EPT
[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 44
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Fishermang
Norway56 Posts
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Boundless
Canada588 Posts
I think the best matchup to do this in is ZvP, since spine crawlers are so good against early stalker pressure but less effective against zealots. I've had the most success doing it there, but four gates are really really hard to deal with. ZvT is really random at the diamond level, since a lot of people 2rax-4rax without expansion, so it's tough for me to really comment on this build since I don't use it there... I'm still skeptical about this build on any map that's not Terminus or TalDarim Altar. On huge maps it can work, but on maps like Xelnaga or close positions on Shattered Temple/Metal/Slag Pits its really sketchy. | ||
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Afterstar
67 Posts
The only way i see countering it,is either going 1base all-in strats,cheese,3OC/4OC Griffin build to keep up and constant suicidal aggression (unit trading) to force him to produce military units constantly. Infestors are dominating infantry and late game Zerg can easily switch between Broodlords and Ultralisks making it an uphill battle. | ||
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Pinna
Finland152 Posts
So, how do you guys handle the couple first colossi with this build?? | ||
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SpaceYeti
United States723 Posts
On May 01 2011 05:53 Pinna wrote: Um...he shouldn't have colossi that fast unless he's rushing colossi, and if he is, you should be able to scout it. If you see fast colossi, you can always deviate from the opener to prepare. You defend any super super fast colossus push semi competently, you'll probably be miles ahead.This doesn't work at all, at least I can't make it work. The thing is, the Protoss just moves out with his first colossi, outranges the spines and you won't have anything by that time. So, how do you guys handle the couple first colossi with this build?? Some things to look for indicating super fast colossus: Quick 2nd gas No expansion 2-3 gateways A robo ----> big indicator here! I don't play toss, and I rarely encounter fast fast colossus, but my guess is the earliest they can really have them is ~7:00 min (correct me if I'm wrong; it'll be even later if he's waiting for thermal lance). And that is if they are RUSHING to get them out. This means that if you scout at around 5:00 or 5:30 minutes with an ovie sack, you will most likely see this tech going down and can prepare in time by stopping drone production and massing units (get your gas obviously). Note if he is truly rushing to colossi, he'll probably be zealot heavy and somewhat sentry light, as he'll need the gas for the tech and colossus. Also, if you have your 4 queens already, you'll be surprised how well they can focus down a colossus and keep your army alive with xfuse. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On May 01 2011 06:45 SpaceYeti wrote: Um...he shouldn't have colossi that fast unless he's rushing colossi, and if he is, you should be able to scout it. If you see fast colossi, you can always deviate from the opener to prepare. You defend any super super fast colossus push semi competently, you'll probably be miles ahead. Some things to look for indicating super fast colossus: Quick 2nd gas No expansion 2-3 gateways A robo ----> big indicator here! I don't play toss, and I rarely encounter fast fast colossus, but my guess is the earliest they can really have them is ~7:00 min (correct me if I'm wrong; it'll be even later if he's waiting for thermal lance). And that is if they are RUSHING to get them out. This means that if you scout at around 5:00 or 5:30 minutes with an ovie sack, you will most likely see this tech going down and can prepare in time by stopping drone production and massing units (get your gas obviously). Note if he is truly rushing to colossi, he'll probably be zealot heavy and somewhat sentry light, as he'll need the gas for the tech and colossus. Also, if you have your 4 queens already, you'll be surprised how well they can focus down a colossus and keep your army alive with xfuse. I fully agree, the opponent cannot get colossi out without you having some sort of tech to counter them, unless he sacrifices a lot to get it. If he does sacrifice everything, then your queens can actually fight a colossus quite well, they have very good range against air and do quite a nice amount of damage, you just have to focus fire him with your queens every time he gets close enough. For this build, scouting is a very, very, _very_ big factor. You have to know what your opponent does to know when to break out of the build into earlier gas/different tech. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On May 01 2011 01:20 Boundless wrote: Its difficult to do this well in ZvZ, since larva inject necessitates a lot of scouting. Because of the injection mechanic, he can be making an absolute crap ton of lings off one hatchery, and because you're not going to get speed he will have all the control and scouting. Ret talked about this in his 12 weeks with the pros appearance with MrBitter... Some people skip ling speed entirely for faster roaches and upgrades, but speedlings are amazing for map control and scouting the front of your opponents main, something you won't have by doing this build. I think the best matchup to do this in is ZvP, since spine crawlers are so good against early stalker pressure but less effective against zealots. I've had the most success doing it there, but four gates are really really hard to deal with. ZvT is really random at the diamond level, since a lot of people 2rax-4rax without expansion, so it's tough for me to really comment on this build since I don't use it there... I'm still skeptical about this build on any map that's not Terminus or TalDarim Altar. On huge maps it can work, but on maps like Xelnaga or close positions on Shattered Temple/Metal/Slag Pits its really sketchy. i agree with slag pits and xelnaga but shattered temple is really easy to defend with spines and additionally you can lock the path to your main with an evo chamber (also shakuras is quite good for) spines crawlers are less good but if you have lots of lings you can attack zealots and either kill them or the protoss has to cast forcefields but while its strong against lings it also makes attacking your spines much harder as they outrange all protoss gate units and due to their hitpoints and armor they wont die to hits from few units fast so 4 gate should not be a problem if you made enough crawlers and lings in time to force this situation spine crawlers are just underused but they are by far the most larva effective "unit" and most of my own games contain 6 or even more spine crawlers to prevent early pushes (on maps with small entrance to natural so not on xc for example) or counterattacks after i drop or muta harass the protoss economy so you should never be afraid to get a lot of crawlers | ||
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aquanda
United States477 Posts
On April 24 2011 21:50 DarKFoRcE wrote: Recently i have been experimenting a bit with baneling drops / infestor play in ZvP. While i dont like your starting build order, the midgame plan could have potential. Here is a replay against some decent european P (underdark) where i open normal 14g14p into exp and then get a few spine crawlers later to be somewhat save against small random gateway pushes: http://www.team-alternate.de/?s=download&id=665 im still experimenting with timings on buildings etc. but right now to me it looks like its better to just get one evo chamber for quick +2 melee attack, because then banelings 1 hit workers. the armor upgrades dont seem to be that important to me. This build is definitely alot better on maps where you can use your initial spine crawlers to secure a third at least somewhat. I have been experimenting with Roach+Bane for over a month and once Protoss has blink and enough collosus the baneling drops on his army cease to do enough damage to justify continuing making banelings. The best use of this unit combo is when the Protoss is taking his third with a ton of sentries and zero or one collosus. Your baneling drops WILL kill all of his sentries and once those are out, you should be able to deny his third with waves of ling/roach, or at the very least do serious damage. Once the protoss realizes you're going heavy baneling drops they (should) stop getting such a high sentry count and focus on stalker/collosus, at which point you will have a decent advantage after doing your initial roach/bane push and can safely switch to roach/hydra/corruptor with 2-4 infestor. Since you already have +2 melee attack and ventral sacs, you can continue harassing with drops while pressuring his expansions. It took me a long time to realize that roach/bane only works up until a certain point in the game. If you do end up killing him with that unit comp, it was the protoss fault, not zerg success. Once the collosus count gets to 4, it becomes absurdly hard to come out ahead with ling/roach/bane. Just my observations, I totally agree with all of your points Darkforce and gl in NASL! <3 | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On May 01 2011 09:27 aquanda wrote: I have been experimenting with Roach+Bane for over a month and once Protoss has blink and enough collosus the baneling drops on his army cease to do enough damage to justify continuing making banelings. The best use of this unit combo is when the Protoss is taking his third with a ton of sentries and zero or one collosus. Your baneling drops WILL kill all of his sentries and once those are out, you should be able to deny his third with waves of ling/roach, or at the very least do serious damage. Once the protoss realizes you're going heavy baneling drops they (should) stop getting such a high sentry count and focus on stalker/collosus, at which point you will have a decent advantage after doing your initial roach/bane push and can safely switch to roach/hydra/corruptor with 2-4 infestor. Since you already have +2 melee attack and ventral sacs, you can continue harassing with drops while pressuring his expansions. It took me a long time to realize that roach/bane only works up until a certain point in the game. If you do end up killing him with that unit comp, it was the protoss fault, not zerg success. Once the collosus count gets to 4, it becomes absurdly hard to come out ahead with ling/roach/bane. Just my observations, I totally agree with all of your points Darkforce and gl in NASL! <3 im just wondering why you would switch to roach/hydra/corruptor when you spent a lot of resources into melee attacks and overlord upgrades?in my mind this combo is meant to open the way to reach tier3 where zerg get their strongest units that are able to compete with the protoss deathball | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On May 01 2011 10:31 Alphasquad wrote: im just wondering why you would switch to roach/hydra/corruptor when you spent a lot of resources into melee attacks and overlord upgrades?in my mind this combo is meant to open the way to reach tier3 where zerg get their strongest units that are able to compete with the protoss deathball It's possible to continue utilizing those upgrades. Overlord speed is something you should always have for mid/late-game scouting, and Roach/Ling drops are very useful for harassing spread out Protoss expansions in the late-game. Melee upgrades are the best way to improve Broodlord effectiveness in the late-game, which is a natural transition from Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. In fact you have to transition at some point unless you are vastly ahead in (ranged) upgrades because Roach/Hydra/Corruptor can't beat a well-crafted death ball. Just saying that in the late-game with a mainly Roach/Broodlord composition, melee will give better dividends than ranged attack. Carapace is obviously still useful. EDIT: Obviously melee will help you with an Ultralisk transition too if you decide he's too Stalker heavy. | ||
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B34ST
United Kingdom150 Posts
Can't do it, the delayed ones I can easily hold but its the super duper 1 base baneling 12 drone max all ins that I lose too.. I win otherwise. Been playing with 11 overpool 14 gas 18 hatch, in the hopes the early pool will stop them all in'ing, or atleast I'll be able to get a few banelings out. Then going back to the no gas. Played 2 games with it so far, seems to be working, I actually get a single gas for ling speed,3-5 roaches or banelings regardless now, especially vs protoss who fe. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On May 01 2011 11:41 ZasZ. wrote: It's possible to continue utilizing those upgrades. Overlord speed is something you should always have for mid/late-game scouting, and Roach/Ling drops are very useful for harassing spread out Protoss expansions in the late-game. Melee upgrades are the best way to improve Broodlord effectiveness in the late-game, which is a natural transition from Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. In fact you have to transition at some point unless you are vastly ahead in (ranged) upgrades because Roach/Hydra/Corruptor can't beat a well-crafted death ball. Just saying that in the late-game with a mainly Roach/Broodlord composition, melee will give better dividends than ranged attack. Carapace is obviously still useful. EDIT: Obviously melee will help you with an Ultralisk transition too if you decide he's too Stalker heavy. i understand that broodlords is the natural transition from corruptors but i dont see why you would get hydras as they are expensive, they dont really benefit from carapace like roaches due to their sucky hp and also you have to invest in a hydra den and range upgrade if you dropped sentries sucessfully lings, roaches and corruptors will do fine against the protoss army | ||
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KaniasReplays
United States39 Posts
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
keep going u are an awesome player!! im hungry for more replays and thoughts from your games!!! congratulations!!! | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
However, the same goes for the Terran and, especially Protoss, opponents who are probably even less used to these small trades. It's always good when you can spread a Protoss army thin because their cost-effectiveness is crap and are not the most mobile units in the game. I highly recommend trying this out even if you don't believe in it because it's great practice on crisis management. You just have to not mind losing games until you get good at it. Remember, you opponent will also be facing the same situation and in most cases, they will just ignore the damage you are doing to them and try to take you out with their more compact army. You just have to 1) successfully damage his economy or infrastructure and 2) defend his big attack on your bases by making what little defense you have there more cost-effective than him (good fungal etc.) | ||
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Jinir9
United States25 Posts
Vs Terran, if the terran stays on one base, goes 1 rax wall off into factory, pumps a marine out puts reactor on, and switches with the fact, gets 4 hellions to get map control back. has the original rax build tech lab, and simultaneously gets another rax and fac (fac with tech lab). Pump marines where possible but get 3 tanks and start pushing with siege mode to natural of zerg while rallying, bring a scv or two to build turrets around siege tanks if you manage to get a engi bay during the push. Now I'm sure i did a horrible job but what you end up with is a fairly fast push with 4 tanks sieged attacking spines/lings/hatchery at the natural. You have 4 hellions (you can't let those die under any circumstances), good handful of marines to handle any aggression towards the tanks, maybe two scvs to put down some turrets once you get around 9:30 in the game. Try to deny scouting before you get the hellions and watch for overlords or overseers poking around your base. If your close spawn this works great, if you have to run across a map be very careful and make sure you've prodded ahead to see what your getting yourself into. You can start to build a CC inside your base to set up for expansion and lay down whatever you want to go into, another fac for mech or more rax and a starport to support heavy bio. w/e really. Hash has done this against spanishiwa and I was impressed to see how well it worked. Was close spawn though so. Enjoy. | ||
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majicbeasty
United States2 Posts
Replay: + Show Spoiler + | ||
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aniallator
Scotland5 Posts
Replays: + Show Spoiler + | ||
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watwat
48 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On April 23 2011 02:02 arbitrageur wrote: U say 1 base DT gives you trouble? why? So you may wish to cancel the Evo, but this is more a metagame thing.Q.E.D. This is an accurate use of 'metagame'. Congratulations! But adding QED to your post is dumb. | ||
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