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The PTR change will more or less buff this build i think.
You will have to scout very early to check for 2 proxy gating, but once that is discarded then you are in a better position than before, because the patch nerfs most early attacks except proxy gating.
1. bunkers are no longer "free". So whatever damage you take from bunker attacks is deducted from the selling price difference.
2. dts will come later, as they will have to spawn at home and walk through the map or wait longer for warpgate tech.
3. in case of dts or banshees, you now have a better chance at relocating spores to detect or repel air.
4. it is harder to bypass your "defended choke" via warpins because of the pylon nerf.
Anyhow, the build might HAVE to evolve into pool first when 2 gating can't be scouted early enough, but as long as you can get away with using almost all larvae to drone and massing queens to skip mining gas we are working on the same "concept".
What do you think about this Darkforce?
Spanishiwa's oppinion would be nice too 
Well see how it turns out if the changes make it into the game.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 26 2011 22:21 ElPeque.fogata wrote:The PTR change will more or less buff this build i think. You will have to scout very early to check for 2 proxy gating, but once that is discarded then you are in a better position than before, because the patch nerfs most early attacks except proxy gating. 1. bunkers are no longer "free". So whatever damage you take from bunker attacks is deducted from the selling price difference. 2. dts will come later, as they will have to spawn at home and walk through the map or wait longer for warpgate tech. 3. in case of dts or banshees, you now have a better chance at relocating spores to detect or repel air. 4. it is harder to bypass your "defended choke" via warpins because of the pylon nerf. Anyhow, the build might HAVE to evolve into pool first when 2 gating can't be scouted early enough, but as long as you can get away with using almost all larvae to drone and massing queens to skip mining gas we are working on the same "concept". What do you think about this Darkforce? Spanishiwa's oppinion would be nice too Well see how it turns out if the changes make it into the game.
Firstly, 1 is wrong: the bunker rush costs the terran exactly 25 minerals more than it used to if they get the salvage off, it has nothing to do with how much damage it dealt.
Secondly, 2 is also wrong: if you start warp gate at the usual time, throw down your twilight citadel then dark shrine, warp gate will still be done way earlier than the DT's are available. Even if you start it a bit late to get the twilight council down sooner, it'll still be done much earlier than the DT's are ready.
3 is true
4 is true, it is a little bit harder.
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I think a lot of zerg players (playing zerg myself) I run into doing this on the ladder do it wrong. When you see your opponent going for this build you can just bypass any units and invest purely into drones, while still getting your lair at standard time thus having a lead in tech. You can also go for a much faster third on some maps and secure an eco lead. You only have to worry about scouting a bit after the time they go for their 4 gas, by then you'll have an overseer anyways.
Yes they will get ahead in drones early on, but it is nullified by the investement in queens and crawlers to defend against units I won't build, while you can run a small pack of speedlings around the map to keep him wary.
Is this build weaker in ZvZ than in ZvP or ZvT?
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On April 26 2011 22:52 NeonFox wrote:
I think a lot of zerg players (playing zerg myself) I run into doing this on the ladder do it wrong. When you see your opponent going for this build you can just bypass any units and invest purely into drones, while still getting your lair at standard time thus having a lead in tech. You can also go for a much faster third on some maps and secure an eco lead. You only have to worry about scouting a bit after the time they go for their 4 gas, by then you'll have an overseer anyways.
Yes they will get ahead in drones early on, but it is nullified by the investement in queens and crawlers to defend against units I won't build, while you can run a small pack of speedlings around the map to keep him wary.
Is this build weaker in ZvZ than in ZvP or ZvT?
It's not like you have to stay 100% true to the build order in all games. Spanishiwa even mentions in ZvZ, after the hatch/pool it varies heavily depending what your opponent is doing. And you have to scout in all matchups and you don't have to get 4 queens, crawlers or w/e if you scout properly...
But then ofc, this means your not using the 'Ice Fisher' Against roach all-ins, you need a much earlier gas for instance.
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Any suggestions that change the standard way zerg can be played should be welcomed. A lot of drones before gas and spines/queens/creep to defend is a quite fun way to play zergs but nothing more. I don't think it is a revolution in any way as some has suggested. Not at all. More like qxc's ghost first build.
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On April 26 2011 22:21 ElPeque.fogata wrote:The PTR change will more or less buff this build i think. You will have to scout very early to check for 2 proxy gating, but once that is discarded then you are in a better position than before, because the patch nerfs most early attacks except proxy gating. 1. bunkers are no longer "free". So whatever damage you take from bunker attacks is deducted from the selling price difference. 2. dts will come later, as they will have to spawn at home and walk through the map or wait longer for warpgate tech. 3. in case of dts or banshees, you now have a better chance at relocating spores to detect or repel air. 4. it is harder to bypass your "defended choke" via warpins because of the pylon nerf. Anyhow, the build might HAVE to evolve into pool first when 2 gating can't be scouted early enough, but as long as you can get away with using almost all larvae to drone and massing queens to skip mining gas we are working on the same "concept". What do you think about this Darkforce? Spanishiwa's oppinion would be nice too Well see how it turns out if the changes make it into the game.
the problem were small pre warpgate attacks in ZvP, which have now gotten stronger. so i think youre just wrong.
ZvZ and ZvT remain basically unchanged.
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On April 26 2011 16:49 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 15:04 Morfildur wrote:On April 26 2011 14:22 archon256 wrote:
I'm worried about how the new PTR patch changes will affect this build.
Will 2gate become too hard to stop with hatch first? I wanted to reply with a longer version of "no, it can't", but thinking about it, there might actually be a timing window where chronoboosted 2gate might do some damage before the queens or crawlers are out and where the 2 gate can actually prevent spine crawlers from getting up. 5 seconds are quite a lot of time, especially on smaller 2 player maps or close positions. I think when i get home i have to test around with some timings, maybe it's better to go 13 (prevent pylon block) or 15 hatch and 14 pool instead, just to get everything a few seconds earlier. I think after the patch we will see a wave of proxy 2gate however. before the zealot build time increasement, going hatch first was an immidiate BO loss vs 2 gate. im pretty sure it still is now. even against just 1 gate against 10 you usually lost too much.
As DarkForce stated, there was a time when Hatch first was basically a BO loss against 2gate. I seem to recall a few early games (maybe this was back in beta?) when IdrA was losing just because he went for the Hatch and the Protoss did an early 2gate pressure.
And that's not even counting proxy 2gate.
If I remember my timings correctly (and I might well not), we should be seeing the first Zealots at roughly 3:55 for a normal 2gate, and sooner for a proxy, plus whatever the travel time is. So, given the changes, our question logically becomes: can we hold the pressure off of 13 hatch 15 pool.
And if I recall correctly from beta, the answer is... probably yes, but you have to have hero micro, at least for the case of just 2gate pressure. And I believe that the answer is a pretty resounding no to any sort of proxy play, simply due to not being able to apply any significant pressure to the proxy in time
So now, the true test of the build: can it live on? Can it survive? I think it is clear that it will need significant consideration, since we like to avoid BO losses, especially BO losses against something that could very well become super-popular again. So: let us consider the possible solutions, before the patch ruins everything.
1. Earlier Gas/Pool: In exchange for getting an earlier gas/pool, we can apply pressure back to the proxy 2gate and defend easier against the normal 2gate. Downsides being that we have to get gas. And that makes Spanishiwa sad inside. But I'm sure losing is more saddening.
2. ???
Okay. Honestly, I can't think of anything other than an earlier gas/pool. This will be tough.
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This may have been stated earlier in this thread, but wouldn't the appropriate response be to take a fast 3rd in ZvP vs this build? Seems like it's very difficult to be aggressive pre lair using this build. I don't think this entirely negates the build, BUT it certainly demands trimmings of a rather extreme build.
When I say trimming, I mean require some gas early on, but do the same multi queen pump that this strategy demands. The early gas will allow for zergling speed which can keep a fast 3rd in check. Meanwhile it will at least give the implied threat of aggression since zerg can turn it on in an instant SO LONG as they have gas or the threat of gas requiring tech. This is going to require a lot more scouting from the protoss side.
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On April 27 2011 00:57 lambnrice wrote:
This may have been stated earlier in this thread, but wouldn't the appropriate response be to take a fast 3rd in ZvP vs this build? Seems like it's very difficult to be aggressive pre lair using this build. I don't think this entirely negates the build, BUT it certainly demands trimmings of a rather extreme build.
When I say trimming, I mean require some gas early on, but do the same multi queen pump that this strategy demands. The early gas will allow for zergling speed which can keep a fast 3rd in check. Meanwhile it will at least give the implied threat of aggression since zerg can turn it on in an instant SO LONG as they have gas or the threat of gas requiring tech. This is going to require a lot more scouting from the protoss side.
Maybe on the fast third, but one of the main points of this build is multi-pronged harassment once you hit saturation + lair, and defending 3 bases from baneling drops + zergling drops + infestor play + nydus + regular ling pushes is gonna stress a toss big time.
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On April 27 2011 00:30 DarKFoRcE wrote:
the problem were small pre warpgate attacks in ZvP, which have now gotten stronger. so i think youre just wrong.
But small pregate attacks like zealot + 2 stalker or 2 proxygate in zvp will come before a quick speed is done anyway right? Or be as deadly as against any hatch first anyway.
I mean, this build doesn't deviate so much from other builds against this same attacks.
So however you get to survive those first attacks, with this patch, then you will have an easyer time against things like DTs, banshees, or warpin bypasses.
Bad map control and scouting remain a big problem.
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On April 26 2011 22:33 Whitewing wrote:
Secondly, 2 is also wrong: if you start warp gate at the usual time, throw down your twilight citadel then dark shrine, warp gate will still be done way earlier than the DT's are available. Even if you start it a bit late to get the twilight council down sooner, it'll still be done much earlier than the DT's are ready.
Really? I don't play toss, so i'll just believe you in that one.
That would be constantly chronoboosting the warp upgrade right?
Good timming to know.
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On April 27 2011 02:12 ElPeque.fogata wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 22:33 Whitewing wrote:
Secondly, 2 is also wrong: if you start warp gate at the usual time, throw down your twilight citadel then dark shrine, warp gate will still be done way earlier than the DT's are available. Even if you start it a bit late to get the twilight council down sooner, it'll still be done much earlier than the DT's are ready.
Really? I don't play toss, so i'll just believe you in that one. That would be constantly chronoboosting the warp upgrade right? Good timming to know.
Yeah the warpgate change wont affect DT's
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On April 27 2011 02:16 raf3776 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 02:12 ElPeque.fogata wrote:On April 26 2011 22:33 Whitewing wrote:
Secondly, 2 is also wrong: if you start warp gate at the usual time, throw down your twilight citadel then dark shrine, warp gate will still be done way earlier than the DT's are available. Even if you start it a bit late to get the twilight council down sooner, it'll still be done much earlier than the DT's are ready.
Really? I don't play toss, so i'll just believe you in that one. That would be constantly chronoboosting the warp upgrade right? Good timming to know. Yeah the warpgate change wont affect DT's
damnit  .
i hate dts 
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As stated by a few, the new patch changes will make 2-gate pressure too strong to fight off for a hatch-first build (zealots are like, impossible to kill with lings when they have more than 2), and will arrive before a spine can be built at the natural / queen pops.
Decreased burrow time for spores really does nothing - 99% of the damage done by DT / banshees is because I haven't even begun building spores, not because I couldn't relocate them quickly.
In addition, 4-gate was almost a non-issue for Spanishiwa's build, provided you can micro. I'd much rather deal with 4-gates than with 2-gate pressure using this build.
I see this patch as a rather large detriment to this build, and am very disheartened.
In essence, one will have to have scouted the P opponent by ~15 drones to decide whether to drop a pool or a hatch, but I can see stuff like hiding your second gateway as a proxy, in which case scouting gas / chrono on gateway will be a very important indicator. One of the greatest strengths of this build was being able to, like T/P players, pretty much blindly choose a build order without super early scouting, which is now not true, and early scouting will reduce the important early mineral harvest.
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I love this build, and I've been following this thread for a few weeks now. I don't think I've lost a single ZvP doing this build, and I'm 400pt Master League.
However, with the new patch, I think that, like Darkforce said, pre-warpgate pressure will be a bit too strong for this build to handle on some maps.
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Build would seem pretty weak of scouted and protoss has best scout in the game. While Zerg are wasting minerals on spines and spores he just build more probes and more bases and maybe even mass carriers? That would be fun. Finally a way to make Carriers. Either way simple math of blindly build static defense while he doesnt have to should say you are behind. I need to ladder this weekend and see if I run into it.
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On April 27 2011 05:09 tdt wrote:
Build would seem pretty weak of scouted and protoss has best scout in the game. While Zerg are wasting minerals on spines and spores he just build more probes and more bases and maybe even mass carriers? That would be fun. Finally a way to make Carriers. Either way simple math of blindly build static defense while he doesnt have to should say you are behind. I need to ladder this weekend and see if I run into it.
Is this response for real? You realize Spanishiwa and much of the intended audiences of this micro-intensive build are masters or high diamond, and know to build # of spines based on their own scouting. Also, Z macro mechanics is much better than P if completely uncontested. This response is so misinformed it's almost criminal. Mass carriers?
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I started to use this build in ZvP and my win rate goes really high almost to 100% i made some small changes to it as faster gas for speed but in midgame i follow it and its perfect before this i was desperate in ZvP with roach hydra so big thanks to spanishiwa.
380 point master league
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On April 27 2011 06:01 FMJ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 05:09 tdt wrote:
Build would seem pretty weak of scouted and protoss has best scout in the game. While Zerg are wasting minerals on spines and spores he just build more probes and more bases and maybe even mass carriers? That would be fun. Finally a way to make Carriers. Either way simple math of blindly build static defense while he doesnt have to should say you are behind. I need to ladder this weekend and see if I run into it. Is this response for real? You realize Spanishiwa and much of the intended audiences of this micro-intensive build are masters or high diamond, and know to build # of spines based on their own scouting. Also, Z macro mechanics is much better than P if completely uncontested. This response is so misinformed it's almost criminal. Mass carriers?
Carriers part was a joke they still suck. Doesn't matter what you build my point was you can force this build into putting up defenses and expand rapidly too and end up ahead.
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Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 01:50 General_Winter wrote:
Has anyone else been having a very hard time with opponents who go muta against this? I've found the late gas means op can get a bunch of mutas before you have any tech finished. then with the mutas you can't scout, can't attack, can't expand, and cant ever catch up to the muta cloud.
Queens and spore crawlers can't really defend against careful harass as mutas are so much faster. Has anyone else been having this problem, and has anyone found a way around it? I'm sure 'm missing something, but from my experience this build just does't work in zvz if your op goes muta.
Mutalisks only work until the infestors are out. 4 or 5 Infestors can kill as many mutalisks as fungal covers and with infested terrans they can also provide some cover if the mutalisks are spread (though i haven't seen magic boxed mutalisks in ZvZ yet). My record were 24 Mutalisks killed by 4 infestors because he target fired a queen that was running away and all his mutalisks clumped together. There is a small timing window where Mutalisks work against the spanishiwa style if you go straight to mutalisks (with mutalisks popping at 9:00), but after that window it's very risky, get caught out of position once and you lose all your mutalisks. Mutalisks can still be used defensively against drops, kill runbys and to maintain map control, you just can't use them for harass without the risk of losing them all without killing anything. It's also a big gas investment that puts you back in tech, so you have to transition away from it quickly.
As someone who does not have the fastest comp in the world, infestors are kinda useless against mutas, when hes focusing down a queen with like 9 mutas, i transfuse that queen and then fire a fungal growth. unfortunately, due to fungals kinda not instant cast and the stun time only 4 seconds.
i really dont like spamming spores
that muta guy always attacks when he has like 7-8 mutas, he also seems to hide his spire.
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EPT
