EPT[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 36
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
ReaperX
Hong Kong1758 Posts
| ||
|
basedgab
United States3 Posts
Or can someone point me to a ZvZ build to counter their all in speed/bane attack? (im still noob tho) | ||
|
Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On April 20 2011 00:52 Dragar wrote: I often wonder about using infested terrans from the low ground to guard a nydus against workers against a protoss forge FE. I just am not sure you can get nydus and infestors in time... I love the creativity of this idea! On the surface the gas cost sounds prohibitive to use this as some sort of early nydus tactic. Thinking about the possible uses for this tactic in late game makes my head explode. A burrowed infestor might be able to multiply its value by giving vision for a nydus, then, as you said, using infested terran to protect the nydus. Your tactic opens the door to so many similar great ideas. 99% of the time, during infested raids, the harvestors will flee. Furthermore your opponent is unlikely to send troops to kill a bunch of temporary units, unless something of high value is at risk. Smart players will realize that 5-6 infested terrans aren't going to take down the orbital command, and therefore the ITs will often be ignored if the main army is away. Simply focusing down a refinery or a couple of depots with the ITs could be enough to create the loss of vision needed to spawn a nydus undetected. Or like you said, the nydus could be spawned within vision, causing workers to come off the line to kill it, to be met by several fast-spawning infested terran eggs. Or in his haste, the enemy might clump his workers when moving towards the spawning nydus, leading to some very effective fungal growths! Infested Terran could also do a great job in the obfuscation tactic I talked about in my previous post. Spawning 10 - 15 infested terran in a spread pattern, all throughout an enemy base would have the effect of filling the mini-map with red dots, reducing the likelihood of the nydus worm from being spotted. Even if it is spotted, its 100/100 for another big headache. Your idea of launching the ITs from low ground is pure gold, even for mid-late game. I really think it could lead to some successful nydus attacks. Even without the nydus added, I've gotten good cost effectiveness out of lobbing a mere 5 infested terran up into the main against a terran on Typhon Peaks. That map is situated perfectly for an overlord/infestor to perform some nice harassment on the edge of the main base plateau. When I tried it recently, 5 ITs were able to pick off 3 scvs (building two depots and an armory), as well as a Maurader and 3 marines that streamed in single file at a horrible angle, as they were constrained by the tight packed layout of his own buildings. For some reason this harassment triggered an immediate all out frontal attack by the terran (which I was able to stop), and he never put an scv back on the armory, choosing to cancel it instead (guess he felt I scouted his Thors and abandoned the idea?). | ||
|
rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On April 20 2011 00:59 aderum wrote: I like how some pros are so against this, and yet spanishiwa beats a lot of pros on his stream. And to be fair, he gets beaten, too. | ||
|
Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On April 20 2011 00:46 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Darkforce is 100% correct in that workers can kill not just 1, but 2 nydus worms. Also, the speed and awareness of the highest level players make it far easier for them to react in time to thwart the worms. There are a few factors that complicate the matter however, that some may overlook about nydus worms. Analyzing the cost of Nydus Worms On the surface Nydus worms are extremely expensive, but I'm going to attempt to make the case that their relative cost actually decreases as the zerg army grows larger. Furthermore once zerg is maxed, his options for getting value from his resources become more limited, therefore the supply cap effectively increases the value of nydus. Example 1: 50 - 80 supply + Show Spoiler + At this stage the zerg is probably on 2 bases, perhaps getting a 3rd. His army might only consist of: 10 roaches, 20 splings, for a cost of 1250m/250g. To get a nydus + worm 250m/300g, so 20% the mineral and 120% the gas cost of his army. The relative cost of going nydus here is huge, as compared to army value. You'd actually be spending more gas on the nydus play than your army. This is the all-in scenario that you sometimes would see used versus a Protoss that has walled in a fast expansion with cannons and does not have vision of his entire main. For most other scenarios going nydus is only crippling the value of your army. Example 2: 100 - 150 supply + Show Spoiler + At this stage the zerg is probably on 3 bases, perhaps getting a 4th. His army might consist of: 25 roaches (1875/625), 10 corruptor (1500/1000), 3 infestor (300/450) for a cost of 3675m/2075g. To get a nydus + worm 250m/300g, so 7% the mineral and 14% the gas cost of his army. We can see here, that even building two nydus networks and double nydus worming (for 14% minerals, 28% gas cost of army), the relative cost of nydusing is far less than in Example 1. So while example 1 was a risky near all-in, the costs involved for example 2 become more manageable. Example 3: 200 supply + Show Spoiler + At this stage the zerg is probably on 4 - 6 bases (if he's fortunate) His army might consist of (admittedly a gas rich army, but feasible): 6 Ultralisk (1800/1200) 80 Speedling (2000/0) 10 Infestors (1000/1500) 10 Hydralisk (1000/500) total: 5800 minerals, 3200 gas To get a nydus + worm 250m/300g, so 4% the mineral and 9% the gas cost of his army. Add in the fact that the zerg is maxed and banked resources are hard to utilize effieciently, nydus starts to become more and more attractive. Multiple nydus'es have the potential to provide a lot of value, leveraging the strength of the zerg army, by simply getting them to where they can do the most damage, as well as allowing them to more effectively retreat. Some thoughts on multiple (simultaneous) nydus worms First let me quote the BroodWar beta champion, and chief game designer of Riot Games (League of Legends), Zileas, a brilliant RTS mind whom I've had several discussions with over the years. "Attention is a resource" -Zileas Much like Zileas's favorite tactic of storm dropping mineral lines, nydus worms have the effect of forcing a reaction by your opponent. Multiple worms force multiple reactions. Multiple worms in different locations, spawning at the same time, degrade your opponent's attention exponentially. The payoff here is that the zerg spends far less attention in creating the worms, than the opponent has to spend to deal with them. You can say that at the highest level, players can deal with worms no problem, but conversely high level zergs could also be able to capitalize on the distraction better than lower level zergs, so this skill level argument might cancel each other. Nydus trickery, and cost effectiveness As Darkforce has stated, even 2 nydus can be taken down by workers. There are several techniques that can be employed to reduce that likelihood however. I think these tactics are too often dismissed or ignored when people simply think about nydus as a "gimmick". - positioning nydus in locations where fewer harvesters could attack it, such as adjacent to buildings, and/or combined with multiple nydus adjacent to each other to reduce surface area even further. - the zerg can obfuscate the mini-map by filling it full of either overlords, muta, etc... before spawning the worms. If a group of muta are flying around harassing, and 8 overlords are hovering over different parts of the enemy's vision, he can no longer easily spot the spawning nydus worm using the mini-map alone. - A zerg can also force his nydus worms to spawn by using air units, or drops to create a "safe zone" that also has the effect of reducing the enemy's vision. For example, it is common for muta to pick off buildings on the outskirts of the enemy's base. Once these buildings are destroyed, the zerg can leave 1 muta behind for vision, move his mutas somewhere else, then spawn the nydus(s) in the "cleared" location with relative ease. Ovie drop attacks can work similarly. Back to the muta scenario, for remote bases defended by turrets and a planetary fortress, the scvs are powerless to stop the nydus, as the nydus can be spawned out of range of the PF, causing the scvs to be pulled to kill it, only to be sniped by the muta flock if they approach. - Finally lets look at the cost effectiveness of a nydus worm when 8 workers are pulled from the line to kill it. If 8 workers lose 30 seconds of mining time killing a nydus worm, on an unsaturated base, they are losing (8x20) 160 minerals. But as seen in many games involving nydus, where workers kill the nydus, too many workers are often pulled, and/or the workers do not immediately return to mining (perhaps the zerg harasses/attacks in another location to cause this). If 12 workers spend 60 seconds, that is 480 minerals lost. So we can see that even "failed" nydus attempts can often cause economic damage. Well thought and written. Cost@Time is a general principle and often not considered in arguing, that's why zergling speed is one of the most expensive upgrades in the game (if built early on). However i still think that nydus does not scale well with skill, ofc you can do some trickery, however its capped at a certain level (~low to mid master). Regarding late game nydus .. well, nydus won't hold the death ball :-). In order to be effective, you'll probably need it midgame latest. Anyway there might be undiscovered potential not in "sneaky harrass attacks" but to improve army mobility and quick reinforcements on large maps (needs 2+ networks to be effective). However due to the weak and volatile late game zerg army I am mostly occupied holding off the death ball A-move :-) .. at this point in time usually nydus will just help me to reach opponents base quicker for a base trade (which you loose most of the time against P/T). Maybe someone better will figure out a practical use for nydus even at high level, what i've seen from Spanishwa so far was quite impressive, but its still to be proven if it works at the very high end (i assume the pros have a reason not to use it: experience). Regarding "Attention is a ressource" .. very true, TLO recently used nuke's just to enforce reaction from his opponent, most of the time they were canceled .. maybe one could use nydus in a similar way .. | ||
|
Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On April 20 2011 01:30 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Well thought and written. Cost@Time is a general principle and often not considered in arguing, that's why zergling speed is one of the most expensive upgrades in the game (if built early on). However i still think that nydus does not scale well with skill, ofc you can do some trickery, however its capped at a certain level (~low to mid master). Regarding late game nydus .. well, nydus won't hold the death ball :-). In order to be effective, you'll probably need it midgame latest. Anyway there might be undiscovered potential not in "sneaky harrass attacks" but to improve army mobility and quick reinforcements on large maps (needs 2+ networks to be effective). However due to the weak and volatile late game zerg army I am mostly occupied holding off the death ball A-move :-) .. at this point in time usually nydus will just help me to reach opponents base quicker for a base trade (which you loose most of the time against P/T). Maybe someone better will figure out a practical use for nydus even at high level, what i've seen from Spanishwa so far was quite impressive, but its still to be proven if it works at the very high end (i assume the pros have a reason not to use it: experience). I agree that holding off the T/P deathball is hard enough, without weakening your main force with nydus play. I don't know the answer, but I think it'll eventually come down to simply being able to weaken the enemy more than you weaken yourself. Maybe that simply means sending cheap units through the nydus with high DPS and picking good targets. Other times it might mean sending your entire force through multiple nydus, and retreating before taking many losses. In both those scenarios your ability to defend against a frontal attack by the deathball back at home may not be lessened much at all. Like every strategy, there are better times to use it than others, even if most of the time the answer might be to not use it all. | ||
|
Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On April 19 2011 16:46 Alpina wrote: Well scouting on those gigantic map does not worth it. Even if I send scout on 9 (which is very early) I won't scout all spawns in time. What about running drones from base - he will just put spine and I am dead for sure. well the same is true for a 6 pool. He wont have scouted you in time either and if he has you know where he is. | ||
|
s4life
Peru1519 Posts
Every pro gets beaten. | ||
|
Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
I will be looking into this more seriously and think it has a lot of merit in becoming a new zerg style. It really feels a lot like the BW zerg builds where you make a skeleton defence force to survive until you have 3-base 5-hatch up and running. | ||
|
rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
Well same goes for winning, that's all my intention. So that is the whole point isn't it? The one baiting flames was actually aderum and not me. There is no need to get overly defensive for Spanishiwas build. In fact it up and foremost proposes a novel opening accompanied by possible follow-ups and transitions. What defines Spanishiwa's personal style is how he excecutes it and which decisions he makes past-gas. With Darkforce and others actually investing time into outlining its weaknesses, it ultimatively works towards strengthening the strategy, and not senseless trashing, unlike many of the defenders believe him to do. | ||
|
mikyaJ
1834 Posts
On April 20 2011 01:23 basedgab wrote: Hi, I have a hard time defending from a 10 or 13 pool against ZvZ, I usually make 2 spines but they end up having too many spedlings/banes. Is there anyway to defend it with this build? Or can someone point me to a ZvZ build to counter their all in speed/bane attack? (im still noob tho) Some small tips: A way you can do to make your Spine Crawlers go a lot farther, is take a couple drones for each spine, and right click on the spine so they surround it... then click hold position. So the Lings will just randomly run around trying to attack the Spine Crawler to no avail... unless they target first drones, but all that time spent for them, your spine crawler will be killing lings. Also you can block off a ramp with two Hold positioned Queens on it. And finally, it's not like you are not allowed to make Lings, although you would optimally not want to build any for this build. If you see your opponent going very early pool, just suck it up and make some lings : / | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On April 20 2011 02:09 Shiladie wrote: You really need to be tip top with your macro for this to work. I decided to try this casually, and defintiely didn't play very well myself when doing it, but noticed I had masses more resources then usual, simply because your bases get saturated so much faster. I will be looking into this more seriously and think it has a lot of merit in becoming a new zerg style. It really feels a lot like the BW zerg builds where you make a skeleton defence force to survive until you have 3-base 5-hatch up and running. I don't think it can become the new Zerg style... It is really easy to recognize which means it is really easy to metagame against. Without gas this style can be abused so hard by Protoss or Terran, not sure about ZvZ. Maybe new style in ZvZ? | ||
|
s4life
Peru1519 Posts
On April 20 2011 02:15 rotegirte wrote: Well same goes for winning, that's all my intention. So that is the whole point isn't it? The one baiting flames was actually aderum and not me. There is no need to get overly defensive for Spanishiwas build. In fact it up and foremost proposes a novel opening accompanied by possible follow-ups and transitions. What defines Spanishiwa's personal style is how he excecutes it and which decisions he makes past-gas. With Darkforce and others actually investing time into outlining its weaknesses, it ultimatively works towards strengthening the strategy, and not senseless trashing, unlike many of the defenders believe him to do. Err.. I thought Darkforce was pretty much condemning the build as something not to be tried when playing against pros, not just outlining its weaknesses. I think he might have been a bit too quick in reaching his conclusions and though I don't condone any personal attacks against him, I sort of understand why people got so defensive. | ||
|
Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On April 20 2011 01:30 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Well thought and written. Cost@Time is a general principle and often not considered in arguing, that's why zergling speed is one of the most expensive upgrades in the game (if built early on). However i still think that nydus does not scale well with skill, ofc you can do some trickery, however its capped at a certain level (~low to mid master). Regarding late game nydus .. well, nydus won't hold the death ball :-). In order to be effective, you'll probably need it midgame latest. Anyway there might be undiscovered potential not in "sneaky harrass attacks" but to improve army mobility and quick reinforcements on large maps (needs 2+ networks to be effective). However due to the weak and volatile late game zerg army I am mostly occupied holding off the death ball A-move :-) .. at this point in time usually nydus will just help me to reach opponents base quicker for a base trade (which you loose most of the time against P/T). Maybe someone better will figure out a practical use for nydus even at high level, what i've seen from Spanishwa so far was quite impressive, but its still to be proven if it works at the very high end (i assume the pros have a reason not to use it: experience). Regarding "Attention is a ressource" .. very true, TLO recently used nuke's just to enforce reaction from his opponent, most of the time they were canceled .. maybe one could use nydus in a similar way .. If you wanted to move out with a deathball and 2 nydus worms poppped in your base, would you move out or prepare to defend? I think you would really stay back, even if your workers can defend it. This means the Zerg can use it to delay the deathball by just building nydus worms without having more than a few lings in it. If one slips through, the lings can do some economic damage, if none slips through, it's just a little more time you got to get into position. Of course that won't always work, people might decide to just move out anyways, but imho it can really work to delay opponents, much like nukes will often force tanks to unsiege. Regarding infested terrans from below. It's a great harass tactic which i've used it several times to great success. On some maps you can get the ITs into his mineral line, but often it's too far away, so you can just throw 10 ITs into the base and kill some buildings and force some units to retreat. Good maps for that are Shattered Temple, Xel'Naga Caverns, Metalopolis and Slag Pits because of the small Mains with easily accessible Cliffs that are not protected from the natural. It really keeps the opponent on his toes and often allows you to move in with your army because half of his is out of position killing energy-only units. | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On April 19 2011 07:59 Skillz_Man wrote: Please read my initial post on the 12 gate 17 cyber 1 zealot 3 stalker pressure... You cannot hold the stalker harass, either you're theorycrafting or you're saying blantant lies. The only way you'll hold is if you make 14-18 lings, and get enough time to make spines, but that leaves your drone count far too low. I'm going off experience, you aren't. Edit: Alright, I just assumed in ZvZ because the map that was on my mind was Scrap Station, but that's probably the wrong build for that map. I am not flaming anyone, Im just saying I have found this build highly unsuccessful, if any pro wants to try my stalker harass tell me how it goes... But Im not too worried about people I play having trouble executing it. On the GSL maps I can totally see this being the new ZvP build, but medium or short distances, I don't see what you can do. Probably upon scouting you can throw down a gas asap and get speed, which nobody has done to me but seems like a legit choice, but staying with the build and not getting speed till that later time seems very suicidal, as it has. Please post replays? | ||
|
RobotBodies
47 Posts
To be fair, I'm not very highly skilled, but these are still issues I face. | ||
|
susiederkins
United States87 Posts
On April 20 2011 03:22 RobotBodies wrote: I've found the build highly susceptible to contains. If a toss 4gates, sees the defenses, then camps outside your natural instead of attacking and expands behind it, he will get ahead of you in five minutes or so while you are struggling to try to break the contain and take a third. For Terran bio into a siege tank hard contain has similar results. The build basically gives up map control for the early and midgame. To be fair, I'm not very highly skilled, but these are still issues I face. If a toss goes for a 4 gate, sees spines, and then tries to expo while soft containing you, he's already wayyyyy behind. I don't mind a toss soft containing me like that, my army will explode past his in just a couple rounds once I hit saturation, and I'm already taking the lead in upgrades and tech. | ||
|
CandyHunterz
Canada66 Posts
| ||
|
Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On April 20 2011 03:22 RobotBodies wrote: I've found the build highly susceptible to contains. If a toss 4gates, sees the defenses, then camps outside your natural instead of attacking and expands behind it, he will get ahead of you in five minutes or so while you are struggling to try to break the contain and take a third. For Terran bio into a siege tank hard contain has similar results. The build basically gives up map control for the early and midgame. To be fair, I'm not very highly skilled, but these are still issues I face. You didn't read the followup of the build. Tech to lair, get drop tech and use it to drop his base => contain hurt him more than you. | ||
|
susiederkins
United States87 Posts
On April 20 2011 04:27 CandyHunterz wrote: i made some variation to this build to fit my playstyle, i found that i was floating on a lot of minerals in the mid game so just by having 2 hatches to pump out lings you still have like at least 400 minerals in the bank to spend. Therefore i add a 3rd inbase hatch after i made all the 4 gases to utilize unit production. Btw, how does spanishiwa drop like that? dropping banelings while overlords are moving? ive seen a lot of pros do it too, do you shift click or something? Select your ovies, hit the drop hotkey and click on the overlord while it's moving rather than a spot on the ground. | ||
| ||
