines are even harder to deal with than tank+marines.
If a terran does not apply early aggression, either it is a mass blueflame hellion, banshee or mech+marine push.
If you could not scout it, I honestly suggest you to get gas production and drop a roache warren.
For protoss, I haven't played much against any good micro'd 4 gate push, so I would comment much on that.
The problem I have seen is the early zealots+2 immortals push (skipping gateway tech for faster immortals).
With zealots protecting the immortals, the immortals can kill off spines and queen quite quickly. zealots also smash the lings in an extremely cost effective way.
Blink stalkers are also very very effective, I really do think only a really large number of speedlings or a number of roaches can deal with that.
I don't use this for zvz, so not going to comment on that.
tldr:
it could be really harmful for the new zerg players to skip gas, especially if the scouting was too late, only to find no gas to build the baneling nest/roache warren.
Unless you are confident that spines+slow lings+drones will be enough to hold off almost anything that is coming, get some gas
Is there any chance you could post replays of this? I, likewise, am in middle-ish gold league, playing platinum players, and I use this build for almost every matchup with zero problems, and would like to see what exactly is different between our games.
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On May 29 2011 05:23 ETisME wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I am just a gold zerg but given those who has not got the necessary good-enough micro, this build can harm you more than do good for you if the opponent knows what he is doing.
It seems more players are getting good respond to this no gas build.
I am going to post some common early pressure that I face huge problem with:
early mass marine before your gas can be super hard to deal with, spines will just get melted.
Slow lings almost always cannot get a surround.
Banelings require gas, by the time you scouted that amount of marines, if you follow this built strictly, you will not have time to get them (also, the morph will take time and without speed upgrade, they can get sniped/kited)
Fast mech rush coupled with marines and scvs (for repair)
With the super late gas, there is a huge timing window for Terran to go early mech.
I should mention that early 2 thors with marines are even harder to deal with than tank+marines.
If a terran does not apply early aggression, either it is a mass blueflame hellion, banshee or mech+marine push.
If you could not scout it, I honestly suggest you to get gas production and drop a roache warren.
For protoss, I haven't played much against any good micro'd 4 gate push, so I would comment much on that.
The problem I have seen is the early zealots+2 immortals push (skipping gateway tech for faster immortals).
With zealots protecting the immortals, the immortals can kill off spines and queen quite quickly. zealots also smash the lings in an extremely cost effective way.
Blink stalkers are also very very effective, I really do think only a really large number of speedlings or a number of roaches can deal with that.
I don't use this for zvz, so not going to comment on that.
tldr:
it could be really harmful for the new zerg players to skip gas, especially if the scouting was too late, only to find no gas to build the baneling nest/roache warren.
Unless you are confident that spines+slow lings+drones will be enough to hold off almost anything that is coming, get some gas
i posted on the bottom of the last page how i deal with 2 rax when trying to use a no gas expand opening. i get gas and banelings. maybe with better micro you can defend with slow lings but i cant. with banelings +spines+queen+drones\slow lings its not easy, but regularly doable.
i feel like a lot of the issues you describe come from not executing the build optimally. you should hit the 40 food mark around 6 min. and take your gases asap. if you arent then watch some of spanishiwa's replays and see how he does it.
another thing ive found from using this build almost exclusively for the last week (didnt play for the prior 2 months), is that if your opponent is doing an all in build that spines won't defend then break off the no gas idea and get some units! if he is doing some wierd all in then you are ahead by the simple fact that you have 2 bases. just make sure you don't die to his attack and you win.
edit: i feel about 10x safer with a flock of 5+ queens roaming my bases. if you dont feel safe make queens constantly with your natural hatch. once queens start building up energy they can take on banshees or void rays very effectively.
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Recently i struggle with this build because every single protoss goes forge first and puts cannons down in my natural. In some situations i can deal with it, but there are several maps where the probe can block itself in and get 1-2 cannons up and while i can sometimes defend it, there are often situations where i'm forced to cancel the hatch while he transitions into FFE.
What is the best way to deal with the situation of cannons completing if there is no easily accessible 3rd? (Basically all maps except shakuras, metalopolis/slag pits (non-close positions), typhoon peaks)
I've moved back to 14g/14p for now because all opponents (and all races) seem to open blindly with a strategy that is targetted at severely punishing an early hatch.
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Thank you so much Spanishiwa!
I use to lose to all sorts of ridiculous things as zerg but now I am winning EVERY single match.
The money from the FE kicks in at just the right time that I can hold off anything and if they expand themselves than I can just expand again and use the early creep spread to keep my bases connected and the map under my complete control.
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shit build it shit
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 31 2011 18:12 Morfildur wrote:
Recently i struggle with this build because every single protoss goes forge first and puts cannons down in my natural. In some situations i can deal with it, but there are several maps where the probe can block itself in and get 1-2 cannons up and while i can sometimes defend it, there are often situations where i'm forced to cancel the hatch while he transitions into FFE.
What is the best way to deal with the situation of cannons completing if there is no easily accessible 3rd? (Basically all maps except shakuras, metalopolis/slag pits (non-close positions), typhoon peaks)
I've moved back to 14g/14p for now because all opponents (and all races) seem to open blindly with a strategy that is targetted at severely punishing an early hatch.
1 queen with about 6 lings should be more than adequate to taken out 1 cannon, then you can just take your natural and 3rd if he fast expanded. Another way to deal with it is to just proxy hatch him with your scout and try to end the game there.
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I love this build for a lot of reasons but one of the main ones I enjoy it for is the fact that my APM is up about 20 apm just from playing this for the last two weeks or so. If you wanna get much better at early defense techniques with non-Sling units, this build definitely helps you work on that.
I've read only a few of the recent responses, but I'm reading a lot of "I'm Gold/Plat and having a lot of trouble with [insert early aggression]. Suggestions?"
I think there's a lot of good suggestions here. The biggest generalization I would make is, "Scout well, then vary the build/gas timing as necessary." One thing I'm looking forward to now that I have some experience with the build is to start playing with some early 2-geyser variations, which can either help on defense if needed, or can transition into some interesting tech-heavy harassment options (early burrow-speed-tunnelling Roaches, early Nydus, etc) with earlier timings.
But I also think it's important to point out that I believe this is a REALLY tough build for the Gold/Plat level players (I'm Plat, mid-to-high level). My suspicion is that in Bronze/Silver, where scouting is poor, it can be pulled off without much worry of early harass (other than cheese, which is an adjustment issue). In Dia/Master, I imagine micro capabilities are good enough to be able to hold many early pressures.
But at Gold/Plat I think you get this sweet-spot of good scouting but mediocre micro which makes early harass difficult to defend. It took me about seven to ten matches to get my first win with this build. I've had significant issues with pulling it off. Watch the Mr Bitters cast if you haven't...he loses something like five of his first six cause he wasn't playing it well. Now that I'm more practiced with it, I'm winning at a pretty steady rate.
TLDR: Don't be afraid to vary your opening, and recognize it's very difficult to get a handle on and expect most of your first few matches with this will result in losses.
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On June 03 2011 02:32 Sprite_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 18:12 Morfildur wrote:
Recently i struggle with this build because every single protoss goes forge first and puts cannons down in my natural. In some situations i can deal with it, but there are several maps where the probe can block itself in and get 1-2 cannons up and while i can sometimes defend it, there are often situations where i'm forced to cancel the hatch while he transitions into FFE.
What is the best way to deal with the situation of cannons completing if there is no easily accessible 3rd? (Basically all maps except shakuras, metalopolis/slag pits (non-close positions), typhoon peaks)
I've moved back to 14g/14p for now because all opponents (and all races) seem to open blindly with a strategy that is targetted at severely punishing an early hatch.
1 queen with about 6 lings should be more than adequate to taken out 1 cannon, then you can just take your natural and 3rd if he fast expanded. Another way to deal with it is to just proxy hatch him with your scout and try to end the game there.
Yes, I've had great success with going proxy hatch after having to cancel my natural. I don't know why this tactic is so frowned upon. It works best when the protoss spends too much on pylons/cannons at your natural, giving him a false sense that you are contained, when really you are making your entire army at your proxy hatch.
I am not sure what the best composition is for the proxy hatch, unit wise. I prefer to attack when I have around 5-7 roaches and only 8-12 lings. Gotta hit before he's got any significant defense at home.
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The build is very good. Gold players just need to spend the money and follow the rules.
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Little spending tips I've found for those that have trouble spending there money with this build (like me)
at 40-44 food you can afford 2 hatcheries and an extra queen.
when you place down all 4 gases and get your saturation back up to 16-18 drones per mineral patch on your original 2 bases you can afford 2 evo chambers, roach warren and a baneling nest as well as zergling speed and a lair.
When your lair is done you can afford roach speed, nydus cannal and an infestation pit as well as infestor energy, burrow, and an overseer.
If your scouting and game sense is adequate enough you can saturate your 3rd and 4th base as soon as they finish completion.
There are other lil spending timings such as drop upgrades and what not but I still need to work on the timings for those, I'm pretty sure there affordable though.
Edit: Oh yeah forgot to mention, those having trouble with a terran marine tank push, the timing the roach warren goes down is normally (what I find unless they go for a mega fast push) in time for you to get roaches out to defeat there push.
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How I beat 3tank, 2 hellion and few marine push (from one base) with spanishiwa? I just find it hard because he denied both my ovie sacs and I thought he was going banshee or other nuts. I added spines because he was on one base, but those are not very good against tanks.
Didn't know how to react so I wonder what is the right way play against this strat.
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This build is amazing on Taldarim Altar, haven't lost any of my ZvT and ZvZs on that map because of this.
The key to this build is constant scouting and overseer usage. I've lost to quite a few hellion drops because of poor scouting.
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On June 04 2011 23:51 Ryndika wrote:
How I beat 3tank, 2 hellion and few marine push (from one base) with spanishiwa? I just find it hard because he denied both my ovie sacs and I thought he was going banshee or other nuts. I added spines because he was on one base, but those are not very good against tanks.
Didn't know how to react so I wonder what is the right way play against this strat.
What time/food does it come at?
or better yet a replay?
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I'm about to start playing again and since this build is effective in all matchups I figured that I can start here, I am well aware that I need to have good mechanics with the queen management, creep spread, et cetera et cetera. However, I would like to know a few mistakes that beginner players who use this build encounter? Thanks for the build and the answer the my aforementioned question!
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On June 10 2011 04:21 ZaneZaneZane wrote:
I'm about to start playing again and since this build is effective in all matchups I figured that I can start here, I am well aware that I need to have good mechanics with the queen management, creep spread, et cetera et cetera. However, I would like to know a few mistakes that beginner players who use this build encounter? Thanks for the build and the answer the my aforementioned question!
Since DT is a popular response to scouting no gas past a certain point, a mistake often made is to misjudge cloaked unit timings and build their counters too late.
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Thank you Spanishiwa for posting that. Even though I don't play Zerg, I suddenly want to go try it out and die horribly.
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Hey Spanishiwa!
I am having trouble using this strategy against terrans executing a 1/1/1 build and immediately launch a drop in my main where I have no spine crawlers placed and I have to run my queens back to defend it but if the terran does more than one drop he has a sizable force that can kill my queens!
What can i do to prepare for this if I scout it?
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On June 04 2011 23:51 Ryndika wrote:
How I beat 3tank, 2 hellion and few marine push (from one base) with spanishiwa? I just find it hard because he denied both my ovie sacs and I thought he was going banshee or other nuts. I added spines because he was on one base, but those are not very good against tanks.
Didn't know how to react so I wonder what is the right way play against this strat.
I'm pretty sure you need to deviate from the normal build if you scout 1 base mech/biomech.
Did you really lose both overlords without being able to scout anything? And you constantly checked ramp to see what units he had? After scouting gas did you steal his other gas? Did you follow the build correctly? How many queens did you make? How many spine crawlers did you make? How many lings did you make?
Basically you need to provide a replay.
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EPT
