EPT[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 38
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lastGame
Canada26 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
He did however say, that the lack of gas for so long makes putting on pressure impossible, which causes the build to tie or fall behind in econ, if your opponent fast expands, which is the dominant playstyle right now, at least in PvZ. | ||
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MagicToto
France19 Posts
On April 21 2011 03:13 Whitewing wrote: He did however say, that the lack of gas for so long makes putting on pressure impossible, which causes the build to tie or fall behind in econ, if your opponent fast expands, which is the dominant playstyle right now, at least in PvZ. Zerg players only go for drones usually, this build is not worst on that point. I think it is actually the contrary, you don't take any gas = you can make a lot of zerglings at the beginning and pressure. You take your gas at @40-50 food which comes quite fast. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On April 21 2011 03:36 MagicToto wrote: Zerg players only go for drones usually, this build is not worst on that point. I think it is actually the contrary, you don't take any gas = you can make a lot of zerglings at the beginning and pressure. You take your gas at @40-50 food which comes quite fast. No, you don't take any gas and your zerglings will be slow as a zealot. You can't pressure with slowlings, they just can't escape very easily and surrounds take longer. And no, zergs don't only go for drones. Having speedlings for map vision is critical versus onebase pushes from protoss. The gas does NOT come fast any time soon. If the protoss/terran/zerg doesn't have to worry about the opponent attacking him, he can just mass probe/scv/drone and outmacro the icefisher who had to get defenses up. A quicker third is essentially the way to play against this. But because ladder Protosses aren't used to doing that, they simply do their 2base or 1base pushes and lose because hell, you just don't attack into spinecrawlers with queens who have transfuses and expect to come out ahead in efficiency. | ||
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On April 21 2011 04:31 Chaosvuistje wrote: No, you don't take any gas and your zerglings will be slow as a zealot. You can't pressure with slowlings, they just can't escape very easily and surrounds take longer. Mis-information alert! Slow Zerglings are speed 2.9531, Zealots 2.25. Not only that, but slow zerglings on creep (which there should be plenty of with this build) are speed 3.83, which is 30% faster than a Stalker. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 21 2011 04:45 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Mis-information alert! Slow Zerglings are speed 2.9531, Zealots 2.25. Not only that, but slow zerglings on creep (which there should be plenty of with this build) are speed 3.83, which is 30% faster than a Stalker. Which only matters defensively. You cannot put on significant pressure, or take map control really, with slow zerglings at a competitive level. It simply does not work. You can defend adequately with them, but not pressure. That was IdrA's point. | ||
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
Simply taking 1 gas around 30 supply alleviates a lot of the weaknesses of this build This helps greatly with things like cloaked banshees, which this build leaves you fairly open to. If you are an excellent player you can easily overcome stuff like that without resorting to getting gas earlier but I found it to be worth it at my skill level. True its no long Spanish's build exactly, but the idea of FEing followed by massive drone+queen+crawler remains the same. You just trade a little economy for a little tech. | ||
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shuckyducky
United States19 Posts
An extractor at a typical time will be scouted with the intention of planting some uncertainty to the player who chooses to respond by fast expanding. Also, if I scout something that calls for a deviation, I've cut out the build time delay in grabbing gas. Anyone else trying this? | ||
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GreatFall
United States1061 Posts
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
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UncleSam
Spain62 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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UncleSam
Spain62 Posts
On April 21 2011 03:13 Whitewing wrote: IdrA had some good things to say about this build on state of the game Could you tell me plz in which episode was that? | ||
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Kar98
Australia924 Posts
On April 21 2011 16:46 UncleSam wrote: Could you tell me plz in which episode was that? Latest SOTG I'm currently having trouble with protoss's that go and block the hatch, but consistantly block it, what do you do in that case? I find that I start floating hard because I just can't get the larva to produce enough stuff and I'm not sure whether to still make drones or lings | ||
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Antego
Canada38 Posts
On April 18 2011 02:30 Paper117 wrote: Just a bronze player here, giving his two cents. I gave this build a shot and have had great success. Down here in Bronze, it's working wonders. Trying to emulate Spanishiwa's style has given me a better way to deal with some of the early aggression while droning hard and also an opportunity to practice my general macro, infestor/ ling play, baneling drops, and mass creep spread. I love it. It's probably going to become my basic approach for a while, and I'll keep practicing it for sure. While I understand that it may have some shortcomings at the very top level of play, I think it's still a useful thing for me to work on. If anything it gives something to work with as I keep refining my mechanics and strategy. The community keeps telling people at my level to just find one build you like and learn it inside and out to get better. As far as I can see, every build has some shortcomings and ways to be exploited. For my purposes, this build is just as good as any other then--right? Please, if Darkforce or any of the more experienced players has an opinion on a better sort of opener for a fledgling player like myself to start with, post it. Are there other, complimentary builds you would recommend I learn and have in my arsenal for situations where this style would be a bad idea? Thank you. I completely agree with you here. Since I incorporated this build in my play and my practice sessions, my mechanic improved dramatically. I humbly feel that this kind of play forces any new player to pushes his macro limit and getting additional amp (without mindlessly spamming which is rubbish of course). I keep more attention to potential supply caps, I creep more and realize the importance of creeping, I consciously try to saturate my mineral patches and when I throw the four extractors I think about replacing the missing drones used for draining gas. That said, I must admit that scouting seems less natural with this build for a beginner (at least for me). Evidently, this matter appears to be less considered in the grander scheme of this debate since most players here, I assume from reading the whole 38 pages, are somewhat above Bronze/Silver league and most likely (at least for the serious post generators) top master players. Consequently, the main concern, for the majority, would be, or course, the metagame aspect of this build. Still, I think for a Bronze player perspective, this build is worth considering for us newcomers in the universe of RTS. Nonetheless, perhaps Darkforce is right about the fact that low level players like us are not used to have a clear and precise plan before acting. I don't know really, but I feel from my plays that Darkforce statement makes lots of sense in that matter. I'd like to say something like “this build is good because (x), (y), (z)” or “this build is bad because (a), (b), (c)” but I'll restrain myself from doing so since I lack experience and, consequently, insight to engage in such a refined conversation. A certain thing though, this build made me a stronger player. On that note, (I don't want to get off topic here so if someone feels like answering the following question please pm me) does anyone here would suggest using a BO that has the same effect as this one (at least as the the way I describe it) On April 21 2011 05:16 Shadrak wrote: [...] Simply taking 1 gas around 30 supply alleviates a lot of the weaknesses of this build This helps greatly with things like cloaked banshees, which this build leaves you fairly open to. If you are an excellent player you can easily overcome stuff like that without resorting to getting gas earlier but I found it to be worth it at my skill level. [...] Does anyone else think it would be a viable twist of the build? | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On April 21 2011 21:16 Antego wrote: Does anyone else think it would be a viable twist of the build? As a toss player, I think this is the first and most important question that has to be figured out by you zergs in the following weeks: how long can you actually delay your gas to be safe against "everything" that your opponent can possibly do, based on the scouting intel you have at any given point in the game. | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
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Cynry
810 Posts
Haven't tried one gas around 30 supply though, but I definitely think that we should keep the idea of a queen+spine defense early game and delaying gas, just not in the extreme way the ice fisher build does. | ||
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jackdaleaper
Philippines1216 Posts
I was doing a variation of this build for ZvT and ZvP before it got popular and had its own thread here and getting some gas earlier than 40 is useful and safer (at least at my Plat level). This allows me to get either roaches , ling speed/banes or an earlier Lair depending on what I scout and still be way ahead on economy. What I do is get 2 of my gas around 28-32 usually and I have enough time to make the proper units for defense or tech up and apply pressure in case the other guy tries to expand. I guess the next step to improve Spanish's build should be to test the timings when the gas can be taken and how many geysers to take so it can still apply pressure to maintain the economy lead. Edit: You also don't really need gas to defend early banshee with this build, just plop down an evo chamber, a spore in each mineral line and build extra queens and you're good. What I really hate though are blue flame drops... | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On April 21 2011 03:13 Whitewing wrote: IdrA had some good things to say about this build on state of the game, specifically that while it isn't complete yet (it feels half finished, but it should, it's a new build), it has some good principles to take away for other zerg builds and styles, and is very very safe against cheese. It's a good build to have in your toolset. He did however say, that the lack of gas for so long makes putting on pressure impossible, which causes the build to tie or fall behind in econ, if your opponent fast expands, which is the dominant playstyle right now, at least in PvZ. Did they talk about the build on STG episode 35 ? Or at one of the older ones? | ||
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