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On April 27 2011 02:12 ElPeque.fogata wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 22:33 Whitewing wrote:
Secondly, 2 is also wrong: if you start warp gate at the usual time, throw down your twilight citadel then dark shrine, warp gate will still be done way earlier than the DT's are available. Even if you start it a bit late to get the twilight council down sooner, it'll still be done much earlier than the DT's are ready.
Really? I don't play toss, so i'll just believe you in that one. That would be constantly chronoboosting the warp upgrade right? Good timming to know.
assuming you have enough minerals to start warpgate, build units, and start dt tech at the same time(you dont), assuming no CB, dark shrine finishes 30 in game seconds before warpgate.....now realistically, warpgate will always be done before dark shrine
WG->180
Council->50
Dark shrine->100
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Today I got yelled at for using the "spanishwa build". apparently anything involving infestors get labeled the spanishiwa build. What I did basically was go slightly later gas (30 maybe), go ling speed, do the typical roach for ZvP just to be safe, but then I used the rest of my gas for infestors, with no plans to go super early T3. I held of whatever push he had with ling roach, droned up my third, baneling dropped and fungaled his mineral line, and the spanishiwa flaming begins.
I have to commend you.. Suddenly every zerg build that isn't gas before pool is a spanishiwa build. you unwillingly got pattent on all FE b4 gas zerg play, and apparently it is only done by retards who can't play, or so I was told.
I'm sorry. In all honesty, it is cool that a new zerg opening has been popularized. Keeps the opponent guessing
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On April 27 2011 08:16 Dragom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 01:50 General_Winter wrote:
Has anyone else been having a very hard time with opponents who go muta against this? I've found the late gas means op can get a bunch of mutas before you have any tech finished. then with the mutas you can't scout, can't attack, can't expand, and cant ever catch up to the muta cloud.
Queens and spore crawlers can't really defend against careful harass as mutas are so much faster. Has anyone else been having this problem, and has anyone found a way around it? I'm sure 'm missing something, but from my experience this build just does't work in zvz if your op goes muta.
Mutalisks only work until the infestors are out. 4 or 5 Infestors can kill as many mutalisks as fungal covers and with infested terrans they can also provide some cover if the mutalisks are spread (though i haven't seen magic boxed mutalisks in ZvZ yet). My record were 24 Mutalisks killed by 4 infestors because he target fired a queen that was running away and all his mutalisks clumped together. There is a small timing window where Mutalisks work against the spanishiwa style if you go straight to mutalisks (with mutalisks popping at 9:00), but after that window it's very risky, get caught out of position once and you lose all your mutalisks. Mutalisks can still be used defensively against drops, kill runbys and to maintain map control, you just can't use them for harass without the risk of losing them all without killing anything. It's also a big gas investment that puts you back in tech, so you have to transition away from it quickly. As someone who does not have the fastest comp in the world, infestors are kinda useless against mutas, when hes focusing down a queen with like 9 mutas, i transfuse that queen and then fire a fungal growth. unfortunately, due to fungals kinda not instant cast and the stun time only 4 seconds. i really dont like spamming spores that muta guy always attacks when he has like 7-8 mutas, he also seems to hide his spire.
If you want to play SC2 competetively your choice of strategy should not be influenced by the performance of your computer -_-.
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I was bronze league low silverish for the longest time and now bout to go gold lol sorry for the weakness, but this build has been great to play with... Kill
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I've been watching Spanishiwa use this build alot lately. At first it seemed like it would be very difficult to hold off early pressure, but watching him do it makes it look sooo easy...and then its just a massive steam roller of gas tech units. Very shmexy.
Thanks for the write up, definatly going to try this one out over the next few weeks.
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Such a great build, it seems there is no point to do anything else if you are aiming for a macro game.
I have really much trouble holding against zerg though, as most people go fast agression and various all ins to just get it over with asap.
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Zurich15366 Posts
The major problem of lower level Z is they may want to play macro games, but they are not able to. Usually they'll mindlessly try some sort of fast expansion build and free style from there, and most likely die to equally bad executed one base play. Thus many switch to the terrible baneling bust and 7rr strategies and never really improve.
This build may have its weaknesses, but it forces both the Z and their opponents into a macro game AND gives the Zerg a plan how to get there and what to do once you are in mid / late game. Sure, as their opponents get better they'll run into problems at some point. But here is me hoping at that point that will prompt Zerg to work on and improve their macro game instead of defaulting to the retarded one base strategies they used to do before.
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On April 28 2011 20:03 Fishermang wrote:
Such a great build, it seems there is no point to do anything else if you are aiming for a macro game.
I have really much trouble holding against zerg though, as most people go fast agression and various all ins to just get it over with asap.
I have the same problem holding against Zerg, especially one maps like tal darim with big chokes/no ramps. I open spanishiwa build on metalopolis, but I feel like I need zergling speed faster everywhere else, I'm too afraid that a speedling all-in would crush me, or do plenty damage.
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On April 28 2011 22:08 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 20:03 Fishermang wrote:
Such a great build, it seems there is no point to do anything else if you are aiming for a macro game.
I have really much trouble holding against zerg though, as most people go fast agression and various all ins to just get it over with asap. I have the same problem holding against Zerg, especially one maps like tal darim with big chokes/no ramps. I open spanishiwa build on metalopolis, but I feel like I need zergling speed faster everywhere else, I'm too afraid that a speedling all-in would crush me, or do plenty damage.
Same here. I expand, get Queens and try to get up defense, but the opponent just seems to need to mindlessly mass Speedlings to crush me.
Even on blockable ramps i can only prevent the opponent from getting into the main, but i almost always lose the expansion and then i'm behind because i don't have enough larva to make up for the unit difference and my queens don't have enough transfuses to hold forever.
I always go for the macro game, but on small maps with vulnerable natural, the build requires a lot of practice and perfect scouting... or i'm just bad.
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On April 28 2011 22:25 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:08 Zorkmid wrote:On April 28 2011 20:03 Fishermang wrote:
Such a great build, it seems there is no point to do anything else if you are aiming for a macro game.
I have really much trouble holding against zerg though, as most people go fast agression and various all ins to just get it over with asap. I have the same problem holding against Zerg, especially one maps like tal darim with big chokes/no ramps. I open spanishiwa build on metalopolis, but I feel like I need zergling speed faster everywhere else, I'm too afraid that a speedling all-in would crush me, or do plenty damage. Same here. I expand, get Queens and try to get up defense, but the opponent just seems to need to mindlessly mass Speedlings to crush me. Even on blockable ramps i can only prevent the opponent from getting into the main, but i almost always lose the expansion and then i'm behind because i don't have enough larva to make up for the unit difference and my queens don't have enough transfuses to hold forever. I always go for the macro game, but on small maps with vulnerable natural, the build requires a lot of practice and perfect scouting... or i'm just bad.
I'm having the same problems. I also can't seem to find the correct number of spines. I have tried 1, 2 and 3 with 3-4 queens (depends on the attacktiming), but none of them seems to be stable against mass speedling. I'm wondering how many Spine Crawlers I have to build to stop this, I'm thinking that somehow it will put me behind a lot. :/
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On April 28 2011 21:55 zatic wrote:
The major problem of lower level Z is they may won't to play macro games, but they can't. Usually they'll mindlessly try some sort of fast expansion build and free style from there, and most likely die to equally bad executed one base play.
Well. I really hate strict buildorders, so i pretty much can say i always "freestyle".
When i start a game, at most, i say to myself...
"I'm going to hatch first this game" for whatever reason i think it could be good for me. (Then i might do something else should i change mi mind for whatever reason, like scouting something fishy  )
I don't even know at what supply number, probably aim for 15 or 16 if i can get away with it or adjust, scout and adapt. Do what seems good at each moment.
Then some other general idea like...
"I'll stay tier 1 for a while or make a fast lair", depending on what the other guy does, but have absolutely no idea at what supply or with which drone i "should" do it.
If im going to "go spanishiwa", i just say to myself. "I'll try to fast expand, avoid getting gas to boost minerals and saturate quickly, and rely on queens to defend". Then it's freestyle around that idea.
I know i'm not that good, at least two orders of magnitude away from pros, (Master League, around position 1500-2500 on US), yet i think i could get at least up to top 800 or so just playing more often and almost not paying attention to strict build orders and just freestyling all the way.
Freestyle means you are analyzing and reacting instead of following copied build orders you don't really understand. I think freestyling is the best way to train "gamesense".
Yes, you might get 47 more minerals or get whatever unit 10 seconds sooner with some religiously well executed build order, but most games will be decided by other more important things, like not forgetting to inject, army composition, positioning, choosing the right fight, knowing when you can be greedy and when you should punish the other being greedy.
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i really feel like this build is a lot less effective zvz than the other match ups.. I think it's a great build/strategy against P and T, but against z you really need to get gas quite early.. you really need either speedlings or roaches early game to survive unless it's a map with a very small choke point...
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On April 28 2011 22:39 LLuke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:25 Morfildur wrote:On April 28 2011 22:08 Zorkmid wrote:On April 28 2011 20:03 Fishermang wrote:
Such a great build, it seems there is no point to do anything else if you are aiming for a macro game.
I have really much trouble holding against zerg though, as most people go fast agression and various all ins to just get it over with asap. I have the same problem holding against Zerg, especially one maps like tal darim with big chokes/no ramps. I open spanishiwa build on metalopolis, but I feel like I need zergling speed faster everywhere else, I'm too afraid that a speedling all-in would crush me, or do plenty damage. Same here. I expand, get Queens and try to get up defense, but the opponent just seems to need to mindlessly mass Speedlings to crush me. Even on blockable ramps i can only prevent the opponent from getting into the main, but i almost always lose the expansion and then i'm behind because i don't have enough larva to make up for the unit difference and my queens don't have enough transfuses to hold forever. I always go for the macro game, but on small maps with vulnerable natural, the build requires a lot of practice and perfect scouting... or i'm just bad. I'm having the same problems. I also can't seem to find the correct number of spines. I have tried 1, 2 and 3 with 3-4 queens (depends on the attacktiming), but none of them seems to be stable against mass speedling. I'm wondering how many Spine Crawlers I have to build to stop this, I'm thinking that somehow it will put me behind a lot. :/
A way I've found to hold against speedlings is to place my spines in such a way that they can't get a surround. I usually go for 4-5 spines with queens between any gaps to prevent slings runbys. I've actually found it helpful to also pull the drones from my expo to help defend - knowing that if they are using that many speedlings, even if I lose 1/3rd of my expo drones, I'll /still/ be ahead.
I'll try to find some replays to post when I get home tonight but I've found that you are usually producing enough minerals off your main to not really worry about losing some mining time on your expo.
A different problem that I've found is VR/zealots and proxy 2gate.
For the VR/zealots, I was facing about 6 zealots and 3 VRs. I had 5 queens, 4 spines and drones to defend. The VRs just picked off my queens and his zealots did the rest (he had zealots warping in as the fight continued). How do you defend against a strong air-push like that? I feel like I might have gotten my evo a little slower (I usually go 32-drones, 4-gas, drop a roach warren + 2 evos, lair @ 100 gas, speed @ next 100 gas, then overseer scout - obviously in this case, I got attacked before I could scout the Stargates - my sac'd initial OL scout saw a forge, cyb-core and 4 gates) but otherwise, do you find that you need to put down blind spores just in case you're facing someone rushing air?
For the proxy 2gate, I put down a 13h/15p but cancelled my hatch when I found the 2 gateways (one had just completed and the other one was warping in). As soon as my pool finished, I dropped a spine, 6 zerglings and queen to defend. In the end, I had to pull drones to defend against zealots and eventually lost when I had to re-drone up. How do you hold against proxy gateway/zealots when you almost have to go 14p just to be able to get spines/lings out in time? Or do you think better scouting would have meant that I would go 14p instead of 13h/15p?
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you can also simcity with evo chambers within the spines to avoid the spines from being surrounded and thus live longer and give you more time to transfuse.
And should they kill the evos, you get the broodlings to help in the fight and block a little longer. There is no excuse for not seeing his army coming cause you should have your ovvies in the path. If it looks like you will not be able to defend the drones, send them to mine to the main (they will pass through the queens blocking the ramp) until the danger is over or while you complete your simcity. It's not that bad, remember he is not droning and probably not expanded either.
You can always make some lings of your own. Only fight when within spines or queens to gain efficiency.
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For the proxy 2gate, I put down a 13h/15p but cancelled my hatch when I found the 2 gateways (one had just completed and the other one was warping in). As soon as my pool finished, I dropped a spine, 6 zerglings and queen to defend. In the end, I had to pull drones to defend against zealots and eventually lost when I had to re-drone up. How do you hold against proxy gateway/zealots when you almost have to go 14p just to be able to get spines/lings out in time? Or do you think better scouting would have meant that I would go 14p instead of 13h/15p?
For proxy two gate, if you have time to put spines, don't hesitate to just put down three spines in your main and the game is really yours...
I have two questions:
1. for 2gate proxy, do you actually have time to make spines? (of course it depends how fast you scout the proxy  ..., but supposing you start the spines in your main just after your pool finishes, when you went for 13 hatch 13 pool before, and cancelled the hatch)
2. for a classical 2 gate, how do you defend the push without cancelling your 16 or 13 hatch? Spanishiwa puts some replays, but I cant read them...
Thanks!
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On April 28 2011 23:09 kawaiiryuko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 22:39 LLuke wrote:On April 28 2011 22:25 Morfildur wrote:On April 28 2011 22:08 Zorkmid wrote:On April 28 2011 20:03 Fishermang wrote:
Such a great build, it seems there is no point to do anything else if you are aiming for a macro game.
I have really much trouble holding against zerg though, as most people go fast agression and various all ins to just get it over with asap. I have the same problem holding against Zerg, especially one maps like tal darim with big chokes/no ramps. I open spanishiwa build on metalopolis, but I feel like I need zergling speed faster everywhere else, I'm too afraid that a speedling all-in would crush me, or do plenty damage. Same here. I expand, get Queens and try to get up defense, but the opponent just seems to need to mindlessly mass Speedlings to crush me. Even on blockable ramps i can only prevent the opponent from getting into the main, but i almost always lose the expansion and then i'm behind because i don't have enough larva to make up for the unit difference and my queens don't have enough transfuses to hold forever. I always go for the macro game, but on small maps with vulnerable natural, the build requires a lot of practice and perfect scouting... or i'm just bad. I'm having the same problems. I also can't seem to find the correct number of spines. I have tried 1, 2 and 3 with 3-4 queens (depends on the attacktiming), but none of them seems to be stable against mass speedling. I'm wondering how many Spine Crawlers I have to build to stop this, I'm thinking that somehow it will put me behind a lot. :/ A way I've found to hold against speedlings is to place my spines in such a way that they can't get a surround. I usually go for 4-5 spines with queens between any gaps to prevent slings runbys. I've actually found it helpful to also pull the drones from my expo to help defend - knowing that if they are using that many speedlings, even if I lose 1/3rd of my expo drones, I'll /still/ be ahead. I'll try to find some replays to post when I get home tonight but I've found that you are usually producing enough minerals off your main to not really worry about losing some mining time on your expo. A different problem that I've found is VR/zealots and proxy 2gate. For the VR/zealots, I was facing about 6 zealots and 3 VRs. I had 5 queens, 4 spines and drones to defend. The VRs just picked off my queens and his zealots did the rest (he had zealots warping in as the fight continued). How do you defend against a strong air-push like that? I feel like I might have gotten my evo a little slower (I usually go 32-drones, 4-gas, drop a roach warren + 2 evos, lair @ 100 gas, speed @ next 100 gas, then overseer scout - obviously in this case, I got attacked before I could scout the Stargates - my sac'd initial OL scout saw a forge, cyb-core and 4 gates) but otherwise, do you find that you need to put down blind spores just in case you're facing someone rushing air? For the proxy 2gate, I put down a 13h/15p but cancelled my hatch when I found the 2 gateways (one had just completed and the other one was warping in). As soon as my pool finished, I dropped a spine, 6 zerglings and queen to defend. In the end, I had to pull drones to defend against zealots and eventually lost when I had to re-drone up. How do you hold against proxy gateway/zealots when you almost have to go 14p just to be able to get spines/lings out in time? Or do you think better scouting would have meant that I would go 14p instead of 13h/15p?
In zvz as the build states, build one spine for each minute you don't see your opponent expanding or droning his expansion. With this build it does work pretty well to build many spine crawlers, as the mineral income gets so big so fast. It's just the very all-ins with banelings and speedlings that destroy me, even before you manage to start building spines to defend your expansion.
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I really like this build. I was always a fan of droning up and staying alive on tier 1 units and crush the enemy by macro and map control.
GJ Spanishwa. :D
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On April 28 2011 23:29 Fishermang wrote:
In zvz as the build states, build one spine for each minute you don't see your opponent expanding or droning his expansion. With this build it does work pretty well to build many spine crawlers, as the mineral income gets so big so fast. It's just the very all-ins with banelings and speedlings that destroy me, even before you manage to start building spines to defend your expansion.
I was having the same problem, ZvZ turned into ling bane all ins, 1414 openers into rallied lings to my base.. -.- was so frustrating, I cracked it in teh end though.
If you see them open 1414 get your gas when you get your pool (still FE), your first 50gas goes on bane nest, then you just produce banelings in relation to his zergling count.. as there slow you have to place them in mineral lines and tight places to make sure they get the zerglings incase of a run by.
Also, if they keep coming with banelings, after the first few banelings you make, throw down a roach warren.. saved me so many times.
Not lost to a ling all in since, if you don't see speed being upgraded at the pool then cancel the bane nest as it probably means an early roach push, which just means either more spines or get roaches your self, can afford 5 normally with the initial first gas.
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i think with the new patch coming this build will still be viable, but you will need to drone scout very early so you can adapt to any sort of early 2 gate pressure. as long as you scout it before you have to decide if you want to drop the hatch you can just pool first and make roaches as you normally would against a build like that. and if you see him go gateway gas, then you can just proceed as normal. i do the same thing in zvz. You might lose a bit of eco because of the earlier scouting, but any form of early pool will be a BO loss for him, not for me, because i just abandon spanishiwa build then and drop a pool + gas and be ahead.
So point is, the build is only weak against builds that 1: kill it outright and 2: are impossible to scout. If it's just the 1st you just go to another build and be perfectly fine.
Still if anyone has any good pointers on how to stop a really well executed grandmaster level cannon rush into 4 gate against this build i would like to hear it
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Bump.
I use this build a LOT in ZvP, but in most of my games, I don't even use infestors. I mostly do multi pronged attack with roach drop while focusing his third. If he's trying to get a deathball I tech to infestors + Hive tech for ultra. It works pretty well tbh :D
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EPT
