EPT[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 45
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
Usually I'm able to handle the DTs, but when that Archon push comes it seems like no number of Spines, Queens, and Ling/Bane/Infestor can hold it. Should the Zerg player transition to Roaches when they see Templar tech? I haven't lost any ZvTs in a while with this build though. As Spanishiwa demonstrated in his massacre of TLO, this build is very, very stable and solid in ZvT. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On May 03 2011 03:41 crocodile wrote: I love this build in ZvT and ZvP (Even Spanishiwa himself has admitted this is not viable ZvZ), and I am a Master League Zerg, but I'm curious as to how someone more experienced with this build handles a DT-expand build by Protoss, followed up with two base Gateway+Archons timing attack. Usually I'm able to handle the DTs, but when that Archon push comes it seems like no number of Spines, Queens, and Ling/Bane/Infestor can hold it. Should the Zerg player transition to Roaches when they see Templar tech? I haven't lost any ZvTs in a while with this build though. As Spanishiwa demonstrated in his massacre of TLO, this build is very, very stable and solid in ZvT. The first DTs shouldn't be a problem at all if you scout properly. If you suspect DTs (early second gas, no stargate tech, ...), just get an evo earlier and plant down a spore crawler in each base, you can afford the mineral investment and your extra queens can keep it alive with transfuses. I haven't had someone go archon against me, but i think roaches or ultralisks combined with infestors would be the best choice. You can get neural parasite and use his archons against him, fungal them all in place until you have reinforcements or focus your fungals on his sentries and kill those, so your other units can close in more easily. It would help to see a replay though. | ||
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themell
43 Posts
On May 03 2011 03:41 crocodile wrote: I love this build in ZvT and ZvP (Even Spanishiwa himself has admitted this is not viable ZvZ), and I am a Master League Zerg, but I'm curious as to how someone more experienced with this build handles a DT-expand build by Protoss, followed up with two base Gateway+Archons timing attack. Usually I'm able to handle the DTs, but when that Archon push comes it seems like no number of Spines, Queens, and Ling/Bane/Infestor can hold it. Should the Zerg player transition to Roaches when they see Templar tech? I haven't lost any ZvTs in a while with this build though. As Spanishiwa demonstrated in his massacre of TLO, this build is very, very stable and solid in ZvT. Have you tried to simcity your expansion? Spine crawlers behind roach warren and/or evolution chambers is really difficult to get to with melee units and fat archons. | ||
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Astronomancy
United States4 Posts
On May 03 2011 03:57 themell wrote: Have you tried to simcity your expansion? Spine crawlers behind roach warren and/or evolution chambers is really difficult to get to with melee units and fat archons. In my experience regarding the Archon heavy push, I find that if you can utilize a Baneling drop to deal with most of the gateway army, you should be able to finish off what remains with Lings/Roach/Infestor fairly easily. In many cases, if I am already ahead, I can do this without needing to enter the Roaches/Infestors into the equation at all, however, this may just be the quality of the game moreso than the strategy. Alternatively, if it is a really heavily Archon slanted push, you could get away with utilizing Hydralisks. Hydralisks can kite Archons essentially forever on Creep. However, the issue here is that Hydralisks really start to suffer as Colossus numbers increase, making this a somewhat less than optimal choice. Although, you could work that into Hydra drops afterwards. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
 The terran (semiclose positions on meta) went for a strong but late hellion push. I expected mass marine (as is usual in lower league TvZ) so I already had 5 spine crawlers up. I doubt I even lost 5 drones, while he lost a ton of hellions. After that, I went pure ling and added mutalisks later on as I got my third. He tried MMM push me several times, didn't even get to my spine crawlers with the amount of lings and mutas I could support, my creepspread made it very easy to engage at a good time. Once I felt confident in my advantage in upgrades, I rolled his third base, resupplied, then leveled his main. My tips for newbies trying the build: Try it against the computer, you should easily be able to beat a very hard computer using the build before you try it online. Go overboard on spine crawlers, in lower leagues this won't put you massively behind since your opponent will probably not have the macro needed to take advantage of it. I'd say go 3 spines blind, add more if you see a push. Keep a close eye on your minerals, if you're like me, you'll be floating them like crazy as you get full saturation, so you can easily double-expand. Don't be too hasty in attacking, you might feel a lot more powerful than you actually are because of the strong economy, try to deny expos instead and wait for your upgrades to really kick in. | ||
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sgtjimmy
Canada107 Posts
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TheResidentEvil
United States991 Posts
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genopath
80 Posts
On May 03 2011 05:33 TheResidentEvil wrote: IdrA taking your style. You must really have something here. great post. I think it's a variation of this build, but yea he did mention in his interview with incontrol about using the "Spanishiwa build" | ||
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yarkO
Canada810 Posts
I tried to follow up with a +1 Chargelot + Archon attack and proceeded to lose terribly because he had Spine Crawlers behind Evo Chambers and I just couldn't get enough surface area, it was a suicide mission that cost me the game. Not sure how to follow up a failed DT rush, since his economy isn't dented or delayed and my tech up to that point is now useless. Transition to Robo feels really slow and awkward and often times you won't be able to mass up anything that can stop the Infestors. I haven't had a good chance to try going DTs and staying on Templar tech, transitioning to HT for Feedback and whatnot, but I also assume it would be really weak if they decide to make Roaches. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
What makes you decide whether to go for baneling drops, or to go with mass ling/infestor? | ||
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burnswuff
United States61 Posts
I think hellion banshee MIGHT work but the numerous queens will kill all the banshees. I've tried many methods however none of them work. I would prefer a less "all in" strategy. | ||
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Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
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ETisME
12715 Posts
however, because my micro isn't good enough, I must have gas for ling speed early and so I can't live out this built completely yet. but this built is helping me with my macro a lot, spreading creeps and scouting feels a lot more natural (through still facing problem with lots of mass banshee cheese against T) Big Fan  GJ at beating TLO btw, matches were awesome to watch | ||
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Fishermang
Norway56 Posts
On May 03 2011 12:19 burnswuff wrote: So I've been having a lot of problems with this build. I am diamond level terran and it seems like every zerg i face does this build. I dont think my micro is extremely well so 2 raxing is not really an option for me. The thing that ticks me off he is going for this particular build is when he has many queens and extremely saturated in his bases. Ive tried, 1 rax Fe and it doesnt work. Also when playing against a normal zerg they can only pick one type of gas intensive unit. However, with spanishiwa's build there is an abundance of gas. They run out with ultra Broodlords, infestors, and lings. How would a terran go about dealing with this type of build? I think hellion banshee MIGHT work but the numerous queens will kill all the banshees. I've tried many methods however none of them work. I would prefer a less "all in" strategy. I play this always against terran, and what I have trouble with most is early hellion drops. But that is just me, but maybe it gives an idea of something that may help you out? | ||
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brendaaan
New Zealand77 Posts
On May 03 2011 12:19 burnswuff wrote: So I've been having a lot of problems with this build. I am diamond level terran and it seems like every zerg i face does this build. I dont think my micro is extremely well so 2 raxing is not really an option for me. The thing that ticks me off he is going for this particular build is when he has many queens and extremely saturated in his bases. Ive tried, 1 rax Fe and it doesnt work. Also when playing against a normal zerg they can only pick one type of gas intensive unit. However, with spanishiwa's build there is an abundance of gas. They run out with ultra Broodlords, infestors, and lings. How would a terran go about dealing with this type of build? I think hellion banshee MIGHT work but the numerous queens will kill all the banshees. I've tried many methods however none of them work. I would prefer a less "all in" strategy. aint life a bitch lol i think that they should buff the marine so it has a greater dps and more health... it would make it a bit more even dont you think? | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On May 03 2011 18:59 Fishermang wrote: I play this always against terran, and what I have trouble with most is early hellion drops. But that is just me, but maybe it gives an idea of something that may help you out? Yes, hellions are definatly the biggest danger, must not even be drops. Rax -> Reactor -> Factory -> Swap -> Produce lots of Hellions to harass, get a second factory with tech lab for blueflame and tech to drop while harassing all the time. You just have to be extra careful when walking on creep, since on creep slowlings can catch hellions. Until around Minute 8 there is no speedling tech available if the zerg didn't switch to earlier gas, so try to lure his lings off creep, roast them and then move into the mineral line. If it's not blocked, try to get up the ramp with your first 4 hellions. If you manage to do that, you can do a serious amount of damage as usually the static defense as well as 3 of the 4 queens are in the natural and he won't have the amount of Slowlings needed to defend against the Hellions. In general, you _have_ to harass and kill a lot of drones to get on equal footing into the midgame. Another option, which i personally am not a big fan of, would be to double-expand and trying to get an equally strong eco. It is quite safe in the first minutes, but it does make you very vulnerable for the heavy mid-game harass with drops, burrowed infestors and nydus worms that is typical for the Spanishiwa Style. | ||
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DicW
Hong Kong14 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On May 04 2011 11:13 DicW wrote: I had followed to use Spanishiwa Build 2weeks ago and get nearly beat all T and P in my league (Bronze). However, since this build become famous, when P saw me 16 Hatch without gas, they just 4gate push and gg. I have tried to build more spine/ queen/ and even trick toss to put 14 gas and delete it, but it can't defeat early rush still. For ZvT, they just boom lots of marine when I am still droning around 30. I feel really depressed. You're just too slow. Against a 4gate, you will need at least 5 spines and 4 queens and you have to be on top with your transfuses. If you scout the 4gate, build even more spines, as long as you hold the push he will be behind. You can also switch from building drones to building lings as he pushes, make sure the waypoint isn't close to the enemy though, you want your lings together and not streaming in. | ||
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Mystes
Germany42 Posts
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