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Hi all,
just a very very big thanks Sir Spanishiwa.
Since i use your strategy with my touch, i win 90% of my ZvP 
i try to use 13 hatch and 14/15 pool versus terrans, but i dont have good timing for defending hellion drop, ... game to terran go directly on main with drop, spine crawler are useless, and queens not the most counter  hellion are too fast, i don't have roach beacause no gaz.
Can you give us some replay for 13hatch/14/15 pool? and fast hellions drop/marines/thor drop/
Thx again Sir.
sorry for my poor english, I hope it is understandable
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On May 06 2011 04:48 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 04:45 Yagulare wrote:
doesnt the shortened build time buff 2 gate agression?
nope, they revealed the zealot build time buff. only stalkers are built faster. also wg research time was reduced from 180 to 160 in PTR. currently: 140
actually they took away the shortened build time for stalkers and zealots, only sentry's build faster
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I'm having a lot of fun with this style of play, despite the flaws it may have.
I find that trying to emulate it, at my level (plat), helps me having a general plan for my matchups, which helps tremendously. My apm is constantly over 130 (sc2gears average weighted apm) now (it used to be much lower when I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do all game long), and I find that when I lose, I can analyze and identify more clearly what was wrong in my decision making or macro.
It could have been this way with another strat, obviously, but still this one was fun enough (and got well with the style I wanted to play, defensive early with a huge mid game swarm) that I stuck with it long enough. I now feel that I have a pretty good grasp of the timings it creates, defensively and offensively, which makes me feel so at ease when playing, winning or losing. I can vary the opening or transitions based on scouting (even if this doesn't result in optimal macro compared to other builds), without feeling at a loss. It seems that I'm always in control. At my low level right now, I feel that's what I needed to move forward.
TLDR : Thank you Spanishiwa !
That being said, I'm struggling to get it to work in ZvZ. I feel very vulnerable to one base speedlings. Early pool is kind of alright because I can cancel hatch and react accordingly with alright scouting, but the regular 14/14 speedlings put me in a world of hurt. I can defend my main with queens blocking the ramp, but my expo doesn't seem to hold, even with spines.
My first goal in ZvZ is to get 2 saturated base, then play according to the scouting infos. If I can dictate where the game is going, I'll usually try to press off 2 base while teching to hive and getting a 3rd. My ideal end game comp consists of ultras/roaches/infestor with queens transfusing the ultras. The problem is, of course, getting there.
Would you recommend doing 11p and then 18h only if it doesn't seem like a mass lings is coming out, and going gaz otherwise ? Or insist with 13h/15p and find a way to defend it ?
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What happens if you get hatch blocked with this build?
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If it's building-block you want to put down a spawning pool immediately.
If it's just a worker you want to pull another drone to attack. In higher leagues they often block with a building, at least toss does with a pylon 
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On May 07 2011 02:02 TobiWan wrote:If it's building-block you want to put down a spawning pool immediately. If it's just a worker you want to pull another drone to attack. In higher leagues they often block with a building, at least toss does with a pylon
Respectfully, no. I believe the first choice in case of a blocked hatch is to consider expanding to your third. Spanishiwa explains this in his Day[9] appearance and actually does expand to his 3 first on metal in response to a hatch block.
EDIT: to clarify, this doesn't mean "always expand to your third if hatch blocked." But if you really want to use the build you can consider it. Relevant considerations are the ability to connect the bases with creep, defend them both vs early pressure etc. I guess I would agree that especially for lower level players the right response might in some circumstances be to abandon the build and go 14/14. He may cover this in the guide actually.
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Watching all these replays has given me new passion about my initial decision to play Zerg. I just hate the passive "old-school" style of speedling -> defend, muta -> defend against drops and Banshees, defend, defend, defend. A bit of me died each time I saw a famous Zerg player waste away, throw 8 ultras at the 15m mark against a mech/gateway ball, retech to BroodLords, fail, then gg.
Interesting to me however is that so much focus is on the inital decision to go "gasless". From watching Spanisiwa's replays (and whatever I could find of FruitDealer's), I've learned the following about playing zerg, none of it really having to do with the opening:
1) Static defenses and Queens can be a better answer to early pushes than mobile units
2) Queens and crawlers can make better defense against air than Mutas
3) Take a limitless amount of bases when you're not pressured
4) Mid-game eco harass from Zerg is every bit as strong as Terran's, and arguably harder to defend against.
I'm wondering if it's just me, but is every zerg now using things like Nydus, Baneling Drops, Double Fungal v. workers and Tunneling Claws? What I've seen is mainly just what I'd call "old-school", some because it's just old content, but other times maybe because of the player.
What do you guys think? Is there more to Spanishiwa's style than just these opening guidelines? If so, why aren't more players and builds doing the same sort of harass tactics?
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The only player i have seen use Nydus effectively is Argos.
Nearly everyone uses burrow roaches and baneling drops these days against toss.
If you know how to keep infestors alive then use them they are great, but i hate seeing them run to their death.
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On May 07 2011 20:58 Venomous Drone wrote:
Nearly everyone uses burrow roaches and baneling drops these days against toss.
Just would like to point out that burrowed roaches are also great against Terran as they always have some detection (scan) but almost never have steady mobile detection (raven). Terran armies are also extremely reliant on range and the "ball" which gives them low surface area so anything that closes the distance or separates their units is good.
A last point is that even with a scan and tanks, there are times when upgraded roaches can just burrow under the bio ball and do great damage (the regen and armor do wonders for roach survival while the tanks destroy the marines for you).
Roaches against Terran also tend to push a lot of marauders and tanks as well as allowing the Zerg to bank gas which makes for a perfect muta transition.
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Build has gotten me to High plat, but once I hit those diamond players for ZvZ.. I tend to lose to any 1 base speedling into expansion.
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On May 10 2011 01:19 Foxx1 wrote:
Build has gotten me to High plat, but once I hit those diamond players for ZvZ.. I tend to lose to any 1 base speedling into expansion.
are you blocking your ramp with queens? replay plz
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Looks like zenio used the spanishiwa opening in the GSL last night against + Show Spoiler +Jinro, with good success too.
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Great strategy, sir! This helps a lot against early Terran harassment, particularly Banshees and Hellions. Preventing them from doing that early damage, you can easily win.
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On May 10 2011 03:26 JoeCrow wrote:Looks like zenio used the spanishiwa opening in the GSL last night against + Show Spoiler +Jinro, with good success too. Glad to see this style being used at a high level.
+ Show Spoiler [Set1] +
While Zenios strategy in that game might have been inspired by Spanishiwa, his Mutalisk transition was a bad choice, it delayed his Tech a lot. +1 Armor at 15 Minutes into the game is far too late. Zenios harass was also very weak, a few ling runbys, late drop tech and otherwise just the classical muta harass. While Zenios mechanics are definatly above Spanishiwas, the basic midgame strategy of Spanishiwa ist far stronger with the heavy, multipronged harass. It was definatly not Spanishiwa Style, at most Spanishiwa-inspired Style.
+ Show Spoiler [Set2] +
Not worth mentioning in this discussion.
+ Show Spoiler [Set3] +
Pool first build, so not relevant the discussion either.
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On May 10 2011 03:26 JoeCrow wrote:Looks like zenio used the spanishiwa opening in the GSL last night against + Show Spoiler +Jinro, with good success too. Glad to see this style being used at a high level.
I was just going to post about this as well. He got So Many Drones (tm) so fast it was scary. Really nutty how fast he was able to pick up his 3rd and 4th.
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Very interesting ROOT/Vile clanwar last night--I'd recommend the VODs to people who follow this thread. S-wa lost a series to drewbie 4-1. He spawned close positions 3 times on Metal and Shattered. Those games weren't even close--he lost badly to early 2rax pressure followed by a strong tank marine push. This highlights the fact that slowlings don't deal with marines beyond a certain number and tanks out-range spines.
I'd come to this conclusion myself already and have started taking gas immediately in response to scouting 2 rax (in close positions or a small map) and teching to speed, blings, lair, b-speed in that order. I'm wondering what other people think and if anyone else watched the clanwar and has an opinion about whether the result indicates a problem with the build, or just the fact that drewbie is an outstanding player (which he is). Of course, I understand that close positions on these maps versus terran is hard for zerg to start out with, but it seemed especially unmanageable for this build.
There's a thread about the clanwar on the tourneys page with links to VODs I think.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220986
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^ Close-position is imba is about all that was proved there.
no-gas or not, Zerg is at a terrible deficit for simply having the wrong spawn locations. This is why close-pos is banned from all respectable tournaments.
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on short 2player maps a pylon block is possible against a 13hatch
however, how about trying a no overlord double extractor trick 12hatch. build 10 drones, then double ET to 12 drones. then drop 12hatch before the overlord
that hatchery should be so fast theres no way toss can pylon block it and the faster hatchery could in theory give faster larva for maybe more drones early game?
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I just watched the game where you played vs tazza on xel'naga and I wonder if you should really even have that as one of the replays because you played REALLY bad in that game :S I mean you had 17 mutalisks, he had 0 turrets in his main and you didnt go there a single time >.< Nice build nevertheless ^^
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On May 10 2011 06:04 Jermstuddog wrote:
^ Close-position is imba is about all that was proved there.
no-gas or not, Zerg is at a terrible deficit for simply having the wrong spawn locations. This is why close-pos is banned from all respectable tournaments.
Adding to that:
In the OP, Spanishiwa states that this build is very weak against 2rax on close positions, so it's not suprising that the result was not in his favour with 3 close spawns. I'm still hoping Blizzard removes close spawn on Metalopolis, Slag Pits and Shattered Temple, though we might get a lot of balance whining from terrans playing against the Spanishiwa build then
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EPT
