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Nightbiscuit
Sweden179 Posts
On May 16 2011 16:00 MusiK wrote: I hope more zergs try coming up with new builds to improve gameplay like this man has done... =] I have a huge one, but the Zerg pros (at least those of whom I like) seem to be impossible to get in touch with (I feel like it would be taken more seriously if a pro did it first). | ||
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Zeon0
Austria2995 Posts
what to do, if protoss walls your ramp with 2pylons and 1 cannon? | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On May 17 2011 05:03 Zeon0 wrote: maybe the answer is somewhere in the 49 pages, but i dont have the time to read them all: what to do, if protoss walls your ramp with 2pylons and 1 cannon? you can't build the cannons until the pylons are completed, so there would be a gap unless he blocks the ramp with 3 pylons. You should be drone scouting in time to see the forge. If you see forge-first, put a drone on patrol at the bottom of your ramp, if the probe starts attacking the drone, pull a 2nd drone. If the protoss tries to put down pylons anyway, pull 3-4 drones and make sure he doesn't seal the ramp at all costs. | ||
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B34ST
United Kingdom150 Posts
On May 17 2011 02:40 Nightbiscuit wrote: I have a huge one, but the Zerg pros (at least those of whom I like) seem to be impossible to get in touch with (I feel like it would be taken more seriously if a pro did it first). Should do a little write up with some replays and see what people think, sure some, probably most, will say no but it only takes that one person to make it legit. | ||
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nd7020
United States6 Posts
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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
You should be able to scout 2port banshee by suiciding an overlord and checking the number of marines/tech buildings. The correct answer is mass queens +2-3 spores and a Quick lair with a few hydras (until he goes out of air tech). | ||
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nd7020
United States6 Posts
On May 17 2011 15:30 Kraelog wrote: Mass reaper=> Roach. The problem is that it is incredibly hard to scout/predict this strategy, since almost nobody does it anymore. Spines are also not bad, but after a critical point they just get one shotted by the reapers. You should be able to scout 2port banshee by suiciding an overlord and checking the number of marines/tech buildings. The correct answer is mass queens +2-3 spores and a Quick lair with a few hydras (until he goes out of air tech). Cool, thanks; your answer is useful but in one sense what I expected in that that it still relies on getting some very difficult scouting information, but so is the fate of zerg. If I keep seeing these builds I may get one of my gases at about 30 drones (rather than all 4 around 40 drones) in order to have lair tech/roach available a bit faster. Like you said, spines don't cut it if there is any real number of reapers. Of course the advantage to facing these builds is that if you fight them off, you should be ahead in terms of moving into mid-game. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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miknl2
4 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
So your saying burrow roaches to deal with tanks? Won't that be a lot of tech? Are you saying forego infestors if I see double factory? What exactly are you saying? | ||
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cbmarvo
United States4 Posts
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miknl2
4 Posts
Yeah, don't take my word for a pro. I'm low plat. Lawl. If you use the IT to thin the ranks of the infantry ball, you should be able to take down the tanks quite easily with roaches (even without burrow), but burrow will let you pop within minimum range of tanks. Muta baneling maybe? Definitely get armor upgrades so tanks don't 1-shot your banes. baneling drop should also take care of a lot of marines I think. When you put up the 4 gases, you will have a lot of gas. The tech shouldn't be a problem once you get the lair up. You just won't have as many infestors. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
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JusticeUS
36 Posts
On May 18 2011 00:57 Belial88 wrote: ^ I don't think IT is how to deal with siege tanks, it just helps get some potshots off but I don't think it's considered any way to win games. So your saying burrow roaches to deal with tanks? Won't that be a lot of tech? Are you saying forego infestors if I see double factory? What exactly are you saying? At this stage of the game, T is going to have 5-6 tanks max near your base, and only a few Marines. You just have to remember that Siege Tanks have an incredibly low rate of fire (3s), which means that if you can get them to waste that first shot, you're probably good. One way to do that is Infested Terran. Group up your Roaches at a certain distance from his seige line, then give them the A-move command. While they're still headed in, select your burrowed Infestor and get an IT next to each tank that you see. You should've timed it just so your Roaches cross the Tank's sight range as your IT's are going off. With about 8 or so Roaches moving in on creep at attack speed of 2s, you should get that first Tank down before it gets another shot at attack speed at 3s. Even better if you have 11-12 Roaches, since you're one shotting tanks with a good surround. You can also do this with a Zergling or two if you have +1 carapace. Get the Zerglings each a few spaces in front of your Roaches and spread apart, then select it all in the same group along with your Roaches and send it all in. The AI will keep it all moving at the same speed and distance. The Zerglings will absorb the first 2 shots each with no splash, provided you spread them apart correctly, then your Roaches will kill the first tank before it gets another shot. It takes 3 tank shots to kill a Roach tho, so really only do this if you're facing 5 or fewer tanks. The other way is to Burrow/Tunneling Claws when he has no detection. Implementation there is pretty straightforward. Obviously when you're facing some kind of Tank push it will be at different timings and you will be at different levels of tech. Just keep these three in mind until you have Hive and can better deal with Tanks. Zergling spread trick doesn't require a lot of tech, mainly only Roach speed. Try IT if you have Infestors and Burrow, and Tunneling Claws is the best. But you should have some mix of these techs at this kind of timing against T. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I guess the idea is to make roaches if I see a mech push coming? Why not just go roach/infestor in ZvT or Spanishiwa ZvT then? Why not just open roaches if that's the case. So if I scout a 1 base all-in or something asshat move like that with mass siege on 1 base, some kind of siege tank timing push like that, I'll throw roach warren down. | ||
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crazerk
3 Posts
Yes, going roach/infestor is a good build against a Terran mech army, but I find the reason why we (us zergs  ) shouldn't just open roach blind is because of some sort of marauder/marine push that Terran can do.For me when I scout some sort of mech play (multiple factories ) I'll try to get my Infestors out asap, with both upgrades. I would say NeuralPara + Roaches is the only way to beat some sort of heavy Thor army (just pure roaches is not enough) For your original post asking about tanks, I suppose it's together with marines? What other support units do the tanks have? If it's marine /tank, sling/bling/infestor works wonders (when you get NP even better). If it's any kind of mech heavy army, roaches will have to suffice till you get out infestors. He won't be able to push you so early anyway as it's more gas intensive. | ||
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Nineteen_
United States34 Posts
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
The Spanishiwa-style was featured in DRG vs MKP. In the LR thread, I think someone even mentioned that the Korean stream said that it was "spanishiwa" as well. DRG played an extreme version of it, I think he only got gas at 60 food or around there | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On May 18 2011 12:16 Belial88 wrote: ^ I appreciate the 2 posts above the above post but I'm talking about WAY before hive is out (as in infestators are just coming out) and bling/muta is just... going to be wrong. I guess the idea is to make roaches if I see a mech push coming? Why not just go roach/infestor in ZvT or Spanishiwa ZvT then? Why not just open roaches if that's the case. So if I scout a 1 base all-in or something asshat move like that with mass siege on 1 base, some kind of siege tank timing push like that, I'll throw roach warren down. It's quite simple: 1. Scout it before the tanks are sieged next to your natural. For example leave a ling in front of his base, have control of the xel'naga towers, etc. 2. Start to build lots of lings about a minute before you expect him to move out (requires some experience and scouting). 3. Attack while his tanks are still on the way to you and are not sieged (Bonus points for attack from multiple angles). You'd be suprised how effective lings actually are, they rip the early marine-tank armies apart in seconds unless you let them siege, and once you are close, it's too late for them to siege. The key, as with everything in spanishiwas build order, is scouting, prediction and adaption. | ||
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JusticeUS
36 Posts
^ I appreciate the 2 posts above the above post but I'm talking about WAY before hive is out (as in infestators are just coming out) and bling/muta is just... going to be wrong.[\QUOTE] Yeah, I second the above. Scouting is the key to pulling off any early defense with Lings. At this kind of timing, you're really only going to be facing 1 rax worth of Marines max, no Marauder, and about 4 tanks max w/ seige. Otherwise, he's just getting more resources out of the game somehow, which means you have problems with macro. On equal footing tho, the amount of lings you can make at this timing can easily wipe out this kind of force if you catch him unseiged. Ofc, catching him unseiged is going to be better than any of the alternatives I listed above. But when he's rushed so quickly to tanks, the low Marine count he's going to have is really exploitable. Tanks are not that good without decent support, a lot of players just need to remember that their attack speed is 3s. They actually do less single target DPS in seige mode than in normal mode. Lings should have no problems against 8x or so Marines and 4 Tanks. A 2 rax opener into tank push is different. I just tend to go Roach when I see a 2 rax before Orbital opener because Roaches are so good against unupgraded Marines. When I see a seige timing after 2 rax, it's quite a bit later, and the Marine ball is big enough that it can hold against Lings. Flanking w/ Lings on unseiged tanks is still quite good, ofc, otherwise you'll need good micro to break the seige. Some sort of trick to bait out the first few shots from the tanks, then either Roaches quickly to the tanks, or even better, Bling the Marines and clean up with Roaches. But as mentioned, your tech level at this point should give you quite a few options, provided you're keeping up with him. | ||
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