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On April 18 2011 23:55 Skillz_Man wrote:
I am a protoss player, and I've faced this build now 20-30 times, and wow it's horrible.
Firstly I'll start off with the obvious, pretty much even if you see a 14 gas you'll be checking if a drone is leaving his base, if it is, you can block his expo, place a pylon, whatever. Not being able to place your expo is real bad because your gas hasn't even been started yet, and if decide to go place a hatch at a third it's practically a free win against 4 gate.
But let's take the scenario of you get the 16 hatch off. Once I see a 15-16 hatch and no gas on the way, get zealot out right as cybercore finishes and chrono stalkers constantly (3 stalkers). My first zealot + stalker arrive when your first spine crawler is 2/3 done on Meta cross spawns. Ignore the queen, target down the spine crawler and... And lings do so little because my stalkers can kite because your speed is endlessly delayed. I follow up with a 4 gate off one gas, and you're finished.
I have lost twice against this build with my aggresion style, and it was just a midgame error after we came off very even after the 4 gate. Imo 16 hatch doesn't work at all because the time to get the spine crawler is so narrow, and that's why 15 hatch is a lot more viable. However I do the 12 gate 17 core where my probe production is delayed by about 1-2 seconds when you pair up probes and on close spawns you can do this againsts a standard 15 hatch 14 gas 14 pool.
I would like to see an actual pro doing this as the timings are a little too slow on everything to stand up against a solidly executed protoss agressive build. If anyone wants any replays, I can post some, as well, because the ones in the replays are delayed by 10 seconds are so, and the micro in the 4 gate one wasn't the most amazing either by the toss.
Saying that, I don't want to take away anything from you for creating such a staple build in the ZvX arsenal.
Just to start things off, He does a 13 hatch. Secondly, this build also can work with pool first, take a look at many of spanish's games. The concept is using static defense over a lot of units to defend, and using a lot of queens as support. the exact build order can be changed and alter depending on a persons style. The two main parts is its low amount of units but high level of defense. i would like to say u made 1 valid point here, but honestly u didn't. Look at exhibit A. Spanishiwa beat ROOTminigun(P) 4-3 in a show match. Nuf said.
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I love Spanishiwa's play style. So cool to see players mixing it up with personalized play. I am going to be casting a few of his games today or tomorrow. Cant wait to see how he adapts to his opponents pressure!
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Dam that was a great guide and i think this will be my new ZvT Build, thanks man.
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On April 19 2011 00:20 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
13 hatch?.
is econ damaged or is it compensated by having more larva early?
when you 13 hatch, at what time do you usually pool?
thank you.
Did u even read the OP?
And there are even statistics linked in this thread discussing every pool/hatch opening for zerg.
13h15p btw
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This build is awesome to use when you're playing random and get Zerg. My opponent gets scared and thinks I'm going to cheese or rush him and builds up a lot of defense only to see me power droning. By the time they realize I have nothing but drones, it's too late because I already have enough queens, spine crawlers, to defend any type of small offensive push... followed by gas units.
It makes zerg so much fun to play using this build.
*EDIT* I quickly cancel my 2nd hatchery though if I get 6 pooled though. I can still fend off my main and use a different build order to fight back.
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On April 19 2011 00:38 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 00:20 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
13 hatch?.
is econ damaged or is it compensated by having more larva early?
when you 13 hatch, at what time do you usually pool?
thank you. Did u even read the OP? And there are even statistics linked in this thread discussing every pool/hatch opening for zerg. 13h15p btw
True, sorry. I've been following the thread for weeks now and i forgot completely about the first post and may have missed some pages in the middle.
thanks anyway 
I usually get away with hidding a drone outside my base. They almost always poke in the base first to check for an early pool and when they come out my hatch is already building. Even if i have to cancel a drone egg it is usually better to lose the larva than getting your hatch denied with a pylon.
Another thing is... I've seen even pros scouting within the drone line. If you time it right you can kill the scout in the first pass. Attacking in a surround of 4 or 5 drones the scout dies faster then he can mineral-click his way out. Then he not only is unable to block the expo, he will also not realize you made no gas for some more.
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On April 19 2011 00:22 Kangg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 23:55 Skillz_Man wrote:
I am a protoss player, and I've faced this build now 20-30 times, and wow it's horrible.
Firstly I'll start off with the obvious, pretty much even if you see a 14 gas you'll be checking if a drone is leaving his base, if it is, you can block his expo, place a pylon, whatever. Not being able to place your expo is real bad because your gas hasn't even been started yet, and if decide to go place a hatch at a third it's practically a free win against 4 gate.
But let's take the scenario of you get the 16 hatch off. Once I see a 15-16 hatch and no gas on the way, get zealot out right as cybercore finishes and chrono stalkers constantly (3 stalkers). My first zealot + stalker arrive when your first spine crawler is 2/3 done on Meta cross spawns. Ignore the queen, target down the spine crawler and... And lings do so little because my stalkers can kite because your speed is endlessly delayed. I follow up with a 4 gate off one gas, and you're finished.
I have lost twice against this build with my aggresion style, and it was just a midgame error after we came off very even after the 4 gate. Imo 16 hatch doesn't work at all because the time to get the spine crawler is so narrow, and that's why 15 hatch is a lot more viable. However I do the 12 gate 17 core where my probe production is delayed by about 1-2 seconds when you pair up probes and on close spawns you can do this againsts a standard 15 hatch 14 gas 14 pool.
I would like to see an actual pro doing this as the timings are a little too slow on everything to stand up against a solidly executed protoss agressive build. If anyone wants any replays, I can post some, as well, because the ones in the replays are delayed by 10 seconds are so, and the micro in the 4 gate one wasn't the most amazing either by the toss.
Saying that, I don't want to take away anything from you for creating such a staple build in the ZvX arsenal. Just to start things off, He does a 13 hatch. Secondly, this build also can work with pool first, take a look at many of spanish's games. The concept is using static defense over a lot of units to defend, and using a lot of queens as support. the exact build order can be changed and alter depending on a persons style. The two main parts is its low amount of units but high level of defense. i would like to say u made 1 valid point here, but honestly u didn't. Look at exhibit A. Spanishiwa beat ROOTminigun(P) 4-3 in a show match. Nuf said.
Spanishiwa beat minigun and in some instances even made him look like a fool, which is not an easy achievement with such a good player as minigun. Ofc minigun probably wasn't used to the style so now it might look different, but the matches clearly showed that the build can defend a lot of early pressure.
Every build has it's weaknesses, either in defense or economy, and can be exploited either by being aggressive or expanding. Spanishiwas build starts with an extremely strong economy and makes up for the defense with the beastly Queens.
If you haven't noticed it, Queens are the strongest Tier 1 units of all races. They have the DPS of roaches, can shoot air with quite a big range, can transfuse each other, have more HP than roaches, marauders, zealots and stalkers and they aren't exactly slow on-creep... they don't even cost gas or larva. Did i mention that they are neither light nor armored, so never take extra damage? If they could move even half as fast off-creep they would be extremely imbalanced. Yes, a single Queen is vulnerable, but once you get a pack of 4-5 they can pack quite a punch and delay a lot of pushes until enough lings are out to defend.
Also, with good creep spread, even slowlings are quite fast, so place 3-4 tumors, spread creep as far as possible and you can still surround most pushes with slowlings.
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I love this build, especially in ZvP and ZvZ. ZvT I prefer to use Losira's delayed Lair roach/ling/bling style still, partly becaus eI don't have the APM for all the Nydus/Infestor play (only Plat). Spanishwa is definitely one of my fav up and coming players, he his stream last night was fantastic.
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On April 19 2011 00:22 Kangg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 23:55 Skillz_Man wrote:
I am a protoss player, and I've faced this build now 20-30 times, and wow it's horrible.
Firstly I'll start off with the obvious, pretty much even if you see a 14 gas you'll be checking if a drone is leaving his base, if it is, you can block his expo, place a pylon, whatever. Not being able to place your expo is real bad because your gas hasn't even been started yet, and if decide to go place a hatch at a third it's practically a free win against 4 gate.
But let's take the scenario of you get the 16 hatch off. Once I see a 15-16 hatch and no gas on the way, get zealot out right as cybercore finishes and chrono stalkers constantly (3 stalkers). My first zealot + stalker arrive when your first spine crawler is 2/3 done on Meta cross spawns. Ignore the queen, target down the spine crawler and... And lings do so little because my stalkers can kite because your speed is endlessly delayed. I follow up with a 4 gate off one gas, and you're finished.
I have lost twice against this build with my aggresion style, and it was just a midgame error after we came off very even after the 4 gate. Imo 16 hatch doesn't work at all because the time to get the spine crawler is so narrow, and that's why 15 hatch is a lot more viable. However I do the 12 gate 17 core where my probe production is delayed by about 1-2 seconds when you pair up probes and on close spawns you can do this againsts a standard 15 hatch 14 gas 14 pool.
I would like to see an actual pro doing this as the timings are a little too slow on everything to stand up against a solidly executed protoss agressive build. If anyone wants any replays, I can post some, as well, because the ones in the replays are delayed by 10 seconds are so, and the micro in the 4 gate one wasn't the most amazing either by the toss.
Saying that, I don't want to take away anything from you for creating such a staple build in the ZvX arsenal. Just to start things off, He does a 13 hatch. Secondly, this build also can work with pool first, take a look at many of spanish's games. The concept is using static defense over a lot of units to defend, and using a lot of queens as support. the exact build order can be changed and alter depending on a persons style. The two main parts is its low amount of units but high level of defense. i would like to say u made 1 valid point here, but honestly u didn't. Look at exhibit A. Spanishiwa beat ROOTminigun(P) 4-3 in a show match. Nuf said.
The thing is that he is commenting on _his_ experience against this build on the ladder. Nothing you say makes any of what he less valuable. He's commenting on how he feels the build holds up on the ladder, and the simple fact is that we haven't seen this build used yet in a real competitive setting.
As for my personal experience against people using this: It seems to be extremely vulnerable to early double marine drops in TvZ. The complete lack of scouting, complete lack of map control, makes a 1 rax FE going into fast drops extremely powerful. Especially double dropping both the main and the expo before the 8 minute mark has great succes, because it usually ends up with 2 queens per landing party, or 3 queens on 1 and 1 on the other. Combine it with zerglings being fairly useless if you manage to get your marines in a mineral choke, and not having many lings in the first place. Killing queens at this point is very possible, because they won't have the energy to transfuse. (Spine crawlers are easily avoidable, on the first time you drop for sure).
Then again, both my execution and my opponents execution is far from optimal. Would love to see this tried at a pro-level, but I feel this build has more potential in ZvP (maybe ZvZ) then in TvZ.
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On April 19 2011 00:22 Kangg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 23:55 Skillz_Man wrote:
I am a protoss player, and I've faced this build now 20-30 times, and wow it's horrible.
Firstly I'll start off with the obvious, pretty much even if you see a 14 gas you'll be checking if a drone is leaving his base, if it is, you can block his expo, place a pylon, whatever. Not being able to place your expo is real bad because your gas hasn't even been started yet, and if decide to go place a hatch at a third it's practically a free win against 4 gate.
But let's take the scenario of you get the 16 hatch off. Once I see a 15-16 hatch and no gas on the way, get zealot out right as cybercore finishes and chrono stalkers constantly (3 stalkers). My first zealot + stalker arrive when your first spine crawler is 2/3 done on Meta cross spawns. Ignore the queen, target down the spine crawler and... And lings do so little because my stalkers can kite because your speed is endlessly delayed. I follow up with a 4 gate off one gas, and you're finished.
I have lost twice against this build with my aggresion style, and it was just a midgame error after we came off very even after the 4 gate. Imo 16 hatch doesn't work at all because the time to get the spine crawler is so narrow, and that's why 15 hatch is a lot more viable. However I do the 12 gate 17 core where my probe production is delayed by about 1-2 seconds when you pair up probes and on close spawns you can do this againsts a standard 15 hatch 14 gas 14 pool.
I would like to see an actual pro doing this as the timings are a little too slow on everything to stand up against a solidly executed protoss agressive build. If anyone wants any replays, I can post some, as well, because the ones in the replays are delayed by 10 seconds are so, and the micro in the 4 gate one wasn't the most amazing either by the toss.
Saying that, I don't want to take away anything from you for creating such a staple build in the ZvX arsenal. Just to start things off, He does a 13 hatch. Secondly, this build also can work with pool first, take a look at many of spanish's games. The concept is using static defense over a lot of units to defend, and using a lot of queens as support. the exact build order can be changed and alter depending on a persons style. The two main parts is its low amount of units but high level of defense. i would like to say u made 1 valid point here, but honestly u didn't. Look at exhibit A. Spanishiwa beat ROOTminigun(P) 4-3 in a show match. Nuf said.
Alright, well there's a few points I want to make:
1. He beat Rootminigun 4-3, nothing else. They are both good players but minigun wasn't plating his best, and didn't have the proper responses. It is a good build if your opponent doesn't put on pressure early, which mini didn't do all (most?) games he lost. Overall it's powerful but has a very visible weakness, I found it, if you don't agree with me, no harm done... But I will jeep winning ladder games vs it, I just wanted to share my find.
2. You fail to understand that I attack BEFORE his static defense is up, and it can't get up any sooner. Next - a pool first doesn't prevent this because my stalkers can kite your zerglings, then all that happens is you get contained to one base, and that is the #1 reason for the 14 gas 14 pool build... To prevent that. You say he uses queens to defend... The maximum amount of queens you can have when I attack is two, and creep doesn't join your two bases so you shouldn't be attempting to use that one as support.
3. I'm not sure what level you play at, but going 13 hatch is useless, you cut into your economy so hard that you could rather do a 15 hatch 14 pool 14 gas and be better off. And your statement of this build can be changed depending on a persons style is ridicolous. The only way that is remotely possible if you're playing a famous player, which 99.9% people reading here are not. And gambling a game like that, especially in a non tournament format is too risky.
To be honest, I expected this build to be best in zvp, but I feel like this build has core issues in every match up. Sling runbys in zvz... One base marine play... Versus standard stuff it fairs well, but it's weak to many all-ins, and I think with time player will learn the correct responses to no gas openings.
Anyhow, that is my ladder experience, if you'd like to show me what my opponents are doing wrong feel free to pm me for a game.
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On April 19 2011 07:36 Skillz_Man wrote:
3. I'm not sure what level you play at, but going 13 hatch is useless, you cut into your economy so hard that you could rather do a 15 hatch 14 pool 14 gas and be better off. And your statement of this build can be changed depending on a persons style is ridicolous.
I stopped reading here.
You have absolutely no reason to be dismeaning ("I'm not sure what level you play at"), plus you made yourself looks like a fool.
A 13hatch/15pool is more economic in every way than any other build. Just check the OP for a link to a thread detailling all the reasoning and testing behind this.
Your ladder experience may be that you can crush easily this build, and your input on early aggression is valuable, but what you said was just... Meh.
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On April 19 2011 07:36 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 00:22 Kangg wrote:On April 18 2011 23:55 Skillz_Man wrote:
I am a protoss player, and I've faced this build now 20-30 times, and wow it's horrible.
Firstly I'll start off with the obvious, pretty much even if you see a 14 gas you'll be checking if a drone is leaving his base, if it is, you can block his expo, place a pylon, whatever. Not being able to place your expo is real bad because your gas hasn't even been started yet, and if decide to go place a hatch at a third it's practically a free win against 4 gate.
But let's take the scenario of you get the 16 hatch off. Once I see a 15-16 hatch and no gas on the way, get zealot out right as cybercore finishes and chrono stalkers constantly (3 stalkers). My first zealot + stalker arrive when your first spine crawler is 2/3 done on Meta cross spawns. Ignore the queen, target down the spine crawler and... And lings do so little because my stalkers can kite because your speed is endlessly delayed. I follow up with a 4 gate off one gas, and you're finished.
I have lost twice against this build with my aggresion style, and it was just a midgame error after we came off very even after the 4 gate. Imo 16 hatch doesn't work at all because the time to get the spine crawler is so narrow, and that's why 15 hatch is a lot more viable. However I do the 12 gate 17 core where my probe production is delayed by about 1-2 seconds when you pair up probes and on close spawns you can do this againsts a standard 15 hatch 14 gas 14 pool.
I would like to see an actual pro doing this as the timings are a little too slow on everything to stand up against a solidly executed protoss agressive build. If anyone wants any replays, I can post some, as well, because the ones in the replays are delayed by 10 seconds are so, and the micro in the 4 gate one wasn't the most amazing either by the toss.
Saying that, I don't want to take away anything from you for creating such a staple build in the ZvX arsenal. Just to start things off, He does a 13 hatch. Secondly, this build also can work with pool first, take a look at many of spanish's games. The concept is using static defense over a lot of units to defend, and using a lot of queens as support. the exact build order can be changed and alter depending on a persons style. The two main parts is its low amount of units but high level of defense. i would like to say u made 1 valid point here, but honestly u didn't. Look at exhibit A. Spanishiwa beat ROOTminigun(P) 4-3 in a show match. Nuf said. Alright, well there's a few points I want to make: 1. He beat Rootminigun 4-3, nothing else. They are both good players but minigun wasn't plating his best, and didn't have the proper responses. It is a good build if your opponent doesn't put on pressure early, which mini didn't do all (most?) games he lost. Overall it's powerful but has a very visible weakness, I found it, if you don't agree with me, no harm done... But I will jeep winning ladder games vs it, I just wanted to share my find. 2. You fail to understand that I attack BEFORE his static defense is up, and it can't get up any sooner. Next - a pool first doesn't prevent this because my stalkers can kite your zerglings, then all that happens is you get contained to one base, and that is the #1 reason for the 14 gas 14 pool build... To prevent that. You say he uses queens to defend... The maximum amount of queens you can have when I attack is two, and creep doesn't join your two bases so you shouldn't be attempting to use that one as support. 3. I'm not sure what level you play at, but going 13 hatch is useless, you cut into your economy so hard that you could rather do a 15 hatch 14 pool 14 gas and be better off. And your statement of this build can be changed depending on a persons style is ridicolous. The only way that is remotely possible if you're playing a famous player, which 99.9% people reading here are not. And gambling a game like that, especially in a non tournament format is too risky. To be honest, I expected this build to be best in zvp, but I feel like this build has core issues in every match up. Sling runbys in zvz... One base marine play... Versus standard stuff it fairs well, but it's weak to many all-ins, and I think with time player will learn the correct responses to no gas openings. Anyhow, that is my ladder experience, if you'd like to show me what my opponents are doing wrong feel free to pm me for a game.
Sling run bys are not a problem with this build... do you wonder why he has the 2 queens on his ramp? and how do you plan to attack before static defense is up when his spines are in time for both 4 gate and 6 gate, i just don't see how you can read without reading the op... The op states "13 hatch 15 pool is slightly less efficient IF YOU HAVE TO MAKE EARLY LINGS", seconds how are you going to come into an op and flame the person who made it. Also how did minigun play poorly or respond is a bad way when he even stated he read this thread..... And from his stream he has enough queens to stop the "stalker harass" that you claim will end games. Ever consider the people that are using it versus you just aren't as good at the build? I mean making a blind statement without reading the op is one thing but then flaming it is another. But every play style has a weakness and i am pretty sure it isn't as glairing as you think. Also, he did it versus alot of the P on VT on bitters stream and he wasn't exploited in ways you talk about so idk.
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On April 19 2011 07:53 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 07:36 Skillz_Man wrote:On April 19 2011 00:22 Kangg wrote:On April 18 2011 23:55 Skillz_Man wrote:
I am a protoss player, and I've faced this build now 20-30 times, and wow it's horrible.
Firstly I'll start off with the obvious, pretty much even if you see a 14 gas you'll be checking if a drone is leaving his base, if it is, you can block his expo, place a pylon, whatever. Not being able to place your expo is real bad because your gas hasn't even been started yet, and if decide to go place a hatch at a third it's practically a free win against 4 gate.
But let's take the scenario of you get the 16 hatch off. Once I see a 15-16 hatch and no gas on the way, get zealot out right as cybercore finishes and chrono stalkers constantly (3 stalkers). My first zealot + stalker arrive when your first spine crawler is 2/3 done on Meta cross spawns. Ignore the queen, target down the spine crawler and... And lings do so little because my stalkers can kite because your speed is endlessly delayed. I follow up with a 4 gate off one gas, and you're finished.
I have lost twice against this build with my aggresion style, and it was just a midgame error after we came off very even after the 4 gate. Imo 16 hatch doesn't work at all because the time to get the spine crawler is so narrow, and that's why 15 hatch is a lot more viable. However I do the 12 gate 17 core where my probe production is delayed by about 1-2 seconds when you pair up probes and on close spawns you can do this againsts a standard 15 hatch 14 gas 14 pool.
I would like to see an actual pro doing this as the timings are a little too slow on everything to stand up against a solidly executed protoss agressive build. If anyone wants any replays, I can post some, as well, because the ones in the replays are delayed by 10 seconds are so, and the micro in the 4 gate one wasn't the most amazing either by the toss.
Saying that, I don't want to take away anything from you for creating such a staple build in the ZvX arsenal. Just to start things off, He does a 13 hatch. Secondly, this build also can work with pool first, take a look at many of spanish's games. The concept is using static defense over a lot of units to defend, and using a lot of queens as support. the exact build order can be changed and alter depending on a persons style. The two main parts is its low amount of units but high level of defense. i would like to say u made 1 valid point here, but honestly u didn't. Look at exhibit A. Spanishiwa beat ROOTminigun(P) 4-3 in a show match. Nuf said. Alright, well there's a few points I want to make: 1. He beat Rootminigun 4-3, nothing else. They are both good players but minigun wasn't plating his best, and didn't have the proper responses. It is a good build if your opponent doesn't put on pressure early, which mini didn't do all (most?) games he lost. Overall it's powerful but has a very visible weakness, I found it, if you don't agree with me, no harm done... But I will jeep winning ladder games vs it, I just wanted to share my find. 2. You fail to understand that I attack BEFORE his static defense is up, and it can't get up any sooner. Next - a pool first doesn't prevent this because my stalkers can kite your zerglings, then all that happens is you get contained to one base, and that is the #1 reason for the 14 gas 14 pool build... To prevent that. You say he uses queens to defend... The maximum amount of queens you can have when I attack is two, and creep doesn't join your two bases so you shouldn't be attempting to use that one as support. 3. I'm not sure what level you play at, but going 13 hatch is useless, you cut into your economy so hard that you could rather do a 15 hatch 14 pool 14 gas and be better off. And your statement of this build can be changed depending on a persons style is ridicolous. The only way that is remotely possible if you're playing a famous player, which 99.9% people reading here are not. And gambling a game like that, especially in a non tournament format is too risky. To be honest, I expected this build to be best in zvp, but I feel like this build has core issues in every match up. Sling runbys in zvz... One base marine play... Versus standard stuff it fairs well, but it's weak to many all-ins, and I think with time player will learn the correct responses to no gas openings. Anyhow, that is my ladder experience, if you'd like to show me what my opponents are doing wrong feel free to pm me for a game. Sling run bys are not a problem with this build... do you wonder why he has the 2 queens on his ramp? and how do you plan to attack before static defense is up when his spines are in time for both 4 gate and 6 gate, i just don't see how you can read without reading the op... The op states "13 hatch 15 pool is slightly less efficient IF YOU HAVE TO MAKE EARLY LINGS", seconds how are you going to come into an op and flame the person who made it. Also how did minigun play poorly or respond is a bad way when he even stated he read this thread..... And from his stream he has enough queens to stop the "stalker harass" that you claim will end games. Ever consider the people that are using it versus you just aren't as good at the build? I mean making a blind statement without reading the op is one thing but then flaming it is another. But every play style has a weakness and i am pretty sure it isn't as glairing as you think. Also, he did it versus alot of the P on VT on bitters stream and he wasn't exploited in ways you talk about so idk.
Please read my initial post on the 12 gate 17 cyber 1 zealot 3 stalker pressure... You cannot hold the stalker harass, either you're theorycrafting or you're saying blantant lies. The only way you'll hold is if you make 14-18 lings, and get enough time to make spines, but that leaves your drone count far too low. I'm going off experience, you aren't.
Edit: Alright, I just assumed in ZvZ because the map that was on my mind was Scrap Station, but that's probably the wrong build for that map.
I am not flaming anyone, Im just saying I have found this build highly unsuccessful, if any pro wants to try my stalker harass tell me how it goes... But Im not too worried about people I play having trouble executing it. On the GSL maps I can totally see this being the new ZvP build, but medium or short distances, I don't see what you can do. Probably upon scouting you can throw down a gas asap and get speed, which nobody has done to me but seems like a legit choice, but staying with the build and not getting speed till that later time seems very suicidal, as it has.
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On April 19 2011 07:59 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 07:53 Yamulo wrote:On April 19 2011 07:36 Skillz_Man wrote:On April 19 2011 00:22 Kangg wrote:On April 18 2011 23:55 Skillz_Man wrote:
I am a protoss player, and I've faced this build now 20-30 times, and wow it's horrible.
Firstly I'll start off with the obvious, pretty much even if you see a 14 gas you'll be checking if a drone is leaving his base, if it is, you can block his expo, place a pylon, whatever. Not being able to place your expo is real bad because your gas hasn't even been started yet, and if decide to go place a hatch at a third it's practically a free win against 4 gate.
But let's take the scenario of you get the 16 hatch off. Once I see a 15-16 hatch and no gas on the way, get zealot out right as cybercore finishes and chrono stalkers constantly (3 stalkers). My first zealot + stalker arrive when your first spine crawler is 2/3 done on Meta cross spawns. Ignore the queen, target down the spine crawler and... And lings do so little because my stalkers can kite because your speed is endlessly delayed. I follow up with a 4 gate off one gas, and you're finished.
I have lost twice against this build with my aggresion style, and it was just a midgame error after we came off very even after the 4 gate. Imo 16 hatch doesn't work at all because the time to get the spine crawler is so narrow, and that's why 15 hatch is a lot more viable. However I do the 12 gate 17 core where my probe production is delayed by about 1-2 seconds when you pair up probes and on close spawns you can do this againsts a standard 15 hatch 14 gas 14 pool.
I would like to see an actual pro doing this as the timings are a little too slow on everything to stand up against a solidly executed protoss agressive build. If anyone wants any replays, I can post some, as well, because the ones in the replays are delayed by 10 seconds are so, and the micro in the 4 gate one wasn't the most amazing either by the toss.
Saying that, I don't want to take away anything from you for creating such a staple build in the ZvX arsenal. Just to start things off, He does a 13 hatch. Secondly, this build also can work with pool first, take a look at many of spanish's games. The concept is using static defense over a lot of units to defend, and using a lot of queens as support. the exact build order can be changed and alter depending on a persons style. The two main parts is its low amount of units but high level of defense. i would like to say u made 1 valid point here, but honestly u didn't. Look at exhibit A. Spanishiwa beat ROOTminigun(P) 4-3 in a show match. Nuf said. Alright, well there's a few points I want to make: 1. He beat Rootminigun 4-3, nothing else. They are both good players but minigun wasn't plating his best, and didn't have the proper responses. It is a good build if your opponent doesn't put on pressure early, which mini didn't do all (most?) games he lost. Overall it's powerful but has a very visible weakness, I found it, if you don't agree with me, no harm done... But I will jeep winning ladder games vs it, I just wanted to share my find. 2. You fail to understand that I attack BEFORE his static defense is up, and it can't get up any sooner. Next - a pool first doesn't prevent this because my stalkers can kite your zerglings, then all that happens is you get contained to one base, and that is the #1 reason for the 14 gas 14 pool build... To prevent that. You say he uses queens to defend... The maximum amount of queens you can have when I attack is two, and creep doesn't join your two bases so you shouldn't be attempting to use that one as support. 3. I'm not sure what level you play at, but going 13 hatch is useless, you cut into your economy so hard that you could rather do a 15 hatch 14 pool 14 gas and be better off. And your statement of this build can be changed depending on a persons style is ridicolous. The only way that is remotely possible if you're playing a famous player, which 99.9% people reading here are not. And gambling a game like that, especially in a non tournament format is too risky. To be honest, I expected this build to be best in zvp, but I feel like this build has core issues in every match up. Sling runbys in zvz... One base marine play... Versus standard stuff it fairs well, but it's weak to many all-ins, and I think with time player will learn the correct responses to no gas openings. Anyhow, that is my ladder experience, if you'd like to show me what my opponents are doing wrong feel free to pm me for a game. Sling run bys are not a problem with this build... do you wonder why he has the 2 queens on his ramp? and how do you plan to attack before static defense is up when his spines are in time for both 4 gate and 6 gate, i just don't see how you can read without reading the op... The op states "13 hatch 15 pool is slightly less efficient IF YOU HAVE TO MAKE EARLY LINGS", seconds how are you going to come into an op and flame the person who made it. Also how did minigun play poorly or respond is a bad way when he even stated he read this thread..... And from his stream he has enough queens to stop the "stalker harass" that you claim will end games. Ever consider the people that are using it versus you just aren't as good at the build? I mean making a blind statement without reading the op is one thing but then flaming it is another. But every play style has a weakness and i am pretty sure it isn't as glairing as you think. Also, he did it versus alot of the P on VT on bitters stream and he wasn't exploited in ways you talk about so idk. Please read my initial post on the 12 gate 17 cyber 1 zealot 3 stalker pressure... You cannot hold the stalker harass, either you're theorycrafting or you're saying blantant lies. The only way you'll hold is if you make 14-18 lings, and get enough time to make spines, but that leaves your drone count far too low. I'm going off experience, you aren't. Edit: Alright, I just assumed in ZvZ because the map that was on my mind was Scrap Station, but that's probably the wrong build for that map. I am not flaming anyone, Im just saying I have found this build highly unsuccessful, if any pro wants to try my stalker harass tell me how it goes... But Im not too worried about people I play having trouble executing it. On the GSL maps I can totally see this being the new ZvP build, but medium or short distances, I don't see what you can do. Probably upon scouting you can throw down a gas asap and get speed, which nobody has done to me but seems like a legit choice, but staying with the build and not getting speed till that later time seems very suicidal, as it has.
1 Zealot
3 Stalkers
vs
2 Queens (with 2 more on the way)
4-8 Slowlings
1 Spinecrawler in production
Do you assume the Zerg doesn't scout and only builds defenses when you are in his base?
He can't kill your attack as his units are at that stage too slow, but he can definatly repel it, popssibly even without losing a single drone.
Just because his lings are slow doesn't mean they stay in his base. Any good player will have a ling sitting in front of your base and one on the way (if available, close to a watchtower)
Also, at that time the bases are already connected by creep (or only have a small gap) as the initial queens immedatly place creep tumors.
Ofc it looks different on some maps with a far away natural, like scap station (can't think of any other atm), but then again not every build works on every map equally well.
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Hey nice guide!
Wondering is it possible to hold 6-8 pool when he take like 5 drones together on map like terminus or something gigantic?
When I tried, zerglings where nowhere near completion and his 6 lings + 5 drones kills all my drones.
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On April 19 2011 15:29 Alpina wrote:
Hey nice guide!
Wondering is it possible to hold 6-8 pool when he take like 5 drones together on map like terminus or something gigantic?
When I tried, zerglings where nowhere near completion and his 6 lings + 5 drones kills all my drones.
Only with insane micro. Almost any fast expand is very weak against 6-8 pool + drone/spine all-in, the only defense is scouting it in time and getting the pool ASAP.
IIRC he writes in the OP that the best solution would probably to run your drones to the center of the map and delay his drones while kiting his lings until your pool is done, though i don't think that it would work that well. Haven't tried it yet, the only time i encountered an 8pool+spine all-in build i died to it horribly (only to get a PM with "pwned" after i GGed) - though that was on Xel'Naga.
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On April 19 2011 16:05 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 15:29 Alpina wrote:
Hey nice guide!
Wondering is it possible to hold 6-8 pool when he take like 5 drones together on map like terminus or something gigantic?
When I tried, zerglings where nowhere near completion and his 6 lings + 5 drones kills all my drones. Only with insane micro. Almost any fast expand is very weak against 6-8 pool + drone/spine all-in, the only defense is scouting it in time and getting the pool ASAP. IIRC he writes in the OP that the best solution would probably to run your drones to the center of the map and delay his drones while kiting his lings until your pool is done, though i don't think that it would work that well. Haven't tried it yet, the only time i encountered an 8pool+spine all-in build i died to it horribly (only to get a PM with "pwned" after i GGed) - though that was on Xel'Naga.
Well scouting on those gigantic map does not worth it. Even if I send scout on 9 (which is very early) I won't scout all spawns in time.
What about running drones from base - he will just put spine and I am dead for sure.
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How is this viable at high Masters? Your 16 hatch will get blocked 80% of the time ^^ There is always expansion harassment / delaying of your expo-hatch? Maybe this was addressed already but I didn't see it in the couple pages I scanned through.
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On April 19 2011 07:36 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 00:22 Kangg wrote:On April 18 2011 23:55 Skillz_Man wrote:
I am a protoss player, and I've faced this build now 20-30 times, and wow it's horrible.
Firstly I'll start off with the obvious, pretty much even if you see a 14 gas you'll be checking if a drone is leaving his base, if it is, you can block his expo, place a pylon, whatever. Not being able to place your expo is real bad because your gas hasn't even been started yet, and if decide to go place a hatch at a third it's practically a free win against 4 gate.
But let's take the scenario of you get the 16 hatch off. Once I see a 15-16 hatch and no gas on the way, get zealot out right as cybercore finishes and chrono stalkers constantly (3 stalkers). My first zealot + stalker arrive when your first spine crawler is 2/3 done on Meta cross spawns. Ignore the queen, target down the spine crawler and... And lings do so little because my stalkers can kite because your speed is endlessly delayed. I follow up with a 4 gate off one gas, and you're finished.
I have lost twice against this build with my aggresion style, and it was just a midgame error after we came off very even after the 4 gate. Imo 16 hatch doesn't work at all because the time to get the spine crawler is so narrow, and that's why 15 hatch is a lot more viable. However I do the 12 gate 17 core where my probe production is delayed by about 1-2 seconds when you pair up probes and on close spawns you can do this againsts a standard 15 hatch 14 gas 14 pool.
I would like to see an actual pro doing this as the timings are a little too slow on everything to stand up against a solidly executed protoss agressive build. If anyone wants any replays, I can post some, as well, because the ones in the replays are delayed by 10 seconds are so, and the micro in the 4 gate one wasn't the most amazing either by the toss.
Saying that, I don't want to take away anything from you for creating such a staple build in the ZvX arsenal. Just to start things off, He does a 13 hatch. Secondly, this build also can work with pool first, take a look at many of spanish's games. The concept is using static defense over a lot of units to defend, and using a lot of queens as support. the exact build order can be changed and alter depending on a persons style. The two main parts is its low amount of units but high level of defense. i would like to say u made 1 valid point here, but honestly u didn't. Look at exhibit A. Spanishiwa beat ROOTminigun(P) 4-3 in a show match. Nuf said. Alright, well there's a few points I want to make: 1. He beat Rootminigun 4-3, nothing else. They are both good players but minigun wasn't plating his best, and didn't have the proper responses. It is a good build if your opponent doesn't put on pressure early, which mini didn't do all (most?) games he lost. Overall it's powerful but has a very visible weakness, I found it, if you don't agree with me, no harm done... But I will jeep winning ladder games vs it, I just wanted to share my find. 2. You fail to understand that I attack BEFORE his static defense is up, and it can't get up any sooner. Next - a pool first doesn't prevent this because my stalkers can kite your zerglings, then all that happens is you get contained to one base, and that is the #1 reason for the 14 gas 14 pool build... To prevent that. You say he uses queens to defend... The maximum amount of queens you can have when I attack is two, and creep doesn't join your two bases so you shouldn't be attempting to use that one as support. 3. I'm not sure what level you play at, but going 13 hatch is useless, you cut into your economy so hard that you could rather do a 15 hatch 14 pool 14 gas and be better off. And your statement of this build can be changed depending on a persons style is ridicolous. The only way that is remotely possible if you're playing a famous player, which 99.9% people reading here are not. And gambling a game like that, especially in a non tournament format is too risky. To be honest, I expected this build to be best in zvp, but I feel like this build has core issues in every match up. Sling runbys in zvz... One base marine play... Versus standard stuff it fairs well, but it's weak to many all-ins, and I think with time player will learn the correct responses to no gas openings. Anyhow, that is my ladder experience, if you'd like to show me what my opponents are doing wrong feel free to pm me for a game.
Wow, so confused... When reading your third point it gets so obvious that you're playing at a lower league yourself and you try to prove points by first of all just stating that you rape the build (for all we know you're a copper player) and that there is nothing the "build" can do since it's a build that can't adapt - which is the exact opposite. You understand that the 13 hatch is made to avoid a pylonblock right, meaning you cut the losses of having a suboptimal hatchtiming in favor of actually beeing able to plant it. Duh...
You assume so many stupid things like slowlings chasing stalkers off creep, main hatch queen not moving down to support your pressure (as if he didnt see you move out..)
If you put pressure on with 1 zeal and 3 stalkers and dont win outright you will get overrunned shortly after. If you 4-gate it will be extremly weak, if you try to expand you will not have enough sentries, if you go stargate tech you're playing into the hands of the build.
What you're basically saying is that all-ining is effective vs this build, and yes ofc it can be if the opponent isnt prepared, which is why scouting is so extremly key with this build and also understanding what the information you gain actually means so you can respond correctly.
It's extremly funny that you argue that this build wont hold versus aggressive protoss builds from pro players. It's almost as if you ignore the fact that Spanishiwa is in grandmasters league and face off versus what you'd call "pro players" on a daily basis and beat them. You also argue that Minigun didnt play very well or didnt play very aggressive in the games that Spanishiwa won which is just not true at all. First three games were all very aggressive, first game was just messy, but it ended up beeing a 4-gate. Second game he put pressure on with early zealot stalker and 3-gate expanded, third game he DT "rushed".
Disregarding the fact that you say that minigun didnt play his best, you could argue the exact same for Spanishiwa - if you assume that he played his absolute best when you argue the point that Minigun didnt you're working with the wrong premisses and your argument falls flat. Also this argument is pretty much impossible to use to prove if a build is good or bad since you will never know if both players are equally skilled or play at their maximum level.
Bah, shouldnt feed the trolloL..:<
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on spanish' stream yesterday against a very high level terran, it was visible what some of the pro's stated often before: This build won't work at very high level that good.
The terran mass expanded and had no problem taking down nydusses in time, he detected them too quickly and spanish wasted a lot of mins and gas for nydus. Also the T spread out his units to take nydus/drops down quickly. He then moved to drop harrass until he got that 10+ tanks terran death ball.
Seems at a certain level (very high), players have very quick reaction times and excellent minimap awareness, nydus gets useless pretty much.
This is quite logical, as you can't "improve" nydus play by your skill. A nydus attack executed by a gold player is similar effective as executed by a high level player. Its success depends on opponents skill to detect and react quickly, so nydus effectivity gets weaker the more skilled your opponent is and you have no way to make nydus more strong by your own skill.
Ofc the concept of mineral heavy opening is not bound that much to nydus play, but if you invest in a lot of queens, nydus is important to get agressive with mass queens. Without nydus/drop, a good part of your army (queens) is defense only, which is a strategic weakness.
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EPT
