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On April 24 2011 21:50 DarKFoRcE wrote:Recently i have been experimenting a bit with baneling drops / infestor play in ZvP. While i dont like your starting build order, the midgame plan could have potential. Here is a replay against some decent european P (underdark) where i open normal 14g14p into exp and then get a few spine crawlers later to be somewhat save against small random gateway pushes: http://www.team-alternate.de/?s=download&id=665im still experimenting with timings on buildings etc. but right now to me it looks like its better to just get one evo chamber for quick +2 melee attack, because then banelings 1 hit workers. the armor upgrades dont seem to be that important to me. This build is definitely alot better on maps where you can use your initial spine crawlers to secure a third at least somewhat.
I had been doing ling/baneling 15 pool/15 gas into expansion with +1 melee and carapace and a third before a lair, but I agree a tightened +2 attack baneling drops gameplan might be of great use in ZvP.
I had thought carapace was important to negate 2 shotting by zealots, but weakening a protoss economy when a 50/25 unit can kill 2-10 workers opens up so many possibilities.
The new thought on protoss simcity wallins with cannons makes drops only more attractive because of lack of surface area for probes to escape.
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Has anyone else been having a very hard time with opponents who go muta against this? I've found the late gas means op can get a bunch of mutas before you have any tech finished. then with the mutas you can't scout, can't attack, can't expand, and cant ever catch up to the muta cloud.
Queens and spore crawlers can't really defend against careful harass as mutas are so much faster. Has anyone else been having this problem, and has anyone found a way around it? I'm sure 'm missing something, but from my experience this build just does't work in zvz if your op goes muta.
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Neural parasite is seriously the best fun anyone can have in a game of StarCraft.
spfeokspfgoksgrpok. Been using this build kinda, just more the ethic of late gas to get more drones early on. If you see pressure, throw down spine crawlers, but you don't really need to have spine crawlers in your plan specifically if you want to scare them with lings instead. I've found it has the same effect.
Drops are painful though, so many some spines in mineral lines etc later on in the game, but that's a given really...
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Dear Darkforce, thank you for continuing to post.. despite all the ignorant people on this forum. Your continued analysis and discussion of this (and many other) strategies is ONLY helping SC2 move forward.
I would also like to say this:
Just because YOU beat someone on the ladder who uses this build, doesn't mean a damn thing. The same applies for people using this build. Spanish has used this build to great success due to him being a pretty skilled player, the build fitting his playstyle, and him being so incredibly familiar with the build and all possible timings and variations.
Before you judge the effectiveness of this build so harshly, perhaps realize that the people who are utilizing it on the ladder are not only much less skilled than Spanish, but also MUCH less familiar with this build itself, and thus executing it poorly.
TLDR;
Thanks Darkforce for being a baller.
And don't talk shit about how you beat kid's on the ladder who use this build.. instead how about you play Spanishiwa and see how well you do against him before you start spraying on TL?
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On April 25 2011 01:50 General_Winter wrote:
Has anyone else been having a very hard time with opponents who go muta against this? I've found the late gas means op can get a bunch of mutas before you have any tech finished. then with the mutas you can't scout, can't attack, can't expand, and cant ever catch up to the muta cloud.
Queens and spore crawlers can't really defend against careful harass as mutas are so much faster. Has anyone else been having this problem, and has anyone found a way around it? I'm sure 'm missing something, but from my experience this build just does't work in zvz if your op goes muta.
Queen + Infestor tends to do the trick for me. With two queens for each base and some carefully placed spores you should be in good shape. You can move out if you have infestors and if it's that big a threat throw down a hydra den or spire.
Certainly don't prevent yourself from getting a spire at all because the mid-late game laid out by Spanishiwa is ling + baneling.
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On April 25 2011 02:02 Flexx wrote:
Dear Darkforce, thank you for continuing to post.. despite all the ignorant people on this forum. Your continued analysis and discussion of this (and many other) strategies is ONLY helping SC2 move forward.
I would also like to say this:
Just because YOU beat someone on the ladder who uses this build, doesn't mean a damn thing. The same applies for people using this build. Spanish has used this build to great success due to him being a pretty skilled player, the build fitting his playstyle, and him being so incredibly familiar with the build and all possible timings and variations.
Before you judge the effectiveness of this build so harshly, perhaps realize that the people who are utilizing it on the ladder are not only much less skilled than Spanish, but also MUCH less familiar with this build itself, and thus executing it poorly.
TLDR;
Thanks Darkforce for being a baller.
And don't talk shit about how you beat kid's on the ladder who use this build.. instead how about you play Spanishiwa and see how well you do against him before you start spraying on TL?
lol fuck off dick head. He's been giving good explanations to why he doesn't like the build. If you can't be arsed to read through the multiple posts where he's explained why he doesn't like it in detail and reply with something that's relevant. You should fuck off and not spoil it for the rest of us who want to read what he has to say.
User was warned for this post
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Awesome and amazing build... I really like it. Just have to get my mechanics down for it. It feels natural.. and gives awesome economic power.
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On April 25 2011 01:50 General_Winter wrote:
Has anyone else been having a very hard time with opponents who go muta against this? I've found the late gas means op can get a bunch of mutas before you have any tech finished. then with the mutas you can't scout, can't attack, can't expand, and cant ever catch up to the muta cloud.
Queens and spore crawlers can't really defend against careful harass as mutas are so much faster. Has anyone else been having this problem, and has anyone found a way around it? I'm sure 'm missing something, but from my experience this build just does't work in zvz if your op goes muta.
Mutalisks only work until the infestors are out. 4 or 5 Infestors can kill as many mutalisks as fungal covers and with infested terrans they can also provide some cover if the mutalisks are spread (though i haven't seen magic boxed mutalisks in ZvZ yet).
My record were 24 Mutalisks killed by 4 infestors because he target fired a queen that was running away and all his mutalisks clumped together.
There is a small timing window where Mutalisks work against the spanishiwa style if you go straight to mutalisks (with mutalisks popping at 9:00), but after that window it's very risky, get caught out of position once and you lose all your mutalisks. Mutalisks can still be used defensively against drops, kill runbys and to maintain map control, you just can't use them for harass without the risk of losing them all without killing anything. It's also a big gas investment that puts you back in tech, so you have to transition away from it quickly.
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recently spanishiwa got earlier gas in case opponent FE'd super early .. also built speedlings instead of spines (supported by an early 3rd hatch for larvae)
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Don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, but in one of mr Bitter's 12 weeks with the pros, specifically the episode "TLO talks Infestors" TLO mentions taking a late gas, after holding off 2rax and getting 4 queens. The underlying logic is still there. Not taking any credit away from Spanishiwa, just saying the underlying logic is sound.
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On April 25 2011 23:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
recently spanishiwa got earlier gas in case opponent FE'd super early .. also built speedlings instead of spines (supported by an early 3rd hatch for larvae)
This brings up what is possibly considered one of the biggest flaws to the build as done verbatim: how do you apply pressure to a player who has went for a fast third as Protoss after scouting the no-gas build?
I think the real question as to the long-term viability of this build in that match-up is how late you can get the gas while still applying pressure combined with how early can you scout to determine that they are going for that really fast third base to try to force a cancel or deal economic damage to put him back.
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On April 26 2011 00:10 Nyarlathotep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 23:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
recently spanishiwa got earlier gas in case opponent FE'd super early .. also built speedlings instead of spines (supported by an early 3rd hatch for larvae) This brings up what is possibly considered one of the biggest flaws to the build as done verbatim: how do you apply pressure to a player who has went for a fast third as Protoss after scouting the no-gas build? I think the real question as to the long-term viability of this build in that match-up is how late you can get the gas while still applying pressure combined with how early can you scout to determine that they are going for that really fast third base to try to force a cancel or deal economic damage to put him back.
i don't think getting that 100 gas is too much an issue economically if you pull of drones, however building speedlings is an issue, because it consumes too much larvae, so spanish's logic is: i am not gonna build speedlings, so i don't need that speed upgrade.
A way to overcome the larvae shortness is an early 3rd (speaking of real early at the 3:30 ..5 minute mark). This way you can keep pumping drones while keeping the potential to pump some 20 lings inbetween. This works well on maps with a nearby 3rd such as metapolis. And that's exactly what spanish did in a recent youtube VOD.
Personally i even do this anytime (very early macro hatch), just cancel it in case of massive early aggression (korean 4 gate, early marine pushes). This allows to pool larvae and ressources and just build army if you are attacked or scout an opportunity, else you may spend this on drones once you feel save. In general i feel the possibility to delay production by pooling larvae and minerals until it is save to drone or army is needed, is somewhat underused (works best with a macro hatch). Also enables safe teching: just start tech early, in case you are rushed, cancel stuff and build army as needed. If you are not rushed .. good :-D. Having >8 larva in stock does help to employ this style.
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I like this build, and it has worked for me, ( I am a bronze player ) but i watched my replays, and i realised that i missed the whole point of the build, evnthough i understood why he does this build.
my drone count was sometime like 10 lower than my opponent, and the point of the build is to get more econemy. I think even though my success was big with this build. I will try to do a more standard 100 gas speedling expand build. When i get better at playing the standard zerg, i will develope my own style.
thankyou spanishiwa for inpiring so many ppl to be more creative with the zergys, but i think i am not ready for the step.
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On April 23 2011 10:02 arbitrageur wrote:Nope. There've been 5 DT builds in the GSL since Season 1. Every single one have used 2 Sentries. It drastically increases the tricking power (against bad opponents, at least - even good ones, e.g. MC vs July). Besides, 2 DTs vs 3 DTs, there's no big difference. If you catch him off guard you catch him off guard, 2 is going to win you the game anyway. Can you link to a replay of this. I've seen 5+ DT builds in casts where the twilight is made as early as is physically possible and the warpin is always after 7:15. I meant it was after 6:15 if it's a dt 3 gate expo, yes it's easy before 5:50 if it's just 1 gate, but it's still butt easy to read because he won't be adding any more sentries. It will be dt or stargatge 100% of the time (you know he's 2 gas). Show nested quote +but most of the time you choose to build a 3rd gate and zealots to push out lings then expand. Ya exactly the overwhelming majority of DT builds has the nexus after 6:15 because they add gates prior to expanding (see every DT bulid in the GSL thus far), so the late nexus isn'ta necessary condition but it's somethign to alert you to pay close attention to the sentry count. Show nested quote +1 spore at each base isn't going to do much except allow P to double expand and deny your 3rd. No. You make an overseer when you see he's DTs at the same time as your desire to a take a 3rd. You're way ahead because you have 50 drones aleady as you knew he was DTs or phoenix and neither require units. He has 2 base with 40 probes and crap tech. Every pro that went spore in GSL got a massive massive lead, and I have a 100% win rate vs DTs using 2 spores - i get so ridiculously far ahead. No 3rd is delayed, only the extra gas cost is incyurred for overseer when you want to expo. Show nested quote +Also, using the same build order I can get 3 phoenixes out at 6:50, and not wait for the 4th to push out and just get free OL kills, regardless of the presence of spores. This has nothing to do with the feasibility of pre-spores. You are inevitably going to lose OLs with spores or not.. The spores are for the q ueens and drones, and for the OLs that are in range of the spore by the time the phoenixes get to your base. Show nested quote +Speaking for DTs, they're troublesome enough, and the only real remedy is an overseer, which this build neglects. I disagree. Overseer is fine. Spore is fine as well. I have a 100% win rate vs DT builds at the top 1000 level, because of 1 spore in each base. Spores have been used in GSL two times in Code S vs DT builds, one of those being nestea. It's completely debatable. Overseer needs you to get a decently timed lair, which you may want to delay for econ or whatever, although with the spore option if he is DT he's going to cause you to make an overseer in addition to spores which is wasted gas (no delay of 3rd, just wasted gas). I'm proposing that spores are better, as in many cases you cannot deduce DTs and remove phoenix from his build range, and without 1 spore in each base phoenix will do huge huge huge damage unless you have 5 queens. I dunno perhaps 5 queens and 1 overseer is better. Albeit I'm not exactly sure of the metagame at present w.r.t expo while going phoenix and the % of protoss that do it. If it's very very small then overseer will always be better, and you are right.
Good points and I really appreciate the thought you put into them. Yeah, it is debatable, so I'll just give you the info so you can decide for yourself. Here's a link, watch the clock:
http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/282571439
Jump to 9 minutes for the short version. Now my question is (simply because I don't know), where are you at that point in the game?
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On April 25 2011 02:27 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 02:02 Flexx wrote:
Dear Darkforce, thank you for continuing to post.. despite all the ignorant people on this forum. Your continued analysis and discussion of this (and many other) strategies is ONLY helping SC2 move forward.
I would also like to say this:
Just because YOU beat someone on the ladder who uses this build, doesn't mean a damn thing. The same applies for people using this build. Spanish has used this build to great success due to him being a pretty skilled player, the build fitting his playstyle, and him being so incredibly familiar with the build and all possible timings and variations.
Before you judge the effectiveness of this build so harshly, perhaps realize that the people who are utilizing it on the ladder are not only much less skilled than Spanish, but also MUCH less familiar with this build itself, and thus executing it poorly.
TLDR;
Thanks Darkforce for being a baller.
And don't talk shit about how you beat kid's on the ladder who use this build.. instead how about you play Spanishiwa and see how well you do against him before you start spraying on TL? lol fuck off dick head. He's been giving good explanations to why he doesn't like the build. If you can't be arsed to read through the multiple posts where he's explained why he doesn't like it in detail and reply with something that's relevant. You should fuck off and not spoil it for the rest of us who want to read what he has to say. User was warned for this post
Reading.. do you do it my friend?
You do realize that I completely agree with everything Darkforce has said.. and I in fact worship him as a Z player and forum contributer.
I'm not referring to DF when I say that random people who play this game, have no ability to judge the effectiveness of a build based on their insignificant ladder experience using/against it.
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I'm worried about how the new PTR patch changes will affect this build.
Will 2gate become too hard to stop with hatch first?
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On April 26 2011 14:22 archon256 wrote:
I'm worried about how the new PTR patch changes will affect this build.
Will 2gate become too hard to stop with hatch first?
I wanted to reply with a longer version of "no, it can't", but thinking about it, there might actually be a timing window where chronoboosted 2gate might do some damage before the queens or crawlers are out and where the 2 gate can actually prevent spine crawlers from getting up. 5 seconds are quite a lot of time, especially on smaller 2 player maps or close positions.
I think when i get home i have to test around with some timings, maybe it's better to go 13 (prevent pylon block) or 15 hatch and 14 pool instead, just to get everything a few seconds earlier.
I think after the patch we will see a wave of proxy 2gate however.
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Looking at your games, any reason why you don't use banelings spanishiwa? I haven't watched too many but I don't recall seeing any banelings being made, even with a baneling nest set up. There are a lot of opportunities on maps with big air spaces (or weird cliff things like Shattered temples) that make a baneling drop so effective and hard to stop when you create a distraction like a separate ling drop or a minor engagement. The rewards can be so big I find; killing like half their probes?
Of course, the players you play are way better. Still, fungal+bling drops is quite strong. Is it the gas cost?
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On April 26 2011 15:18 dave333 wrote:
Looking at your games, any reason why you don't use banelings spanishiwa? I haven't watched too many but I don't recall seeing any banelings being made, even with a baneling nest set up. There are a lot of opportunities on maps with big air spaces (or weird cliff things like Shattered temples) that make a baneling drop so effective and hard to stop when you create a distraction like a separate ling drop or a minor engagement. The rewards can be so big I find; killing like half their probes?
Of course, the players you play are way better. Still, fungal+bling drops is quite strong. Is it the gas cost?
IIRC he uses banelings very late and seems to prefer to use the early gas for tech and infestors, so it might be the gas cost that prevents him to get banelings. They are not exactly cheap.
In my games i have only used banelings against Zealot heavy Protoss (they usually are Zealot heavy because i get a _ton_ of speedlings) as in most other situations, banelings seem to be unneccessary, infestors can take their role and they can be used repeatedly.
Baneling drops however are really very strong, but getting an overlord in the mineral line is not that easy on many maps if the opponent watches his minimap (as all people in Spanishiwas region do).
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On April 26 2011 15:04 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 14:22 archon256 wrote:
I'm worried about how the new PTR patch changes will affect this build.
Will 2gate become too hard to stop with hatch first? I wanted to reply with a longer version of "no, it can't", but thinking about it, there might actually be a timing window where chronoboosted 2gate might do some damage before the queens or crawlers are out and where the 2 gate can actually prevent spine crawlers from getting up. 5 seconds are quite a lot of time, especially on smaller 2 player maps or close positions. I think when i get home i have to test around with some timings, maybe it's better to go 13 (prevent pylon block) or 15 hatch and 14 pool instead, just to get everything a few seconds earlier. I think after the patch we will see a wave of proxy 2gate however.
before the zealot build time increasement, going hatch first was an immidiate BO loss vs 2 gate. im pretty sure it still is now. even against just 1 gate against 10 you usually lost too much.
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EPT
