On May 26 2011 01:12 statikg wrote: How are you guys dealing with a 1base marine tank push? I am confused as to how to deal with this without speed/banelings
A marine/tank push shouldn't be hitting you that fast, maybe you're not getting to the gas/upgrade point fast enough. Other than that, remember that creepspread is one of the core ideas behind the build. IF he attacks with marines and tanks while you're still only on slow lings, you have to make sure he has no choice but to attack on creep. An early marine/tank push on creep against slow lings and queens should be fine if you have enough lings and queens.
On May 19 2011 20:56 Keilah wrote: So I just played vs a guy who took no gas early, Spanishiwa style.
My response was to make stalkers off 1 gate to be annoying since he can't have slings, then expand off that 1 gate since he can't have slings, take all 4 gas, start +1 weapons (chrono), drop a few cannons in case he attacks with roach/sling, tech to archives, build 8 gateways and a robo for obs, go kill him with 5-6 archons and some supporting zealot/stalker. He had a big sling army with 8 or so mutas, you can guess how it went.
Anyways, is this or similar a good way to beat this late gas style? I know know know for sure you won't be pressuring me fast so I can be greedy, but I don't need 3 bases or anything, just tech up and make a lot of gates. Like a 6 gate basically, but a little later and I think you need roaches to deal with it. Transfuse + spines stops working when I have access to HT for feedback -> archon, and obv you can't use mutas, lings, banes, or (maybe) many hydras.
Also I doubt it matters but the observer saw his army comp before I commited to building the archons. Had loads of banked gas tho so not like i was gonna change much, maybe get charge and storm vs hydras or build some late sentries for FF traps and/or lay down another robo for immortals vs roach.
Like the poster above, people seriously underestimate the amount of pressure that Z can apply, notwithstanding the opening of NoGas FE. In fact, that's likely one of the reasons that this opening continues to be so successful. People don't understand it, and they react poorly. Expanding behind, then sitting back until 11m thinking the Zerg will apply no pressure is a bad response.
WIth this opening, the extra hatch and workers pay for themselves at about 8:00-8:30. That means that any attack that happens after that is as strong or stronger than it would've been off of one base. Consider that two drones on each mineral patch is a key turning point for this opening. Up to this point, every Drone you've built has been for full value; the third on each patch harvests half as fast. Spanishiwa mentioned in the OP that this level of saturation was a key target for this opening. The Zerg is incredibly flexible at this point. He can be as aggressive or eco focused as he wants to be.
In my viewing of his VODs, Spanishiwa seems to always attack before 10m. He just somehow manages to seem eco-focused as he attacks, because he's that good. Other players might be more overtly aggressive. Consider that 30 drones on mins and 12 on gas is about enough to fund continuous Roaches out of 2 Hatch 2 Queens. You can even tech some if you throw in some speedlings and/or fully saturate. At any rate, this is a lot of pressure for a cannon/sentry only protoss to handle at the 9m mark. Protoss I play against often complain of "Roach spam" at this window. You need excellent forcefield use and proper defensive positioning to be able to deal with it. Meanwhile, a lot of players aren't even walling their natural because they saw a 13 hatch and assumed they wouldn't see combat until 200 supply.
(That's not even throwing in the potential a Z has to cancel the early Hatch and go 1base Roach into a FE'ing P. Husky has mentioned that he's never seen that NOT work. He's probably seen a lot of games where he could have.)
As a correlary, whoever goes blind Muta is a bad player, as is any player who goes blind at all after executing this opening. Spanishiwa himself seems to eschew Mutas, and I only see them from him consistently when he's on a large map versus a terran making drops. It's just too hard to full value out of them otherwise. You make 6, dropping 600/600, and if you get even 300 mins worth of worker kills out of them, you consider it your lucky day. They can be priceless when it comes to map control, but they quite often are not what you need. Yes, scouting is super-important for this opening, as Spanishiwa said. Good scouting + good decisions + good opening means that you can respond to anything and come out on top, whether it's Blink Stalkers, Archons or whatever.
On May 17 2011 15:17 nd7020 wrote: I've been doing really great with this build, so thanks. But today I've lost 3 times v terran who immediately go into mass banshee or, oddly enough, mass reaper. With late gas, I haven't had the speedling upgrade necessary to stop reapers nor, more importantly, the detect to counter a guy who rushes cloaking for banshees (otherwise, queens would be more than enough.) Anyone have suggestions on how to read this builds or counter them?
Apologies for the really late reply, but I've had some troubles with this as well and thought I'd share what has worked for me in this case.
Hopefully this will help someone else who is also struggling with early Cloaked Banshees.
When I'm drone scouting his base (I scout at 13), I always, always gas steal if I can. This often delays cloak long enough if he was going for it (sometimes a minute or more if he doesn't pull SCV's or doesn't put more than 2 Marines onto killing the extractor). Usually I can get my Lair and an Overseer up before the cloaked Banshees hit in this case.
If I can't steal, I continue the build pretty much normally, but if I can't get a good overlord scout in to see what's up I'll blindly put down an Evo chamber at around 6:00 to 6:30 and then 4 spores (2 each in each mineral line). The spores and Queens usually hold off the Banshees nicely. Once I finally get my 4 gases I'll get Lair before speed in this case too just to be extra safe. Beware though this can be problematic if he shows up at your base with heavy bio and all you've got is slowlings. Good creep spread can really help here.
So far Cloaked Banshees have been the hardest thing for me to deal with when using this build and I'm sure I'm overreacting a bit when I do this. It is a bit of a waste to drop that many minerals if he doesn't go Cloaked or if he scouts it and cancels his build, but I prefer to lose minerals right up front than to lose half my drones and face a frantic scramble to get Lair and Overseers up after they've hit.
Anyways, hope this helps!
-Edit: Didn't see the part about Reapers. 2 or 3 spines protecting my main helps (in addition to the 3-6 protecting my natural). Also you may need to deviate the build at this point and start getting slowlings out in numbers if he is rolling heavy on Reapers. Get Speed as quick as you can against Reapers and make as many lings as you need to hold it off. But always try to stick to the concept of the build and get to 32 mineral drones and 12 gas drones as quick as possible (if you are still on 2 bases that is) even when you have to deviate.
- tldr; Gas steal if possible with your scouting drone, and build an evo chamber and 4 Spores if you can't pull off the steal. Losing lots of minerals while doing this hurts but not as bad as being unprepared for Cloak. Against Reapers, build a few Spines in your main and as many slowlings as you need and get speed as quick as you can.
one thing i have found using spanishiwas build as much as i like it esp in zvp in zvz it defintly has some great ideas too but i dont like it as much in zvt. But my main problem with it, it feels hyper vunerable to bluff's as in if you see a fairly decent attack comming in bluffing you into making spines when you are just getting gas this is esp vs protoss when you need slings roachs to deal with the army effectivly but it feels like you have no map control for quite sometime vs very active protoss players. spanishiwas build is amazing defensive build but it feels awkward because you loose alot of map control i have found but then again maybe just havent seen a good replay vs a buff style protoss
On May 27 2011 00:31 redbrain wrote: one thing i have found using spanishiwas build as much as i like it esp in zvp in zvz it defintly has some great ideas too but i dont like it as much in zvt. But my main problem with it, it feels hyper vunerable to bluff's as in if you see a fairly decent attack comming in bluffing you into making spines when you are just getting gas this is esp vs protoss when you need slings roachs to deal with the army effectivly but it feels like you have no map control for quite sometime vs very active protoss players. spanishiwas build is amazing defensive build but it feels awkward because you loose alot of map control i have found but then again maybe just havent seen a good replay vs a buff style protoss
You lose map control, but it doesn't matter. The build is defensive, and just like a turtling terran, you can give up map control since you're safe anyway.
On May 27 2011 00:31 redbrain wrote: one thing i have found using spanishiwas build as much as i like it esp in zvp in zvz it defintly has some great ideas too but i dont like it as much in zvt. But my main problem with it, it feels hyper vunerable to bluff's as in if you see a fairly decent attack comming in bluffing you into making spines when you are just getting gas this is esp vs protoss when you need slings roachs to deal with the army effectivly but it feels like you have no map control for quite sometime vs very active protoss players. spanishiwas build is amazing defensive build but it feels awkward because you loose alot of map control i have found but then again maybe just havent seen a good replay vs a buff style protoss
Hi Redbrain,
I have to admit I knew about the build for a while and didn't try it for a long time myself. It sounded too gimicky and left alot to chance. But a couple of weeks ago, I felt like I sort of hit a wall in Z vs Z and gave the build a shot and haven't looked back since.
It's really helped me improve parts of my game and it's now my go to build against Zerg and Toss.
I'm pretty sure it's been linked before, but here's a pretty decent cast of Spanishiwa holding off an aggressive 4 gate:
On May 17 2011 15:17 nd7020 wrote: I've been doing really great with this build, so thanks. But today I've lost 3 times v terran who immediately go into mass banshee or, oddly enough, mass reaper. With late gas, I haven't had the speedling upgrade necessary to stop reapers nor, more importantly, the detect to counter a guy who rushes cloaking for banshees (otherwise, queens would be more than enough.) Anyone have suggestions on how to read this builds or counter them?
So far Cloaked Banshees have been the hardest thing for me to deal with when using this build and I'm sure I'm overreacting a bit when I do this. It is a bit of a waste to drop that many minerals if he doesn't go Cloaked or if he scouts it and cancels his build, but I prefer to lose minerals right up front than to lose half my drones and face a frantic scramble to get Lair and Overseers up after they've hit.
Anyways, hope this helps!
In his Day9 Friendday Wednesday, Spanishiwa recommends running the cloaked Banshees out of energy, then getting lair before speed and morphing an Overseer. I have to say, I agree that this is about all you need.
Drones are a touch faster than Banshees, so running them around is productive. If after you've morphed an Overseer all you've lost is mining time and a few drones, you're still ahead of a Terran who spends all that money on 2 port, 2 Banshee and Cloak, and who probably delayed his expansion to get it that quickly. Cloaked Banshee drains more APM than it drains resources, so your real worst enemy is dealing with it poorly. Don't panic or get scared into passiveness.
With his early Port or two, he's actually given you a nice window. To transition, he'll either expand behind or make a hodgepodge 1 base Marine/Tank/Banshee push that's significantly delayed. By expanding after all that tech, he'll have virtually no army to stop a Roach push at 9 or 10m, and the game is yours provided you've dealt with most of the Banshees and have Burrow to mitigate damage from the air a bit. And if he's wise to that and just tries to push you instead, you've got a world of ways to defend. Mutas are a good choice against an army that's probably going to be without stim, and you've got enough time for them. Otherwise, just do whatever you normally do against midgame Terran pushes. Just scout his expo timing and respond accordingly.
On May 26 2011 03:35 KingHillBilly wrote: I liked my version of this strategy when I was doing it a year ago.
|:>
May I refer you to MaestroSCs post in the "I liked that before it was cool!!!" thread.
Thank you ^^
Ok, let me rephrase.
I was streaming this strategy in march 2010. In fact, this is pretty much the only strategy I did with zerg, unless I was zergling all in.
I read the first post of this strategy "please refer to this as blah blah blah strategy" and it made me laugh.
I haven't seen anything new or creative for some time (not really the players fault of course).
TL:DR - You didn't invent it (OP), stop saying you did.
I might have missed it, but did you post it somewhere?
If not, it would be nice if you could add your variation of the late-gas style to the discussion so you actually contribute something. I'm especially interested in your midgame strategies and game plan.
Spanishiswa certainly has earned the communities respect with this build.. it quickly has become the norm, or at least the desired. I'm still hesitant every time I act out a mineral only build, I just feel so naked.
In his Day9 Friendday Wednesday, Spanishiwa recommends running the cloaked Banshees out of energy, then getting lair before speed and morphing an Overseer. I have to say, I agree that this is about all you need.
Hi Justice,
Thanks for the reply. I definitely agree with everything you've said. I've done this myself (with somewhat mixed results). My problem is my APM isn't exactly breaking the bank so my ability to do the multitasking required to come out of this is a bit iffy sometimes.
I am getting faster and more comfortable at performing this build and holding off the rush this way is something I'm definitely trying to work on, though. I'm even starting to hope seeing Banshees because if I'm active with my Lings at his natural, with his reduced ability to field ground troops hopefully he won't be able to comfortably expand for a bit which lets me get even further ahead once I've held of the Banshees.
This terran I played against tried the new terran cheese of 3 rax with ~15 marines and ~15 scvs allin at about the 6 min mark or so... Any thoughts on how to hold it off? I had 2 queens, 2 spines at both bases, and pulled drones to target the rines, all the while making as many lings as possible. I'll upload a rep soon, though I honestly was at a loss as to what I should have done. We were cross spawns on Backwater Gulch, and all I could scout was a rax and depot at the bottom of his ramp with one rine to pick off my scout. Perhaps I needed to replace my forward scout immediately, but in any case, it was rough.
On May 28 2011 12:36 DuncanIdaho wrote: This terran I played against tried the new terran cheese of 3 rax with ~15 marines and ~15 scvs allin at about the 6 min mark or so... Any thoughts on how to hold it off? I had 2 queens, 2 spines at both bases, and pulled drones to target the rines, all the while making as many lings as possible. I'll upload a rep soon, though I honestly was at a loss as to what I should have done. We were cross spawns on Backwater Gulch, and all I could scout was a rax and depot at the bottom of his ramp with one rine to pick off my scout. Perhaps I needed to replace my forward scout immediately, but in any case, it was rough.
terrans can do a few pushes that i think you need gas for.
if i see 2 rax, or no gas thats a pretty good sign they are going to try some early shenanigans.
my response is:
gas asap baneling nest at 50 gas. you can stop mining gas when you get to 150 or so for 6 banelings.
those banelings + a few lings or drones + queen + spines will for sure be enough to stop any marine scv all ins. for creep spread i like to put down a tumor with the queen from my main with the first 25 energy, and inject with the first 25 energy from the queen at my nat.
once you have those banelings + spines you can drone hard to saturation.
if you dont see the marines\scv going down his ramp then you lose. you must scout when he moves out so that you can make lings or morph banelings.
also if you get supply blocked you lose, so dont do that.
just a general rule about all ins that i have found to be true:
the first time you see it you will lose. the second time you face it, you will probably lose. the third time you will crush it.
On May 28 2011 12:36 DuncanIdaho wrote: This terran I played against tried the new terran cheese of 3 rax with ~15 marines and ~15 scvs allin at about the 6 min mark or so... Any thoughts on how to hold it off? I had 2 queens, 2 spines at both bases, and pulled drones to target the rines, all the while making as many lings as possible. I'll upload a rep soon, though I honestly was at a loss as to what I should have done. We were cross spawns on Backwater Gulch, and all I could scout was a rax and depot at the bottom of his ramp with one rine to pick off my scout. Perhaps I needed to replace my forward scout immediately, but in any case, it was rough.
terrans can do a few pushes that i think you need gas for.
if i see 2 rax, or no gas thats a pretty good sign they are going to try some early shenanigans.
my response is:
gas asap baneling nest at 50 gas. you can stop mining gas when you get to 150 or so for 6 banelings.
those banelings + a few lings or drones + queen + spines will for sure be enough to stop any marine scv all ins. for creep spread i like to put down a tumor with the queen from my main with the first 25 energy, and inject with the first 25 energy from the queen at my nat.
once you have those banelings + spines you can drone hard to saturation.
if you dont see the marines\scv going down his ramp then you lose. you must scout when he moves out so that you can make lings or morph banelings.
also if you get supply blocked you lose, so dont do that.
just a general rule about all ins that i have found to be true:
the first time you see it you will lose. the second time you face it, you will probably lose. the third time you will crush it.
This is true. There are some situations where you have to adapt and need an earlier gas. This opening holds against a lot of strategies, however it does not hold every strategy without the player having to adapt.
Marine/SCV all-ins are one of those strategies which you have to scout for and get banelings ASAP, no matter what you would prefer. A big sign for those marine-heavy strategies that might become an all-in is missing gas or low-ground wall.
EPT
