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I find it interesting how there have been so many suggestions from people recommending that the build should be tweaked to get gas earlier for one purpose or another. You will lose a lot of the benefits that the build provides if you get gas "just for metabolic boost". Even by getting gas at 30 you weaken the build's macro explosion potential, severely.
Remember that the key benefit to this build is getting 32 drones on minerals as fast as possible, thus providing you with a sick mineral income of ~1250 per minute very early.
An easy thing to miss for newer players especially, is not just realizing how important drone count is, but how important it is to get them early.
If you get gas earlier and rely more on speedlings for defense instead of queens/spines, the result could be something like having an average of 8 less drones for 3 minutes, meaning you lose 960 minerals.
If you decide to get gas at the same time as pool, fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking your going to reap the same benefits as The Ice Fisher.
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On April 21 2011 22:45 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
I find it interesting how there have been so many suggestions from people recommending that the build should be tweaked to get gas earlier for one purpose or another. You will lose a lot of the benefits that the build provides if you get gas "just for metabolic boost". Even by getting gas at 30 you weaken the build's macro explosion potential, severely.
Remember that the key benefit to this build is getting 32 drones on minerals as fast as possible, thus providing you with a sick mineral income of ~1250 per minute very early.
An easy thing to miss for newer players especially, is not just realizing how important drone count is, but how important it is to get them early.
If you get gas earlier and rely more on speedlings for defense instead of queens/spines, the result could be something like having an average of 8 less drones for 3 minutes, meaning you lose 960 minerals.
If you decide to get gas at the same time as pool, fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking your going to reap the same benefits as The Ice Fisher.
Using your maths we get 1094 minerals from 28 harvesters, one used to build an extractor and 3 on gas. Thats 156 minerals per minute less. The trade off? Fast lings that allow you to exert some map control and don't approach angry marines like crippled donkies. It's up to each player to decide what trade offs they are willing to accept.
I don't think Spanishiwa laid down hard and fast rules, he set out a framework. I personally think tweaking 100gas out of it is worthwhile and I started doing it before the discussions about it started here. It's a variant and I think you overstate how it affects the macro potential of the build.
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On April 21 2011 23:24 Deja Thoris wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 22:45 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
I find it interesting how there have been so many suggestions from people recommending that the build should be tweaked to get gas earlier for one purpose or another. You will lose a lot of the benefits that the build provides if you get gas "just for metabolic boost". Even by getting gas at 30 you weaken the build's macro explosion potential, severely.
Remember that the key benefit to this build is getting 32 drones on minerals as fast as possible, thus providing you with a sick mineral income of ~1250 per minute very early.
An easy thing to miss for newer players especially, is not just realizing how important drone count is, but how important it is to get them early.
If you get gas earlier and rely more on speedlings for defense instead of queens/spines, the result could be something like having an average of 8 less drones for 3 minutes, meaning you lose 960 minerals.
If you decide to get gas at the same time as pool, fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking your going to reap the same benefits as The Ice Fisher. Using your maths we get 1094 minerals from 28 harvesters, one used to build an extractor and 3 on gas. Thats 156 minerals per minute less. The trade off? Fast lings that allow you to exert some map control and don't approach angry marines like crippled donkies. It's up to each player to decide what trade offs they are willing to accept. I don't think Spanishiwa laid down hard and fast rules, he set out a framework. I personally think tweaking 100gas out of it is worthwhile and I started doing it before the discussions about it started here. It's a variant and I think you overstate how it affects the macro potential of the build.
If the plan is to defend and exert map control with speedlings, that also means more larva devoted to lings instead of drones, which then defeats the purpose, right?
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im not sure you addressed this spanishiwa, but what about protoss going templar, i know you mention darks, but what about them seeing lots of lings and going HT, instead of robo? it synergizes pretty well with a blink opening so i would think that it would be something to watch for...and archons hurt, lots.....and storm....
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On April 21 2011 23:24 Deja Thoris wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 22:45 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
I find it interesting how there have been so many suggestions from people recommending that the build should be tweaked to get gas earlier for one purpose or another. You will lose a lot of the benefits that the build provides if you get gas "just for metabolic boost". Even by getting gas at 30 you weaken the build's macro explosion potential, severely.
Remember that the key benefit to this build is getting 32 drones on minerals as fast as possible, thus providing you with a sick mineral income of ~1250 per minute very early.
An easy thing to miss for newer players especially, is not just realizing how important drone count is, but how important it is to get them early.
If you get gas earlier and rely more on speedlings for defense instead of queens/spines, the result could be something like having an average of 8 less drones for 3 minutes, meaning you lose 960 minerals.
If you decide to get gas at the same time as pool, fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking your going to reap the same benefits as The Ice Fisher. Using your maths we get 1094 minerals from 28 harvesters, one used to build an extractor and 3 on gas. Thats 156 minerals per minute less. The trade off? Fast lings that allow you to exert some map control and don't approach angry marines like crippled donkies. It's up to each player to decide what trade offs they are willing to accept. I don't think Spanishiwa laid down hard and fast rules, he set out a framework. I personally think tweaking 100gas out of it is worthwhile and I started doing it before the discussions about it started here. It's a variant and I think you overstate how it affects the macro potential of the build.
But what do you want to do with those speedlings? For example to see a blue flame drop you don't need to have a xel'naga tower. Well placed overlord is enough. To see if someone doesn't make a fake push you have creep close to half of map, as well as there isn't speedling needed to stand near ramp - normal ling can do that also. I can't see any good use of those early speedlings.
People badly want to get something expensive and not needed at all. I am not sure why. You forget about such a great things like spreading overlords all over the map. But it is easier to point all ovies over hatch and waste 156 minerals per minute for speed.
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I love this build, gonna try this in bronze  . Love the vods on youtube, would like to see more!!
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I assume the map dependance has been discussed, can someone redirect me toward the corresponding post(s). There are over 700 posts, and I really don't feel like reading them all.
Thanx.
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On April 22 2011 01:13 Netto. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 23:24 Deja Thoris wrote:On April 21 2011 22:45 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
I find it interesting how there have been so many suggestions from people recommending that the build should be tweaked to get gas earlier for one purpose or another. You will lose a lot of the benefits that the build provides if you get gas "just for metabolic boost". Even by getting gas at 30 you weaken the build's macro explosion potential, severely.
Remember that the key benefit to this build is getting 32 drones on minerals as fast as possible, thus providing you with a sick mineral income of ~1250 per minute very early.
An easy thing to miss for newer players especially, is not just realizing how important drone count is, but how important it is to get them early.
If you get gas earlier and rely more on speedlings for defense instead of queens/spines, the result could be something like having an average of 8 less drones for 3 minutes, meaning you lose 960 minerals.
If you decide to get gas at the same time as pool, fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking your going to reap the same benefits as The Ice Fisher. Using your maths we get 1094 minerals from 28 harvesters, one used to build an extractor and 3 on gas. Thats 156 minerals per minute less. The trade off? Fast lings that allow you to exert some map control and don't approach angry marines like crippled donkies. It's up to each player to decide what trade offs they are willing to accept. I don't think Spanishiwa laid down hard and fast rules, he set out a framework. I personally think tweaking 100gas out of it is worthwhile and I started doing it before the discussions about it started here. It's a variant and I think you overstate how it affects the macro potential of the build. But what do you want to do with those speedlings? For example to see a blue flame drop you don't need to have a xel'naga tower. Well placed overlord is enough. To see if someone doesn't make a fake push you have creep close to half of map, as well as there isn't speedling needed to stand near ramp - normal ling can do that also. I can't see any good use of those early speedlings. People badly want to get something expensive and not needed at all. I am not sure why. You forget about such a great things like spreading overlords all over the map. But it is easier to point all ovies over hatch and waste 156 minerals per minute for speed.
Well, the basic idea of the build is get a mineral heavy economy and defend using mineral only units (spine, spore, queen, slowlings). One of the major problems of the build is, that there is no offensive potential in the beginning, this can be abused by the opponent (by going for economy even more).
The cost of a 17 speed with 3 drone pull off after 100 gas will cost you ~ same as a spine crawler. However you get the possibility to play agressively in case your opponent is too greedy, you may delay his expansion and harrass + scout. Speedlings are not for defense then. And you have the option to build more of them just in case there is an opportunity ..
You still rely on the basic idea of playing mineral heavy
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On April 22 2011 02:25 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 01:13 Netto. wrote:On April 21 2011 23:24 Deja Thoris wrote:On April 21 2011 22:45 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
I find it interesting how there have been so many suggestions from people recommending that the build should be tweaked to get gas earlier for one purpose or another. You will lose a lot of the benefits that the build provides if you get gas "just for metabolic boost". Even by getting gas at 30 you weaken the build's macro explosion potential, severely.
Remember that the key benefit to this build is getting 32 drones on minerals as fast as possible, thus providing you with a sick mineral income of ~1250 per minute very early.
An easy thing to miss for newer players especially, is not just realizing how important drone count is, but how important it is to get them early.
If you get gas earlier and rely more on speedlings for defense instead of queens/spines, the result could be something like having an average of 8 less drones for 3 minutes, meaning you lose 960 minerals.
If you decide to get gas at the same time as pool, fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking your going to reap the same benefits as The Ice Fisher. Using your maths we get 1094 minerals from 28 harvesters, one used to build an extractor and 3 on gas. Thats 156 minerals per minute less. The trade off? Fast lings that allow you to exert some map control and don't approach angry marines like crippled donkies. It's up to each player to decide what trade offs they are willing to accept. I don't think Spanishiwa laid down hard and fast rules, he set out a framework. I personally think tweaking 100gas out of it is worthwhile and I started doing it before the discussions about it started here. It's a variant and I think you overstate how it affects the macro potential of the build. But what do you want to do with those speedlings? For example to see a blue flame drop you don't need to have a xel'naga tower. Well placed overlord is enough. To see if someone doesn't make a fake push you have creep close to half of map, as well as there isn't speedling needed to stand near ramp - normal ling can do that also. I can't see any good use of those early speedlings. People badly want to get something expensive and not needed at all. I am not sure why. You forget about such a great things like spreading overlords all over the map. But it is easier to point all ovies over hatch and waste 156 minerals per minute for speed. Well, the basic idea of the build is get a mineral heavy economy and defend using mineral only units (spine, spore, queen, slowlings). One of the major problems of the build is, that there is no offensive potential in the beginning, this can be abused by the opponent (by going for economy even more). The cost of a 17 speed with 3 drone pull off after 100 gas will cost you ~ same as a spine crawler. However you get the possibility to play agressively in case your opponent is too greedy, you may delay his expansion and harrass + scout. Speedlings are not for defense then. And you have the option to build more of them just in case there is an opportunity .. You still rely on the basic idea of playing mineral heavy
Isn't the point to use larva on drones, instead of just being "mineral heavy" ? I just find that being able to saturate quickly is such an advantage, and is what distinguished it from any other build
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On April 21 2011 23:24 Deja Thoris wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2011 22:45 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
I find it interesting how there have been so many suggestions from people recommending that the build should be tweaked to get gas earlier for one purpose or another. You will lose a lot of the benefits that the build provides if you get gas "just for metabolic boost". Even by getting gas at 30 you weaken the build's macro explosion potential, severely.
Remember that the key benefit to this build is getting 32 drones on minerals as fast as possible, thus providing you with a sick mineral income of ~1250 per minute very early.
An easy thing to miss for newer players especially, is not just realizing how important drone count is, but how important it is to get them early.
If you get gas earlier and rely more on speedlings for defense instead of queens/spines, the result could be something like having an average of 8 less drones for 3 minutes, meaning you lose 960 minerals.
If you decide to get gas at the same time as pool, fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking your going to reap the same benefits as The Ice Fisher. Using your maths we get 1094 minerals from 28 harvesters, one used to build an extractor and 3 on gas. Thats 156 minerals per minute less. The trade off? Fast lings that allow you to exert some map control and don't approach angry marines like crippled donkies. It's up to each player to decide what trade offs they are willing to accept. I don't think Spanishiwa laid down hard and fast rules, he set out a framework. I personally think tweaking 100gas out of it is worthwhile and I started doing it before the discussions about it started here. It's a variant and I think you overstate how it affects the macro potential of the build.
No, you are overlooking the compounding aspect of having a higher earlier income. More minerals means more drones, ovies, queens, spines. There is an exponential factor at play here that you are completely missing.
A question hopefully will explain it better than anything...
If at 14 supply, you put 3 drones on gas and sacrifice one to make an extractor, how many less drones will you have by the 8 minute mark? By your logic you are only losing 156 minerals per minute, but the cost will be much more than that.
Further complicating matters are other hits to your economy that you aren't even considering. Because you had less of an early income, you wont have the money for spines and queens, and you will more easily be forced to produce lings to fend off early pressure, wasting larvae that could have been drones.
Yeah, I totally agree that its often worth deviating from the build to get gas for specific threats (mass reapers!), but you seem blind to the real cost of early gas, and thus blind to the very thing that makes this build so strong to begin with.
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Speedlings make up for those "lost minerals" by being much more cost-effective and having the potential to deal damage. Besides, you're gonna need to get the upgrade eventually so it's just gonna slow your economy a bit. Even if your opponent cannot attack into your spine crawlers, they can still freely warnder around the map, poke around, kill creep tumors, kill overlords, destroy destructible rocks for their future expansions, or build pylons in random places such as your favorite spot to take a third and just be as annoying as they want because they can just run away if your slow lings ever try to stop him.
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On April 22 2011 08:31 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Speedlings make up for those "lost minerals" by being much more cost-effective and having the potential to deal damage. Besides, you're gonna need to get the upgrade eventually so it's just gonna slow your economy a bit. Even if your opponent cannot attack into your spine crawlers, they can still freely warnder around the map, poke around, kill creep tumors, kill overlords, destroy destructible rocks for their future expansions, or build pylons in random places such as your favorite spot to take a third and just be as annoying as they want because they can just run away if your slow lings ever try to stop him.
Go ahead and get gas but don't make these outrageous claims that getting 100 gas is just going to slow your economy a bit. A more extreme but similar argument would be to say that 9 pool vs 14 pool "is just going to slow your economy a bit".
I think those that understand the basic principle of compound interest will intrinsically understand, or at least have a good idea that a loss in early income can have huge effects later on.
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On April 22 2011 08:53 Johnny_Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 08:31 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Speedlings make up for those "lost minerals" by being much more cost-effective and having the potential to deal damage. Besides, you're gonna need to get the upgrade eventually so it's just gonna slow your economy a bit. Even if your opponent cannot attack into your spine crawlers, they can still freely warnder around the map, poke around, kill creep tumors, kill overlords, destroy destructible rocks for their future expansions, or build pylons in random places such as your favorite spot to take a third and just be as annoying as they want because they can just run away if your slow lings ever try to stop him. Go ahead and get gas but don't make these outrageous claims that getting 100 gas is just going to slow your economy a bit. A more extreme but similar argument would be to say that 9 pool vs 14 pool "is just going to slow your economy a bit". I think those that understand the basic principle of compound interest will intrinsically understand, or at least have a good idea that a loss in early income can have huge effects later on.
Except there is also diminishing return when you reach a certain point of drone saturation so having those 3 drones mine gas for 100 gas would only cause you to reach that point later. Unless you immediately expand upon reaching that point, your expoential growth doesn't make a difference in the long run. Furthermore, your opponent can also afford to be more greedy knowing that you will have no offensive potential.
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On April 22 2011 08:53 Johnny_Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 08:31 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Speedlings make up for those "lost minerals" by being much more cost-effective and having the potential to deal damage. Besides, you're gonna need to get the upgrade eventually so it's just gonna slow your economy a bit. Even if your opponent cannot attack into your spine crawlers, they can still freely warnder around the map, poke around, kill creep tumors, kill overlords, destroy destructible rocks for their future expansions, or build pylons in random places such as your favorite spot to take a third and just be as annoying as they want because they can just run away if your slow lings ever try to stop him. Go ahead and get gas but don't make these outrageous claims that getting 100 gas is just going to slow your economy a bit. A more extreme but similar argument would be to say that 9 pool vs 14 pool "is just going to slow your economy a bit". I think those that understand the basic principle of compound interest will intrinsically understand, or at least have a good idea that a loss in early income can have huge effects later on.
For those that don't know what he's talking about, drones mine minerals which buy drones which mine minerals which buy drones... the faster you get the first drone, the faster you get the second drone, the faster you get the third drone and so on. Your economy is sped up hugely by having early drones on minerals.
I've been thinking about using your huge economy to do a massive switch into roaches, instead of teching up, if you see your opponent getting greedy: most of the time when you go for roaches early (before lair), you don't have enough money and you end up with spare larvae. However, with Spanishiwa's build, I wonder if it would be possible to do a huge switch and spend most/all your larva on roaches (i.e you get a fuckton). Sure, stalkers can kite roaches and forcefields can make their units deal one-way damage - who cares if you have twenty of them against a weak ass army (because of the greediness of toss)?
Btw Johnny I think I'm in your 1v1 division
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On April 21 2011 22:45 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
I find it interesting how there have been so many suggestions from people recommending that the build should be tweaked to get gas earlier for one purpose or another. You will lose a lot of the benefits that the build provides if you get gas "just for metabolic boost". Even by getting gas at 30 you weaken the build's macro explosion potential, severely.
Remember that the key benefit to this build is getting 32 drones on minerals as fast as possible, thus providing you with a sick mineral income of ~1250 per minute very early.
An easy thing to miss for newer players especially, is not just realizing how important drone count is, but how important it is to get them early.
If you get gas earlier and rely more on speedlings for defense instead of queens/spines, the result could be something like having an average of 8 less drones for 3 minutes, meaning you lose 960 minerals.
If you decide to get gas at the same time as pool, fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking your going to reap the same benefits as The Ice Fisher.
You're right that getting even 1 gas early will have a significant impact on economy but I believe there was some discussion on how other races were adapting to this build's lack of early aggression (due to slow lings) by expanding early themselves to put them at even or nearly even in terms of income. Getting 32 drones on minerals early is nice and all but you have to have a way to keep that lead to actually benefit from it. Wouldn't getting gas earlier than 40, not necessarily at the same time as pool, be a step in finding a way to keep that lead?
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Any 3 rax push replays? I cannot handle it coz tons of marine come...
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I'm having huge troubles in ZvZ with this versus any Zerg who basically goes for a fast speedling attack. I really don't know how to defend it and worst of all how to predict this. Can anyone point me on how to deal with this.
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On April 22 2011 18:32 Bleak wrote:
I'm having huge troubles in ZvZ with this versus any Zerg who basically goes for a fast speedling attack. I really don't know how to defend it and worst of all how to predict this. Can anyone point me on how to deal with this.
well mass queens + spines should defend most speedlings, make a spine + a couple lings early if youre scared of it though
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On April 22 2011 18:32 Bleak wrote:
I'm having huge troubles in ZvZ with this versus any Zerg who basically goes for a fast speedling attack. I really don't know how to defend it and worst of all how to predict this. Can anyone point me on how to deal with this.
What I do
What I do is that I go Overpool 18hatch like Spanishiwa mentioned was experimenting with. Not that bad of a economical disadvantage and I don't instantly die to a well executed 7pool.
I assume you can get 2 Queens from your main hatch before any massive Speedling All-Ins so get creep going with the first and block the ramp with the 2 Queens from your main hatchery the moment it's possible. In some cases it's not preferred to use any energy on injects but just save for transfuses.
When your nat is up, make a Spine Crawler as soon as possible and use an Evo chamber or two to reduce the opposing mobility if it's needed. Make more Queens from both the main and the natural hatcheries and more crawlers as time goes on.
All this is done blindly if your opponent hasn't expanded, or if you can scout with Lings that a late expo and a certain early attack tech choice is made.
I'm not exactly sure about Overpool timings, but if you can block with 2 Queens before the Speedling all-in/attack/whatever comes, you should be fine if you execute everything else well.
Differences between Overpool and an early Hatchery
The differences between Overpool 18hatch and 13/16hatch 15pool are that with an early hatchery you get 2 Queens to block the ramp earlier, as well as more energy due to you not needing the creep as you make your 2 Queens from different hatcheries(It's not recommended to inject IMO). You also should get your first Spine crawler earlier as your Natural finishes the same moment/slightly earlier than your pool.
The disadvantages with an early hatcheries are early Spawning Pool timings and that your first lings come late so your Scouting might be forced to be lacking.
The Overpool however secures you from early Spawning Pool timings and it gets the first 4-6 Lings earlier for you to scout with. While it's economy is slightly behind an early hatch build, it has better scouting capabilities and is safer.
The disadvantages of an Overpool -> 18hatchery are that it's slightly behind in economy, it gets 2 Queens blocking the ramp slightly later and it's first Spine Crawler is slightly later as well.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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On April 22 2011 18:38 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 18:32 Bleak wrote:
I'm having huge troubles in ZvZ with this versus any Zerg who basically goes for a fast speedling attack. I really don't know how to defend it and worst of all how to predict this. Can anyone point me on how to deal with this. well mass queens + spines should defend most speedlings, make a spine + a couple lings early if youre scared of it though
Some go for really early pool and by the time they come I only have drones and a queen or two, and they keep rallying while I try to desperately defend but then they kill me.
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EPT
