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On May 04 2011 16:41 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 11:13 DicW wrote:I had followed to use Spanishiwa Build 2weeks ago and get nearly beat all T and P in my league (Bronze). However, since this build become famous, when P saw me 16 Hatch without gas, they just 4gate push and gg. I have tried to build more spine/ queen/ and even trick toss to put 14 gas and delete it, but it can't defeat early rush still. For ZvT, they just boom lots of marine when I am still droning around 30. I feel really depressed.  You're just too slow. Against a 4gate, you will need at least 5 spines and 4 queens and you have to be on top with your transfuses. If you scout the 4gate, build even more spines, as long as you hold the push he will be behind. You can also switch from building drones to building lings as he pushes, make sure the waypoint isn't close to the enemy though, you want your lings together and not streaming in.
I wouldn't say at LEAST 5 Spines and 4 Queens. I think 4 Queens + 3 Spines is the start that you need, and you add on additional spines if they continue to commit to the 4gate push. If you put up 5 spines and they just back off and transition into deathball, that's a lot of extra resources that they've saved in ground army and a lot of extra drones/resources expended into Spine Crawlers.
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On May 04 2011 23:53 Astronomancy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:41 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2011 11:13 DicW wrote:I had followed to use Spanishiwa Build 2weeks ago and get nearly beat all T and P in my league (Bronze). However, since this build become famous, when P saw me 16 Hatch without gas, they just 4gate push and gg. I have tried to build more spine/ queen/ and even trick toss to put 14 gas and delete it, but it can't defeat early rush still. For ZvT, they just boom lots of marine when I am still droning around 30. I feel really depressed. You're just too slow. Against a 4gate, you will need at least 5 spines and 4 queens and you have to be on top with your transfuses. If you scout the 4gate, build even more spines, as long as you hold the push he will be behind. You can also switch from building drones to building lings as he pushes, make sure the waypoint isn't close to the enemy though, you want your lings together and not streaming in. I wouldn't say at LEAST 5 Spines and 4 Queens. I think 4 Queens + 3 Spines is the start that you need, and you add on additional spines if they continue to commit to the 4gate push. If you put up 5 spines and they just back off and transition into deathball, that's a lot of extra resources that they've saved in ground army and a lot of extra drones/resources expended into Spine Crawlers.
I think that's unsafe (and I do think spanishiwa agrees, in one of his replays he goes 5 spines blind against what he assumes to be a 4gate). Good queen micro makes it easier, but there are many 4gates where the protoss comes with quite a beefy stalker army which can take down the queens and 3 spines easily. It's extra dangerous since it's so hard to add spines once the protoss actually pushes. I mean sure, if you're very good at scouting and feel confident that the protoss army is still weak, definitely stay on 3 spines, but I don't think it's dangerous to go to 5. The 100 extra minerals and 2 less drones won't be a big issue compared to the lost economy of the 4gate.
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On May 04 2011 23:58 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 23:53 Astronomancy wrote:On May 04 2011 16:41 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2011 11:13 DicW wrote:I had followed to use Spanishiwa Build 2weeks ago and get nearly beat all T and P in my league (Bronze). However, since this build become famous, when P saw me 16 Hatch without gas, they just 4gate push and gg. I have tried to build more spine/ queen/ and even trick toss to put 14 gas and delete it, but it can't defeat early rush still. For ZvT, they just boom lots of marine when I am still droning around 30. I feel really depressed. You're just too slow. Against a 4gate, you will need at least 5 spines and 4 queens and you have to be on top with your transfuses. If you scout the 4gate, build even more spines, as long as you hold the push he will be behind. You can also switch from building drones to building lings as he pushes, make sure the waypoint isn't close to the enemy though, you want your lings together and not streaming in. I wouldn't say at LEAST 5 Spines and 4 Queens. I think 4 Queens + 3 Spines is the start that you need, and you add on additional spines if they continue to commit to the 4gate push. If you put up 5 spines and they just back off and transition into deathball, that's a lot of extra resources that they've saved in ground army and a lot of extra drones/resources expended into Spine Crawlers. I think that's unsafe (and I do think spanishiwa agrees, in one of his replays he goes 5 spines blind against what he assumes to be a 4gate). Good queen micro makes it easier, but there are many 4gates where the protoss comes with quite a beefy stalker army which can take down the queens and 3 spines easily. It's extra dangerous since it's so hard to add spines once the protoss actually pushes. I mean sure, if you're very good at scouting and feel confident that the protoss army is still weak, definitely stay on 3 spines, but I don't think it's dangerous to go to 5. The 100 extra minerals and 2 less drones won't be a big issue compared to the lost economy of the 4gate.
I would now place 6 spine for 4 gate, and it seems really work with it, thanks for your help
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On May 04 2011 23:44 Mystes wrote:
i am really eager to learn this build but there is one thing that bugs me: how to deal with a pylon block? it just seems as if this build is gonna straight up lose to it if the protoss is not getting fooled by you taking a gas
I haven't been pylon blocked a single time since I started going 13 Hatch, which this build now suggests
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With the Zealot/Stalker build time reversions, this opening is going to be virtually impossible for Toss to punish.
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On May 03 2011 05:42 yarkO wrote:
Honestly I tried to 1base DT rush into expo vs this style of play but he had blindly built a Spore at his natural choke, denying me entry.
I tried to follow up with a +1 Chargelot + Archon attack and proceeded to lose terribly because he had Spine Crawlers behind Evo Chambers and I just couldn't get enough surface area, it was a suicide mission that cost me the game.
Not sure how to follow up a failed DT rush, since his economy isn't dented or delayed and my tech up to that point is now useless. Transition to Robo feels really slow and awkward and often times you won't be able to mass up anything that can stop the Infestors.
I haven't had a good chance to try going DTs and staying on Templar tech, transitioning to HT for Feedback and whatnot, but I also assume it would be really weak if they decide to make Roaches.
I like this as a counter to an Archon/Zealot push after DTs. Placing evo chambers in front of spines sounds like an awesome idea.
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Just want to say thank you to Spanishiwa for this build. I may be a lowly bronze player, but with this style I can actually get my head around playing zerg :-D Much love
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I think this style has some merit, but its much better getting the early speed and then just taking off gas in my opinion. Speedlings are just so important early game, they give you scouting and map control 2 things no player should choose to be without. This is especially prudent in ZvP I think.
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On May 05 2011 18:21 Mojar wrote:
I think this style has some merit, but its much better getting the early speed and then just taking off gas in my opinion. Speedlings are just so important early game, they give you scouting and map control 2 things no player should choose to be without. This is especially prudent in ZvP I think.
I personally disagree. Speedlings are awesome, but the main reason to have speed is to make the zerglings better at engaging and surrounding enemies. Slow lings do fine for scouting purposes, especially early game where there's only 1-2 bases to keep an eye on.
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Hmm, has anyone here tried transitioning from this opening to a muta midgame in ZvP?
The problem with mutas was always that you couldn't hold 6-gate. I want to try it out
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On May 05 2011 21:22 hugman wrote:
Hmm, has anyone here tried transitioning from this opening to a muta midgame in ZvP?
The problem with mutas was always that you couldn't hold 6-gate. I want to try it out
I defend a 6 gate with a duck ton of spines, lings would just get ff to death, instead of the lings build a Hell of spines instead, like 10 or 12.. more even, and just go soley for mutas.
Focus fire the stalker/sentries and let the spines take care of the zealots.. then instant counter.
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With the Zealot/Stalker build times going unbuffed in the next patch, and pylon distance and WG tech both nerfed somewhat, Toss is gonna have a hell of a time punishing this--cannon rushes are nerfed as is Toss simcity in general, and it will take Toss slightly longer to build up a gateway force of anything but Sentries, which not only nerfs early Toss agression, but makes even stuff like forge or sentry fast expands somewhat riskier.
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doesnt the shortened build time buff 2 gate agression?
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On May 06 2011 04:45 Yagulare wrote:
doesnt the shortened build time buff 2 gate agression?
nope, they revealed the zealot build time buff. only stalkers are built faster. also wg research time was reduced from 180 to 160 in PTR. currently: 140
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On May 06 2011 04:45 Yagulare wrote:
doesnt the shortened build time buff 2 gate agression?
Not since they changed the zealot build times back to normal.
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nope, they revealed the zealot build time buff. only stalkers are built faster. also wg research time was reduced from 180 to 160 in PTR. currently: 140
Stalkers are not built faster. Sentries are, but without other units in support, Sentries are almost a purely defensive unit. Protoss options for early aggressions are fairly limited, especially as all their timings are based around warp cycles, and will therefore hit later.
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On May 06 2011 05:07 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +nope, they revealed the zealot build time buff. only stalkers are built faster. also wg research time was reduced from 180 to 160 in PTR. currently: 140 Stalkers are not built faster. Sentries are, but without other units in support, Sentries are almost a purely defensive unit. Protoss options for early aggressions are fairly limited, especially as all their timings are based around warp cycles, and will therefore hit later.
oops, sorry for misinformation
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Hi everybody, I am Plat/diamond Zerg noob.
But with my "outdated opening" 7RR + 1 drone for spine (at opponent nat), I usually manage to counter the "ice fisher" on maps like XNC. You may call this tech the "MNS counter to the Spanishiwa opening"
The only point is : need to find a good location to pop your spine - somewhere not reachable by those 2 (or 3?) opponent spines!!
Then gg, look him poping lings lol; while your roaches are dancing next to your spine crawler, spine attacks the expo. You can play it very agressively or play it "pre-macro game" making drones during pressure. It's up to you to evaluate things.
Guys i have a better name for this counter tech : the rice cooker!
Obviously, it is more powerful on little maps (but try it on Typhon Pics and tell me LOL!)
One replay here :
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=207184&st=0#8373166
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thats the exact problem i m having using the ice fisher in zvz.
i cant seem to hold it against a roach rush. m i supposed to pop down like 5crawlers to have a chance of holding? any1 knows how to hold vs a roach rush or roach ling all in?
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I guess if u pop 5 crawlers (especially if it's not feint) I juste have to enter your main because you have no lings + no queen. If I can't enter your main, I go back with my roaches, make an expo and pop lots of drones : according to me i would be ahead...
PS : from my xperience, this rush is less effective against standard speedlings+FE since speedlings are more powerful against roach, can hard-counter a retreat and/or can make good run by.
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EPT
