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On April 22 2011 09:01 AsianEcksDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 08:53 Johnny_Vegas wrote:On April 22 2011 08:31 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Speedlings make up for those "lost minerals" by being much more cost-effective and having the potential to deal damage. Besides, you're gonna need to get the upgrade eventually so it's just gonna slow your economy a bit. Even if your opponent cannot attack into your spine crawlers, they can still freely warnder around the map, poke around, kill creep tumors, kill overlords, destroy destructible rocks for their future expansions, or build pylons in random places such as your favorite spot to take a third and just be as annoying as they want because they can just run away if your slow lings ever try to stop him. Go ahead and get gas but don't make these outrageous claims that getting 100 gas is just going to slow your economy a bit. A more extreme but similar argument would be to say that 9 pool vs 14 pool "is just going to slow your economy a bit". I think those that understand the basic principle of compound interest will intrinsically understand, or at least have a good idea that a loss in early income can have huge effects later on. Except there is also diminishing return when you reach a certain point of drone saturation so having those 3 drones mine gas for 100 gas would only cause you to reach that point later. Unless you immediately expand upon reaching that point, your expoential growth doesn't make a difference in the long run. Furthermore, your opponent can also afford to be more greedy knowing that you will have no offensive potential.
The whole point is to reach that 2 base saturation as soon as possible, then once you hit it, you either expand more, or start making army and tech, or both.
Your argument for the early gas being fine is "you just reach saturation later"?
That's the same of ANY build that isn't the no gas FE.
The entire point of the build is to reach that 2 base saturation as quickly as is possible. That's the goal. Suggesting that isn't a good aim/doesn't matter means you disagree with the philosophy of the build, so obviously you (should) have zero interest in using it.
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Bro thank you much, ever since I started using this build I have won 29/30 games and its just so much fun to play with this style. It also solved my biggest problem of zvz, I haven't lost with this .
THANK YOU SPANISHIWA
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awesome more reason for me to put pressure on using 2 rax FE opening as Terran. I take my first 6 rines and walk around the crawlers and press myself into the gap between two mineral patches (to reduce surface area).
W/o ling speed, I can't be intercepted mid way.
I have been seeing a lot of no gas zergs. I scout and when I see that, I know I will be able to do mass econ damage to force the zerg to make lings (still w/o speed).
This spanishwa strat plays right into my favorite terran opening
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Was watching you on Day9s show "Day[9] Daily #286 - Friendday Wednesday with Spanishiwa" and I must say it was a awesome build. Wonder if there is any chance to get my hands on the game you played vs tQKyo on the Day9 Show. I what to study that game more. ^^
MvH Lucky
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I'm actually having successes with this build playing as T and P. So much fun.
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On April 22 2011 23:21 Garnet wrote:
I'm actually having successes with this build playing as T and P. So much fun.
orly? So like terran CC first, only rines + bunkers until saturated?
How is that working for toss though?
Or are you just saying you like playing against a z who is doing this build 
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On April 23 2011 01:35 vicariouscheese wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 23:21 Garnet wrote:
I'm actually having successes with this build playing as T and P. So much fun. orly? So like terran CC first, only rines + bunkers until saturated? How is that working for toss though? Or are you just saying you like playing against a z who is doing this build
Lol I think he's confused.
I think he means he's playing as Z vs T and P.
The first part of his sentence suggests that: "I'm actually have successes with this build".
As is probably against.
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U say 1 base DT gives you trouble? why?
so easy to read... no nexus at 5:50, not a normal 3 gate expand with 13 gate 14 gas 19 gas and 2 chronos on core. he doesn't move out past 6:15 and he's not even doing the MC 4 gate nexus, cancel nexus (that is down at 6:10). his nexus will be after this and you need an evo at 6:15, for a spore in each base at 7:20, for a DT warp in at 7:15 (they have travel time). At this point (6:15+), if u know hes 2 gas he's either blink stalker stargate or dt. blink comes at 6:50 dt 7:15 4 phoenix 7:20 and VR cheese depending on how many gates he has.... so oyu can just evo at 6:15 and be safe to both phoenix and dt. Very often the dt build will have 2 sentries because this gas can be spared without delaying 2 DTs so he'll get the sentries as they help with tricking the retards out there.. so you can eliminate blink and be sure in your choice of 6:15 EVO for both 4 phoenix at 7:20 and DTs at 7:15!!! If he shows only stalkers and no sentries, DTs are very unlikely because 2 sentries cfan be made without delaying the DTs and help with tricking. So you may wish to cancel the Evo, but this is more a metagame thing. If you assign a very high probability to blink over stargate you may want to cancel evo if you aren't comfortable with holding blink.
Q.E.D.
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On April 22 2011 19:44 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 18:38 arb wrote:On April 22 2011 18:32 Bleak wrote:
I'm having huge troubles in ZvZ with this versus any Zerg who basically goes for a fast speedling attack. I really don't know how to defend it and worst of all how to predict this. Can anyone point me on how to deal with this. well mass queens + spines should defend most speedlings, make a spine + a couple lings early if youre scared of it though Some go for really early pool and by the time they come I only have drones and a queen or two, and they keep rallying while I try to desperately defend but then they kill me.
You've got to scout for an early pool before committing to this. I don't think its possible to hold something like a 10 pool into mass speedling when talking about equally skilled players.
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On April 23 2011 02:02 arbitrageur wrote:
U say 1 base DT gives you trouble? why?
so easy to read... no nexus at 5:50, not a normal 3 gate expand with 13 gate 14 gas 19 gas and 2 chronos on core. he doesn't move out past 6:15 and he's not even doing the MC 4 gate nexus, cancel nexus (that is down at 6:10). his nexus will be after this and you need an evo at 6:15, for a spore in each base at 7:20, for a DT warp in at 7:15 (they have travel time). At this point (6:15+), if u know hes 2 gas he's either blink stalker stargate or dt. blink comes at 6:50 dt 7:15 4 phoenix 7:20 and VR cheese depending on how many gates he has.... so oyu can just evo at 6:15 and be safe to both phoenix and dt. Very often the dt build will have 2 sentries because this gas can be spared without delaying 2 DTs so he'll get the sentries as they help with tricking the retards out there.. so you can eliminate blink and be sure in your choice of 6:15 EVO for both 4 phoenix at 7:20 and DTs at 7:15!!! If he shows only stalkers and no sentries, DTs are very unlikely because 2 sentries cfan be made without delaying the DTs and help with tricking. So you may wish to cancel the Evo, but this is more a metagame thing. If you assign a very high probability to blink over stargate you may want to cancel evo if you aren't comfortable with holding blink.
Q.E.D.
Whoa there. DT builds usually don't include more than 1 sentry, if at all. 3 DTs can come at 6:45 or earlier, will be 2 DT if you get 1 sentry, and you can warp in a 3rd DT a few seconds after the 2 are out. You can also expand before the Dark Shrine finishes, even before 5:50, but most of the time you choose to build a 3rd gate and zealots to push out lings then expand. 1 spore at each base isn't going to do much except allow P to double expand and deny your 3rd. Also, using the same build order I can get 3 phoenixes out at 6:50, and not wait for the 4th to push out and just get free OL kills, regardless of the presence of spores. Speaking for DTs, they're troublesome enough, and the only real remedy is an overseer, which this build neglects.
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I've been using this build the past 2 days and I must say. My game has improved dramatically!
I won 12 of 15 in high diamond. And yes the Lair timing works perfectly to stop any cloak or DT shenanigans. The spines are definitely affordable. The early queens and evo timing is perfect against mass air from any race. And shakuras it works beautifully its almost unfair (due to choke at natural). Ive been up to 50 supply ahead in some games.
The fast hatch and early spines imply mutas. So players turtle up in their base and get AA like phoenixes or thors. I burn immediately through the upgraded sling/festor/ultra tech tree and get immediate map control when infestors pop.
What is beautiful about the build is that it improves your game. It trains your Apm on the constant injects, and tumors. Not to mention with the insane income it really teaches you how to spend like Michael Jackson at a toy store.
Thank you Spanishiwa, you have a new fan!
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Whoa there. DT builds usually don't include more than 1 sentry, if at all.
Nope. There've been 5 DT builds in the GSL since Season 1. Every single one have used 2 Sentries. It drastically increases the tricking power (against bad opponents, at least - even good ones, e.g. MC vs July).
Besides, 2 DTs vs 3 DTs, there's no big difference. If you catch him off guard you catch him off guard, 2 is going to win you the game anyway.
3 DTs can come at 6:45 or earlier, Can you link to a replay of this. I've seen 5+ DT builds in casts where the twilight is made as early as is physically possible and the warpin is always after 7:15.
You can also expand before the Dark Shrine finishes, even before 5:50,
I meant it was after 6:15 if it's a dt 3 gate expo, yes it's easy before 5:50 if it's just 1 gate, but it's still butt easy to read because he won't be adding any more sentries. It will be dt or stargatge 100% of the time (you know he's 2 gas).
but most of the time you choose to build a 3rd gate and zealots to push out lings then expand. Ya exactly the overwhelming majority of DT builds has the nexus after 6:15 because they add gates prior to expanding (see every DT bulid in the GSL thus far), so the late nexus isn'ta necessary condition but it's somethign to alert you to pay close attention to the sentry count.
1 spore at each base isn't going to do much except allow P to double expand and deny your 3rd.
No. You make an overseer when you see he's DTs at the same time as your desire to a take a 3rd. You're way ahead because you have 50 drones aleady as you knew he was DTs or phoenix and neither require units. He has 2 base with 40 probes and crap tech. Every pro that went spore in GSL got a massive massive lead, and I have a 100% win rate vs DTs using 2 spores - i get so ridiculously far ahead. No 3rd is delayed, only the extra gas cost is incyurred for overseer when you want to expo.
Also, using the same build order I can get 3 phoenixes out at 6:50, and not wait for the 4th to push out and just get free OL kills, regardless of the presence of spores.
This has nothing to do with the feasibility of pre-spores. You are inevitably going to lose OLs with spores or not.. The spores are for the q ueens and drones, and for the OLs that are in range of the spore by the time the phoenixes get to your base.
Speaking for DTs, they're troublesome enough, and the only real remedy is an overseer, which this build neglects.
I disagree. Overseer is fine. Spore is fine as well. I have a 100% win rate vs DT builds at the top 1000 level, because of 1 spore in each base. Spores have been used in GSL two times in Code S vs DT builds, one of those being nestea.
It's completely debatable. Overseer needs you to get a decently timed lair, which you may want to delay for econ or whatever, although with the spore option if he is DT he's going to cause you to make an overseer in addition to spores which is wasted gas (no delay of 3rd, just wasted gas).
I'm proposing that spores are better, as in many cases you cannot deduce DTs and remove phoenix from his build range, and without 1 spore in each base phoenix will do huge huge huge damage unless you have 5 queens.
I dunno perhaps 5 queens and 1 overseer is better. Albeit I'm not exactly sure of the metagame at present w.r.t expo while going phoenix and the % of protoss that do it. If it's very very small then overseer will always be better, and you are right.
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So Ive used this build 3 times (I dont 1v1 much) I gotta say I feel very comfortable playing this against P (I won 2 games), but I played vs. a zerg who scouted it and just came at me with speedlings. i lost pretty quick. Now i did forget to throw up a spine at my expo, but the number of lings that came at me I have a hard time seeing it making a difference. So how do you deal with speedlings with this build?
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On April 23 2011 01:39 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 01:35 vicariouscheese wrote:On April 22 2011 23:21 Garnet wrote:
I'm actually having successes with this build playing as T and P. So much fun. orly? So like terran CC first, only rines + bunkers until saturated? How is that working for toss though? Or are you just saying you like playing against a z who is doing this build Lol I think he's confused. I think he means he's playing as Z vs T and P. The first part of his sentence suggests that: "I'm actually have successes with this build". As is probably against.
No I use this build as T and P. 2 Rax into CC with depot walls and fast Forge expand. Obviously countered by mass banelings/ 6 pool but otherwise it works great.
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On April 23 2011 04:20 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 19:44 Bleak wrote:On April 22 2011 18:38 arb wrote:On April 22 2011 18:32 Bleak wrote:
I'm having huge troubles in ZvZ with this versus any Zerg who basically goes for a fast speedling attack. I really don't know how to defend it and worst of all how to predict this. Can anyone point me on how to deal with this. well mass queens + spines should defend most speedlings, make a spine + a couple lings early if youre scared of it though Some go for really early pool and by the time they come I only have drones and a queen or two, and they keep rallying while I try to desperately defend but then they kill me. You've got to scout for an early pool before committing to this. I don't think its possible to hold something like a 10 pool into mass speedling when talking about equally skilled players.
Facing this same exact problem... The other zerg doesn't even have to go early pool, he just have to throw down the pool first. Even when throwing down a spine at the natural exactly when the hatch finishes, you won't have enough time to actually build it before he bashes in your front...
What you have is 1 queen and drones, a little later when your spine in construction is dead, the new queen gets out and is surrounded/killed by the speedlings.
It seems like this early aggression is countering this build pretty efficiently. (playing as Diamond Rank 2 here, so not the greatest, but good enough to see that this is rather problematic)
Scouting it doesn't make a difference as your spines are going down as fast as possible.
This was on Xelnaga though...
Any ideas?
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I love you Spanishiwa. You're my absolute favorite Starcraft player, no matter what race. I've never stomped Protoss before, but with this build they got no chance. I'm only in gold now, but I will move upwards. Thanks for writing this 
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On April 23 2011 22:03 TanX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 04:20 Shadrak wrote:On April 22 2011 19:44 Bleak wrote:On April 22 2011 18:38 arb wrote:On April 22 2011 18:32 Bleak wrote:
I'm having huge troubles in ZvZ with this versus any Zerg who basically goes for a fast speedling attack. I really don't know how to defend it and worst of all how to predict this. Can anyone point me on how to deal with this. well mass queens + spines should defend most speedlings, make a spine + a couple lings early if youre scared of it though Some go for really early pool and by the time they come I only have drones and a queen or two, and they keep rallying while I try to desperately defend but then they kill me. You've got to scout for an early pool before committing to this. I don't think its possible to hold something like a 10 pool into mass speedling when talking about equally skilled players. Facing this same exact problem... The other zerg doesn't even have to go early pool, he just have to throw down the pool first. Even when throwing down a spine at the natural exactly when the hatch finishes, you won't have enough time to actually build it before he bashes in your front... What you have is 1 queen and drones, a little later when your spine in construction is dead, the new queen gets out and is surrounded/killed by the speedlings. It seems like this early aggression is countering this build pretty efficiently. (playing as Diamond Rank 2 here, so not the greatest, but good enough to see that this is rather problematic) Scouting it doesn't make a difference as your spines are going down as fast as possible. This was on Xelnaga though... Any ideas?
A suggestion
With a 13hatch 15pool your Pool should get done slightly after the hatch so you can throw down the Spine as soon as your Pool finishes. You can even prepare the drone already so that the Crawler is going down the second your pool Finishes, alongside with 2 Queens and 4 Lings(with a 17Overlord).
If that's not early enough, just make more Lings. You have 2 Queens blocking the ramp, no drones on your Natural and 2 more Queens making.
You should be able to hold it. If not... Then it's very bad.
My own questions
Versus Zerg:
1. Should I literally rush Ultras(Lair -> Infestation Pit -> Hive when the earlier is 100%) or should I take it slow, get an economy going, defend my 3 bases, get them saturated and then go Ultras?
2. When should I get a Nydus or should I even get a Nydus(I assume yes as Ultras tend to be bad without)?
3. What should I do to hold various Roach attacks on maps with a semi-hard 3rd base(Xel'Naga Caverns mostly, Tal'Darim Altar also.) or should I abandon the plan completely? I don't really know if I can hold 2 fronts against heavy 2base Roach attacks.
4. Should I get my 4th base if my opponent goes for a fast 3rd or should I prepare a timing push against it? Or something else?
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Recently i have been experimenting a bit with baneling drops / infestor play in ZvP. While i dont like your starting build order, the midgame plan could have potential. Here is a replay against some decent european P (underdark) where i open normal 14g14p into exp and then get a few spine crawlers later to be somewhat save against small random gateway pushes:
http://www.team-alternate.de/?s=download&id=665
im still experimenting with timings on buildings etc. but right now to me it looks like its better to just get one evo chamber for quick +2 melee attack, because then banelings 1 hit workers. the armor upgrades dont seem to be that important to me.
This build is definitely alot better on maps where you can use your initial spine crawlers to secure a third at least somewhat.
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On April 24 2011 21:50 DarKFoRcE wrote:Recently i have been experimenting a bit with baneling drops / infestor play in ZvP. While i dont like your starting build order, the midgame plan could have potential. Here is a replay against some decent european P (underdark) where i open normal 14g14p into exp and then get a few spine crawlers later to be somewhat save against small random gateway pushes: http://www.team-alternate.de/?s=download&id=665im still experimenting with timings on buildings etc. but right now to me it looks like its better to just get one evo chamber for quick +2 melee attack, because then banelings 1 hit workers. the armor upgrades dont seem to be that important to me. This build is definitely alot better on maps where you can use your initial spine crawlers to secure a third at least somewhat.
Nice replay
I tried banelings drops on mineral lines myself, and I have some tips (correct me if it's not true) :
-try to make as much drop at the same time (easier on maps like taldarim altar or terminus, with lot of space behind the expo), and if it's possible, try to attack with your main forces some sec before at an undefended position (to make him move his army and loose concentration)
-if he have cannons, put an empty ov to tank the cannon dmg
-if he haven no cannons, a hand of zerling with the banelings is really good (especially if you don't have +2 attack)
-put some static defences/make some troops/watch you have enought free supply, because if your drop succed well, he might all-in you (it's weird, but been put on 12 probes triggers all-in quite often)
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On April 24 2011 03:25 Airact wrote:
[My own questions
Versus Zerg:
1. Should I literally rush Ultras(Lair -> Infestation Pit -> Hive when the earlier is 100%) or should I take it slow, get an economy going, defend my 3 bases, get them saturated and then go Ultras?
2. When should I get a Nydus or should I even get a Nydus(I assume yes as Ultras tend to be bad without)?
3. What should I do to hold various Roach attacks on maps with a semi-hard 3rd base(Xel'Naga Caverns mostly, Tal'Darim Altar also.) or should I abandon the plan completely? I don't really know if I can hold 2 fronts against heavy 2base Roach attacks.
4. Should I get my 4th base if my opponent goes for a fast 3rd or should I prepare a timing push against it? Or something else?
@1 i would not rush to ultra's ultrafast. ultra's take a VERY long time to build, wich makes you extremely vulnerable to big roach attacks. i would rather use that extra gas on infestors in the midgame, to have some extra fungals wich are huge in those midgame roach battles. then as soon as i see him get a lot of infestors too i will get ultra's, because they don't suffer the stun from fungal and have a lot of hp
@2 nydus are best when your opponent is spread thin with his defense so i would start making them around when your opponent is on 3 or 4 bases. if you make 2 at the same time in different bases, chances are high that you will get one up in a base where his army is not.
@3 good scouting to see where he is attacking + good fungals to slow him down so you can get your defense ready (+ his roaches get a lot weaker)
@4 i would prepare a timing push, as you'll most likely be ahead in eco by this time and it will be hard for him to hold on to his 3rd.
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EPT
